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  1. #241
    I am super excited about the updates. They look so much more fresh and appealing. No, they aren't the most advanced, but such a huge step. I enjoy cosmetic changes as much as I enjoy some good PvE content, so I am a happy customer.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    "And even more interesting, females 25 years or older make up the largest block of PC game players overall, and they account for 54.6% of all gameplay minutes in December of last year. Girls don't just play -- they're quickly becoming one of it's main demographics."
    Again, you are distorting the figures. I don't care about a particular demographic. I look at the big picture and the overall numbers.

    We can also compare console games to PC games if you want and how much money each generate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    And I like how you keep going back to Farmville, but refuse to provide any proof while I offered a source for my argument.
    It's like proving to you that you need to breathe oxygen in order to live. It was proven a long time ago that men generally like competitive gaming whereas women prefer social media. Generally speaking of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Your sexism is showing.
    You're the one who believes that there's an all male conspiracy to keep women down even though most homeless people are men and most victims of crime are men.

    "Male privilege".

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Night elf females aren't buxom. Far from it--they've got some of the smallest breast sizes in proportion to the model in the game, with maybe female gnomes and female trolls beating them out.
    I see, so again you are distorting reality to fit your worldview. Blood Elf females aren't skinny, they are just small, right?

    Again, you are not looking at the bigger picture.
    Last edited by mmoc614a3ed308; 2014-01-24 at 04:19 PM.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    You clearly have no understanding how Blizzard constructs their teams. There are separate teams working on character models AND a team working on art for the new expansion (world, instances, etc). Or do you think that Blizzard only employs 15 people in a supply closet at the Google Campus or something?

    But ok, you heard it hear first folks. User Caliph has triumphantly declared that models do nothing for gameplay. Let's start a petition for Blizzard to remove all models from his game so that his WoW is comprised of monochrome cubes. No loot, no spell effects, no art...just monochrome cubes that shoot monochrome cubes at monochrome cubes inside of more monochrome cubes. It's no different right? So he'll enjoy it exactly as much.
    right keep reaching and stretching. The model team could be put to use on several other things but whatever. Plus i didn't say they shouldn't update models just that they're putting so much into it and it offers nothing for gameplay.

    keep trying dude.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    right keep reaching and stretching. The model team could be put to use on several other things but whatever. Plus i didn't say they shouldn't update models just that they're putting so much into it and it offers nothing for gameplay.

    keep trying dude.
    Graphics are important to a lot of people it seems. The new models are great so far and will scale with higher resolutions much better than the old ones.

    Considering that Blizzard are using a 10 year old graphics engine the upgraded models are awesome.

  5. #245
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IKT View Post
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. - Abraham Lincoln

    You are right. You shouldn't have said anything.
    MMO-Champ the place where calling out trolls get you into more trouble than trolling.

  6. #246
    You guys don't realize that from an outsider's perspective, it's very difficult to draw certain people to this game because the graphics are archaic. Warhammer Online just shut down after a 5 year run and I couldn't convince a single person to come try WoW because of how terrible the graphics are. Things like this will probably matter more than you realize.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by torment3d View Post
    You guys don't realize that from an outsider's perspective, it's very difficult to draw certain people to this game because the graphics are archaic. Warhammer Online just shut down after a 5 year run and I couldn't convince a single person to come try WoW because of how terrible the graphics are. Things like this will probably matter more than you realize.
    Some do realize this. The difference is, indeed, enormous.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Again, you are distorting the figures. I don't care about a particular demographic. I look at the big picture and the overall numbers.

    We can also compare console games to PC games if you want and how much money each generate.
    I'm looking at active participation in the game. 54% of all gametime came from female players in that study. It doesn't matter how many people are playing, it matter's who's playing more.


    It's like proving to you that you need to breathe oxygen in order to live. It was proven a long time ago that men generally like competitive gaming whereas women prefer social media. Generally speaking of course.
    Then you should have no trouble sourcing it. Otherwise, it's just like any other 'it's common sense!' argument: typically bullshit that someone spewed and can't back up.

    You're the one who believes that there's an all male conspiracy to keep women down even though most homeless people are men and most victims of crime are men.

    "Male privilege".
    You're the one backpedaling into ad hominems rather than addressing the point that you just flat-out said male opinions on new models are worth more than female opinions. Also, most crimes are perpetrated by men.

    As for homelessness, congrats, you have stumbled on the notion of intersectionality. Class privilege and gender privilege are not mutually-inclusive, nor mutually-exclusive. A homeless white man will get shit for being homeless, not being a white man. A homeless black man will get shit for being homeless and black, not being a man.

    I see, so again you are distorting reality to fit your worldview. Blood Elf females aren't skinny, they are just small, right?
    No, blood elf girls are skinny, unless the new model gives them muscle definition.

    Again, you are not looking at the bigger picture.
    The "bigger picture" is that more girls log in more playtime than boys do, but you're insisting WoW should cater all models to the male gaze, which is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I bring up male privilege as a concept.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    No, blood elf girls are skinny, unless the new model gives them muscle definition.
    Hoping the model updates don't change them too much though. Frankly I think it's silly to be holding fictional non-Human races to real-world Human standards, which is sadly something that's been happening throughout WoW's lifespan.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Hoping the model updates don't change them too much though. Frankly I think it's silly to be holding fictional non-Human races to real-world Human standards, which is sadly something that's been happening throughout WoW's lifespan.
    Well, like I noted before, most of the more visible changes to the models seems to come from fewer big polygons and fewer hard edges, coupled with more visible joints and the like, so I wouldn't bank on big changes to the female belves.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by glowzone View Post

    Also, to deny the roleplayers that one bone that gets thrown at the poor lads once every 2 years or so is being a poor sport.
    Welcome to the World of Warcraft.

    (Daboo, daboo)

  12. #252
    I am very much looking forward to World of Warcraft being more worthy of the "ultra" settings my computer is capable of running.

    I was first introduced to World of Warcraft by two Canadian friends when I lived in China. I remember the absolute epic feeling of creating my first character, a Tauren, and that first run to Thunder Bluff. It was friggin' magnificent. I get a similar feeling every time a new expansion is released and I get to explore Northrend, Pandaria, or Draenor. I don't play World of Warcraft to purely number crunch, although I do raid and PvP. A lot of the reason I continue playing, going beyond six years now, is for the immersion. New character models are going to please me when I roleplay, PvP, quest, and raid. This is something many of us already went through, as druids, seeing the new cat and bear models. In fact, I suspect I'll roleplay more with new models.

    This type of thread makes me somewhat sad for the World of Warcraft community and the real world. People have become so unbelievably myopic and self-centered, believing that if something isn't 100% for them, it is worthless and to be discarded; no other person exists, much less their preferences or desires.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    I'm looking at active participation in the game. 54% of all gametime came from female players in that study. It doesn't matter how many people are playing, it matter's who's playing more.
    54% of PC gamers are female. It doesn't matter if it's 100% if they are all playing Farmville.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Then you should have no trouble sourcing it. Otherwise, it's just like any other 'it's common sense!' argument: typically bullshit that someone spewed and can't back up.
    Use Google. Everyone knows this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You're the one backpedaling into ad hominems rather than addressing the point that you just flat-out said male opinions on new models are worth more than female opinions. Also, most crimes are perpetrated by men.
    Now you are putting male victims of crime and male criminals in the same category. That's sexist. We're not all the same. Crimes are committed by individuals against other individuals and the source of crime is generally due to economic reasons, not due to sex or gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    As for homelessness, congrats, you have stumbled on the notion of intersectionality. Class privilege and gender privilege are not mutually-inclusive, nor mutually-exclusive. A homeless white man will get shit for being homeless, not being a white man. A homeless black man will get shit for being homeless and black, not being a man.
    More men are homeless because we live in a terrible economy for men. It really is that simple. "Male privilege".

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    No, blood elf girls are skinny, unless the new model gives them muscle definition.
    Night Elf females seem huge compared to Blood Elf females. NE females are larger than BE females, so comparatively speaking they have large breasts. But if you want to use the proportion argument it still works for me and my male privilege. So by all means, keep NE females relatively large compared to everyone else, including their breasts. They are Amazonian after all. We wouldn't want to break with tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    The "bigger picture" is that more girls log in more playtime than boys do...
    They play more PC games. There are many different types of PC games. Just because most people who play Farmville are women doesn't mean that WoW should be made mostly for women.

    It's a complete non-sequitur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    ...but you're insisting WoW should cater all models to the male gaze, which is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I bring up male privilege as a concept.
    No I am merely stating that WoW should reflect its target audience. If Blizzard want to make a game mostly for women then they are more than welcome to do so. The company will die but it's their game.

    Do you honestly, seriously believe that women participate in mainstream gaming as much as men? Here's a thought: make your own game, or better still, create a huge market for female games so that someone wants to invest in that market.

  14. #254
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gps View Post
    I dont get why people are going crazy over the new models. We put armor over our characters and zoom all the way out. Its not like you'll prob notice any difference.
    Look at what my Paladin, Warrior, DK and Mage are wearing. I'll notice.

    I think the new models are shaping up to look pretty amazing, and as others have said, all the models impact how armour looks; take a look at the front page and compare the smooth curves around the hips and thighs with the rather angular shape there now, it's a huge improvement that you'll see in armour and robes before you zoom in and look at the faces and the impact of the higher resolutions there.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    54% of PC gamers are female. It doesn't matter if it's 100% if they are all playing Farmville.
    Because Joystiq would be talking about played time on Farmville in reference to females as a demographic in WoW. Context clues, man.

    Use Google. Everyone knows this.
    You'll forgive me for expecting you to be capable of doing your own research.

    Now you are putting male victims of crime and male criminals in the same category. That's sexist. We're not all the same. Crimes are committed by individuals against other individuals and the source of crime is generally due to economic reasons, not due to sex or gender.
    You're putting words in my mouth, sweetheart. Most crime is committed by men, on men. But you'll have to Google it because apparently we're not citing our sources here.

    More men are homeless because we live in a terrible economy for men. It really is that simple.
    The economy's shit for everyone. Most men who end up homeless do so because the system is stacked against anyone below the middle class.

    Night Elf females seem huge compared to Blood Elf females. NE females are larger than BE females, so comparatively speaking they have large breasts. But if you want to use the proportion argument it still works for me and my male privilege. So by all means, keep NE females relatively large compared to everyone else, including their breasts. They are Amazonian after all. We wouldn't want to break with tradition.
    Don't be petty. I'm speaking in relation to body proportions. Again, context clues.

    They play more PC games. There are many different types of PC games. Just because most people who play Farmville are women doesn't mean that WoW should be made mostly for women.

    It's a complete non-sequitur.
    Cite sources, and also, why would Joystiq talk about hours plugged into Farmville when discussing females as a demographic in wow, going so far as to say, I quote, "Girls don't just play WoW -- they're quickly becoming one of it's main demographics."

    No I am merely stating that WoW should reflect its target audience. If Blizzard want to make a game mostly for women then they are more than welcome to do so. The company will die but it's their game.
    I love how you claim that a company will die because it isn't targeted at lonely twentysomething males. Must be why Tomb Raider 2013 did so badly, right?

    Do you honestly, seriously believe that women participate in mainstream gaming as much as men? Here's a thought: make your own game, or better still, create a huge market for female games so that someone wants to invest in that market.
    Have you thought that the reason most girls don't admit to playing games is because of the vitriolic treatment they get by boys in gaming? Go look at any comment page on any given GameSpot article, especially those discussing feminism in games. Yet it surprises you that girls don't play Call of Activision more often?

    Also, you're about-facing your own argument. 54% of all PC gamers are female, so obviously there is a large market. And I don't need to be a carpenter to discuss furniture any more than I need to be a game developer to discuss feminism and females in gaming.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Fufu View Post
    This type of thread makes me somewhat sad for the World of Warcraft community and the real world. People have become so unbelievably myopic and self-centered, believing that if something isn't 100% for them, it is worthless and to be discarded; no other person exists, much less their preferences or desires.
    This continues to strike me on these forums as well. It's OK if people don't care for certain things or whatever, but seeing how some folks here seem to have a perverse need to spit in another one's plate - it's beyond me. What is it good for, what does anyone gain from it? Coming up here, showcasing a terrifying level of obtuseness and telling others they're basically being morons because they're not as miserable and ignorant. It's just ridiculous and really pitiful.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2014-01-24 at 05:02 PM.

  17. #257
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHellfire View Post
    This continues to strike me on these forums as well. It's OK if people don't care for certain things or whatever, but seeing how some folks here seem to have a perverse need to spit in another one's plate - it's beyond me.
    This is just a carry over for what the entire world behaves like. We just have several new outlets for our hatred and bias. It sounds silly, but it's not different at the most basic level as wanting to ban gay marriage. Person A doesn't like what Person B likes, so they must eradicate what Person B likes to Preserve their own interests.
    BAD WOLF

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Have you thought that the reason most girls don't admit to playing games is because of the vitriolic treatment they get by boys in gaming? Go look at any comment page on any given GameSpot article, especially those discussing feminism in games. Yet it surprises you that girls don't play Call of Activision more often?
    I think some of the hostility comes from a fear that if females become a majority in gaming (like the article states) that games will shift toward what they like and away from the state of games currently (or past) which tends to have games that males as a whole like. Its human nature to try to protect something you like from change.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Because Joystiq would be talking about played time on Farmville in reference to females as a demographic in WoW. Context clues, man.
    They, like you, are twisting the facts to support your argument.

    When the poll was taken 400 000 females played WoW out of a total of 1.8 million players in North America.

    Just because 54% of PC "gamers" are female doesn't automatically mean they are taking over a traditionally male hobby. It just means they generally like different games or different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You'll forgive me for expecting you to be capable of doing your own research.
    This was researched a long time ago. It's not my fault if you are not up to date with the facts. Do you need me to prove to you that World War 2 happened as well or can you just accept common knowledge or just use Google?

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    You're putting words in my mouth, sweetheart. Most crime is committed by men, on men. But you'll have to Google it because apparently we're not citing our sources here.
    No I have seen the statistics and heard this argument many times before, but you missed the point. Crime is committed by individuals against other individuals. A male victim of crime didn't create the male criminal that committed the crime. The two men are separate.

    Not all men are the same. Only someone who is impervious to logic wouldn't see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    The economy's shit for everyone. Most men who end up homeless do so because the system is stacked against anyone below the middle class.
    So you are finally admitting that it's an economic problem and not because all men are evil. We're finally making progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Don't be petty. I'm speaking in relation to body proportions. Again, context clues.
    Even in terms of body proportions, Night Elf females are still larger and more athletic compared to BE females. But in the actual game world they are significantly larger. I just wonder if Blizzard will reduce their breast size in order to pacify feminists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Cite sources, and also, why would Joystiq talk about hours plugged into Farmville when discussing females as a demographic in wow, going so far as to say, I quote, "Girls don't just play WoW -- they're quickly becoming one of it's main demographics."
    Some people like twisting the facts in order to fit their worldview. It happens in politics all the time.

    Like you for example: you are using the supposed fact that over 50% of PC gamers are female to justify changing WoW into a female game when in reality, 50% of WoW gamers are not female. Now are there things that Blizzard could do to make it more female-friendly? Of course there are, but Blizzard aren't going to attract that PC audience without changing WoW into something it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    I love how you claim that a company will die because it isn't targeted at lonely twentysomething males. Must be why Tomb Raider 2013 did so badly, right?
    Apples and oranges. Legend was the best game IMO (it was the Wrath of the Lich King of Tomb Raider) but hardcore fans preferred Underworld. Both sold well but not well enough apparently. The new Tomb Raider basically turned the franchise into a movie whereas Legend was somewhere inbetween a game and a movie.

    This is a casual versus hardcore debate, not a male versus female one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Have you thought that the reason most girls don't admit to playing games is because of the vitriolic treatment they get by boys in gaming? Go look at any comment page on any given GameSpot article, especially those discussing feminism in games. Yet it surprises you that girls don't play Call of Activision more often?

    Also, you're about-facing your own argument. 54% of all PC gamers are female, so obviously there is a large market. And I don't need to be a carpenter to discuss furniture any more than I need to be a game developer to discuss feminism and females in gaming.
    No doubt there's a large market, but only for certain types of games. If someone made an MMO the size of WoW just for women it would fail spectacularly. If there was a market for such a game then it would have already been made. Games publishers are incredibly greedy and ruthless when it comes to supplying demand.

    All feminists want to do is police a male hobby. Considering what feminists have done to men in the real world and in the media, I can't blame men for wanting a male safe zone. You do realise that most games developers are men, right? They might have been engineers or mechanics but globalization exported most of those jobs to China, and now you want to take away the one last thing that men actually have to themselves?

    Good luck; you're going to need it.
    Last edited by mmoc614a3ed308; 2014-01-24 at 06:20 PM.

  20. #260
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    All feminists want to do is police a male hobby. Considering what feminists have done to men in the real world and in the media, I can't blame men for wanting a male safe zone. You do realise that most games developers are men, right? They might have been engineers or mechanics but globalization exported most of those jobs to China, and now you want to take away the one last thing that men actually have to themselves?
    As a member of the male community, you should sit down and keep your mouth shut. You are a horrible representation of our sex and I would prefer you speak for yourself and not on behalf of our entire population. There's not a single redeeming thing I can say about your posts. They are sexist, assuming, and wrong. Just stop.
    BAD WOLF

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