Replace LFR with 5-mans

[Deleted]

You must be high.

Many, many of the active users on MMO-C consider themselves hardcore and look how many complaints you see here daily.
It was hardcore players that QQ'd about leveling taking too long and how they wanted to be max level ASAP so they could raid.

Hardcore players don't complain.... oh Jesus... my sides hurt. I forget that casual and bad players are the greatest blight ever known to mankind. How silly of me.

Let me tell you a story that is going to blow your brains out like the end of "The Sixth Sense". (you NEVER expect the good guy to actually be the bad guy right).

Once upon a time...World of Warcraft for TEN YEARS
And then suddenly war cries from all over the world demanding epics were heard. So the people were showered with the best looking Purply Epics ingame without any kind of effort. (seriously Pokémon is harder than this...and kids learn the name of 100 little pets in the process).

For some casuals this was the best news ever. For other casuals it meant NO MORE incentive to continue playing after LFR because they already had the best looking gear set ingame. And a true casual don't give a dam about item level or numbers or math so...why raid past LFR?
/logout

Now you tell me who is the snowflake in this story. Who is the bad guy?
People demanding a team based mechanic to go solo with purple rewards with the best looks ever?
Or....World of Warcraft for TEN YEARS.

No one is asking to remove LFR. It is here to stay and we ALL feel fine about it, but please...scale the rewards.
Just scale them to the skill required for the content (aka tourist mode).

[Ronduwil]

And then suddenly war cries from all over the world demanding epics were heard. So the people were showered with the best looking Purply Epics ingame without any kind of effort. (seriously Pokémon is harder than this...and kids learn the name of 100 little pets in the process).

Except this is totally fictional. Aside from one out of context quote indicating that raids should be available to all, I have yet to see one casual who demanded LFR. Most casuals I'm aware of would trade LFR for 5-mans any day of the week. The change was made so that Blizzard could spend the time they used to devote to 5-man dungeons on raids instead. That wasn't for the sake of casuals. That was for the sake of raiders.

For some casuals this was the best news ever. For other casuals it meant NO MORE incentive to continue playing after LFR because they already had the best looking gear set ingame.

I'm amazed that you still think this when you yourself posted an actual LFR item to illustrate a point you were trying to make about how crappy LFR items should look. Seriously, even the best players in the game who have collected full heroics are transmogging their gear to WotLK and BC-era raid gear. The look and feel of the gear has gone completely downhill since those eras, so that incentive for "the best looking gear in the game" was gone long before LFR.

And a true casual don't give a dam about item level or numbers or math so...why raid past LFR?

Actually, most casuals do care about that, which is the only reason they raid LFR. Also, have you even tried LFR lately? For the most part it's a wipefest. After despairing of Monday night LFR last night I decided to list for Flex instead. The runs took half the time and gave better ilevel gear to boot. So there's your answer to "why raid past LFR?"

Now you tell me who is the snowflake in this story. Who is the bad guy?

I would say that it's the former subscriber refusing to play because others are being given access to their inferior and unwanted toys. I'm sure you have a different answer.

People demanding a team based mechanic to go solo with purple rewards with the best looks ever?
Or....World of Warcraft for TEN YEARS.

I'd like to point out that TWO of those TEN years included LFR. Also, many of those ten years gave people access to purple rewards via heroic dungeons, frost badges, justice points, and/or valor points. Blizzard didn't emphasize LFR as the end game until they made the stupid decision to put all purple gear into raids and none into dungeons.

No one is asking to remove LFR. It is here to stay and we ALL feel fine about it, but please...scale the rewards. Just scale them to the skill required for the content (aka tourist mode).

44 ilevels of difference is scaled enough, don't you think? Consider that Cataclysm gear ranged from 346 blues to 410 heroics by the end. That's 64 ilevels difference total for the entire expansion. A heroic raider is literally doing twice the damage with the same rotation as a LFR geared player. Don't believe me? Compare BiS DPS with LFR DPS. How much more scaling do you want? The LFR crowd is already handicapped because most of them aren't running optimal rotations, so their actual DPS is even less than half, and often as little as a fifth of a heroic geared player. Many games (bowling for instance) give lesser skilled players a handicap boost to be able to compete with the more skilled ones. MMOs are one of the few games that do the opposite, but apparently a 100% buff over lesser skilled players isn't enough for you. Also, how do you know what the difficulty is when you haven't even played it? I'd like to see Preach rerun his stupid experiment in Monday night LFR, especially in SOO. It's a veritable wipe fest in there these days. Instead he went in at the start of the expansion when all the current raiders were running through the same LFRs for the sake of catchup. Now there are many different LFRs to pick from, and most of the raiders aren't even running them any more. Flex is their new catchup mechanic.

TLDR - Play or don't. But please quit complaining about content that you have never experienced except through hearsay.

[Deleted]

-Lol you just told me LFR was made for the sake of raiders and not casuals ^^
-Ofcourse you are transmoging the gear because everyone and their mothers have them, everyone would look the same. The designs of LFR and rading in general got raped and are now identical of finding a caterpie in tall grass.
-ok
-Those "epics" you are talking about, found on heroics, had different designs and werent part of any kind of epic set.
-All i saw on this paragraph were numbers, item level and math. As a casual players i dont care about such things. I will play LFR, get full epic tiered, look awesome and leave the game as always.

[Golden]

LOL you are out of touch with reality here....LFR was not created to slow sub loss.....if anything it has encouraged sub loss. people see end content and unsub like MANY on these exact forums have said they do since LFR was created.

If you compare the number of people who subscribe to WoW to the number of people that visit this forum or the official forum, it's less than 5%. Trying to use the viewpoints of these forums as a representation of WoW players is not very compelling evidence.

"Late in the cycle of Cataclysm, we introduced Raid Finder, which provided a new type of content to players who historically weren’t raiders. We’re at the part of the lifespan of the game where some original features no longer have the cachet they used to -- you can only roll up so many alts, and by this point you might very well be done with achievements or convinced yourself that that type of gameplay isn’t for you. When we can offer a whole new way to play the game -- in this case provide raids to non-raiders -- it’s a big win."
Ghostcrawler, Official Forums, 3/7/12

Q: Why the absolute focus on casual gaming?
"Back in vanilla, a lot of our players were content just to level characters. just leveling was a huge commitment. In later expansions, even though players reached max level pretty quickly, they could still go back and level an alt. But even if you love alts, there are only so many you are willing to level before you're kind of done with it. LK brought achievements, which again provided some amount of content for a lot of players, but just adding new achievements only provides so much additional content. So in Cataclysm and MoP we decided to bring a lot of players into raiding, which is one of the most epic and rewarding experiences in WoW. It was a pretty successful endeavor."
Live Developer Q&A, 4/25/13

Q: The need for real cooperation made WoW great; now absent before normal mode raiding. LFG/LFR == "RaidVille"
"A small percentage of players cooperated. Most just leveled and then rolled an alt or stopped playing."
Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 4/2/13

Q: I quit this game, it will never be what it use to be. I've come to this realization. Casuals ruined it.
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 1/20/13

Q: Casual players can't expect to get everything spoon feeded just because they pay for it tbh.
"Yet you can demand content that is up to your skill level? Why? I mean, they have as much right to demand content fit to their skill level as you have to demand content at your skill level. If one argument is valid, there's no reasonable way to say the other argument isn't just as valid (if you do, then you're basically arguing that you are more valuable than other players)."
Draztal, Official Forums, 7/4/12

Q: I love LFR. LFR QQ only comes from elitiests who think that there are a lot more of them than there actually is!
"I would not have phrased it so harshly, but I do agree many raiders don't understand how hardcore their perceptions really are."
Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/24/13

Q: This guy gets it. You don't make people better players by smoothing to road for them. You do it by handing them a shovel and saying "here's the tools, fix it yourself".
"That's an unfortunately common outlook, that if you just made stuff harder for people they'd aspire to greatness. But we know that's not how it works for everyone, or how all people respond to challenges, or necessarily what everyone is even looking for in their entertainment. We're getting into social commentary territory which I'd like to avoid, but let's dismiss the notion that any of us "know what's best" for any other person, and instead accept their preferences as absolutely valid, and think and discuss about what the issues and solutions are from that viewpoint instead of focusing on how to tell other people they're enjoying their game incorrectly.
Bashiok, Official Forums, 9/27/13

Q: I'd like to see 4 difficulties for dungeons. Leveling, Max Level, Heroic Max Level, and Challenge. Epics for H mode like TBC.
"Yeah, we think tough heroics could work so long as they aren't the only route to gearing for LFR and flex raiding.
Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 8/19/13

[Dormie]

I'd rather them be 10 mans than 5 mans. I hate 25 man, it's just a mob of people zerging stuff.

[ninedogger]

It would be much more beneficial to just have LFR changed to flex. No more waiting hours for a tank or healer.

[Ronduwil]

-Those "epics" you are talking about, found on heroics, had different designs and werent part of any kind of epic set.

Look again:

Oh ok then. If you agree gear means Nothing then you would totally agree with the changing of gear designs of LFR.
Lets say to...like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=86908

You would have absolutely no problem with this, since gear means nothing to you or anyone. Why cant LFR gear have this designs and the normal raiding drop normal cool looking epics?

I cut out the other pieces to avoid confusion, but that is a piece straight out of LFR. It drops off the end boss for ToES.

-All i saw on this paragraph were numbers, item level and math. As a casual players i dont care about such things. I will play LFR, get full epic tiered, look awesome and leave the game as always.

You won't look awesome; you'll look so crappy that you even mistook a raiding piece for heroic dungeon gear. You'll have half the DPS as a heroic raider, and you'll push into Flex like most other casuals these days. How are you so certain of what casuals want?

[slipn]

Blizzard’s time invested in tuning raids for LFR should be reallocated into tuning them for 5-man versions of the instances instead.

Back in the day, casuals ran 5-mans, and we liked it.

I do agree that LFR needs some serious work done but 5mans? sure they were fun in bc and wrath but 15man ubrs and 10man scholo will always have the warmest place in my heart. With 20 man raids coming in I believe this is the perfect time to bring back 10/15man runs! Make them easier yet still fun. A true core element to the raid/expansion story.

[Krazzorx]

This is my thinking too really. WoW just got too big. It's impossible to consider that EVERY player it has is someone that is interested in what an MMO is.
It's kinda like raiding. Blizzard seem intent on funneling everyone into a raid of some description. The problem with that is that not everyone is a raider. That's been true since Vanilla. People busied themselves with leveling more than anything else in Vanilla. Mostly because it was a bit of a grind but still. The amount of us that actually raided past Molten Core was a very tiny part of the growing population. I met people in Vanilla that didn't even know what a raid was. But they were happy to level and work through every zone.

The game needs paths of progression that don't involve raiding. Actual meaningful alternatives. Casual players can be some of the most skilled players out there yet people assume they're bad players for some reason. Hell, I raided hardcore from Vanilla up to Sunwell in TBC. I burnt myself out pretty hard and haven't raided hardcore since. I'm as casual as they come these days but I know how to play my class and play it well. I feel like I've gone off on a tangent here lol

And that's what they've strongly hinted at what they are doing because that is the problem with LFR. LFR itself isn't a problem, its that there are no casual alternatives to gearing and not everyone enjoys LFR. Some do, but not all. And that's their only option right now.

We have a GC tweet that says "doing LFR for weeks and months isnt very compelling gameplay. It should show people content and some gear." Also a variety of statements at Blizzcon referring to how they now consider it tourist mode.

We also know that they said there will be alternatives to heroic dungeons.

While we don't know what exactly it will look like, it does seem like they will keep LFR relevant but bring other game modes up to its gear levels.

[lmaotsetung]

Geez another Keyboard turning noob b*tching and moaning about LFR....move along kids, nothing to see here

[Traveler Voltin]

remove heroic raiding.

[Pony Soldier]

I would't mind this and Dom's idea of making it a 1 player scenario wouldn't be bad either. Just as long as I get to at least experience the raid while also getting some upgradable gear out of it. But knowing this community, people will still complain about how casuals are still getting good gear by doing easy content because of how big their epeen is, so it won't solve that, I don't think anything can.

[schwank05]

I would love if they just scrapped LFR all together and just made a shit load of 5 mans instead.

[siskokid21]

5 man raids will only make welfare LFR gear quicker and easier to get.

[DDKingg]

5 man raids will only make welfare LFR gear quicker and easier to get.

And why would that be a bad thing?

Think about a fresh 90 who wants to raid normal or even flex mode (like me) to accomplish more than simply facerolling Garrosh in LFR. So to get in a Flex run requires around 530 ilvl (or more for dps). You get what 2 items a week from LFR at 528, 1 535 piece from TI, 522 gear from valor (less than one piece a week), and that's it. So it realistically takes over 2 months just to have the gear to start a Flex mode raid, not to mention NEVER getting into a normal mode raid which usually requires 550+.

Cata was the best. New 5 mans gave everyone the gear to confidently start in DS and you could farm the shit out of them. perfect.

[Warlord Booty]

Back in the day, casuals ran 5-mans, and we liked it.

Casuals didn't run dungeons back in the day. They did not like it.

No one likes dungeons now. Maybe the first couple times, but then it becomes a burdensome faceroll. At least, that's the impression I get on the internets.

[BrerBear]

Turning all raid encounters into solo tank, mechanic restricted versions wouldn't just be a waste of time, but it would also tie their hands designing future encounters.

Bad, bad idea.

[Quill]

They just need to bring back heroic dungeons that drop gear of similar ilvl to the current tier's LFR, so that you can skip LFR in the gearing path of your alts.

LFR is highly inefficient and unpleasant to run. It's such a frustrating time sink, that it makes gearing an alt feel like it's not even worth it. THAT is how it affects players who make posts like these.

[tandenstoker]

At that point you might as well provide players without a link to youtube so they can just view a video. You should at least provide valor or justice. I don't know why everyone is so determined to punish players who don't particularly enjoy grouping with at least nine other people. Even those faceroll dungeons give valor.

Becouse this is a mmo ?, not a single player game ...

if you dont like making friends to play a game with then why play this game ? go play cod or w/e

[Golden]

Years ago when I was playing Everquest 1, people used to always complain about the death penalty but there was hardly a complaint about gear progression. Now in WoW, no one complains about the death penalty but people can't stop complaining about gear progression.

In EQ1 new content patches came out about every 6 months. In those patches, you had hard mode raid content and some 6 mans. The progression raiders hung out in the new raid content. The casual/family guild raiders got gear from the new 6 mans that made the old raid content about as difficult as WoW's flex raids. And the non-raiders hung out in the 6 mans. As far as I could tell, everyone seemed happy enough. I'm not sure why Blizzard felt the need to change this formula. It seemed to work out psychologically. No one was charged with getting welfare epics, and the community wasn't at each others' throats. /shrug