This is why 10 man loot table is total crap

[Gliff]

You have to be lacking a brain to claim that 25 mans don't gear significantly faster than 10 man. Please don't QQ about the 1-2 items you have trouble getting to drop vs half of the loot table for 10 mans.

Pretty sure that isn't what is being said. What is being said is RNG is RNG. Get over it. It's been this way forever.

[Dubalazi]

8 Normal + 12 Heroic kills on shamans - 0 Kardrises drops - and i rolled coin on every damn kill. Still stucked with Cha-ye HC

16 Normal Garrosh kills - 1 trinket. nuff said

[Dracodraco]

You have to be lacking a brain to claim that 25 mans don't gear significantly faster than 10 man. Please don't QQ about the 1-2 items you have trouble getting to drop vs half of the loot table for 10 mans.

For an individual person, there's a better chance of one item dropping that you need.
For the entire raid, it's pretty much exactly the same. Sure, you might have yet to see a caster trinket from immerseus (as an example) while a 25 man has had 3. The issue is that the 25 man has 10-12 casters that needs it while you have 3-4. In your world, 3x trinket drops means the entire raid has gotten a trinket and 25 mans should just stfu and be happy. From a 25 man perspective, 3 trinkets means that a fourth or third of the raid has a trinket and we still need atleast 2 times as many drops.
Same goes for str items - we've had one thok trinket for 6 str users. For a 10 man, getting one str trinket sounds pretty damn good. For a 25 man? Not so much.

Also, if you've got issues getting "half the loot table" to drop in 10 mans, you build a fucking retarded setup, or you're encountering the exact same issues a 25 man raid will encounter - loot saturation. Let's take an example -
In MSV, our first feng heroic kill dropped 3x tank bracers (3x copies of the same item can drop in 25 man). We had a bear and a warrior tank. 2 of those bracers were completly wasted (let's not kid ourselves and think offspecs between the two sizes really means anything). In 10 man, that couldn't have happened, because it can't drop the same item twice. No matter what setup we'd chosen, the best case scenario would be 1 wasted bracer (2x plate tanks).
As for anything that isn't jewellery or trinkets or such - do you really think we can keep on using those items? We have a total of 3 hunters in a 25 man, which means that mail agility loot such as boots or bracers can drop a total of 3 times before we're "saturated" - after that, any subsequent drops will be wasted. Im sure you can follow this logic. Thing is, because items can drop double, the chances of this happening extremely quickly is quite high.
Meanwhile, 10 mans hit the "saturation point" after one drop of an item (usually), as you shouldn't have multiple of the same class running around if you have a proper setup. This can take longer to get that specific item for the specific person, sure, but then afterwards, the chances of it dropping again (and thus being worthless because of saturation) is far lower than it is in 25 man. It goes both ways, although for gearing up purposes after progress (new trials etc) 25 man clearly has a brutal edge.

Also, you can *easily* build a setup that wastes basicly zero loot, has great utility, and covers every buff and debuff:
http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000 the only thing you don't get to use in this setup is a polearm. It can have minor alterations (it doesn't really matter if you have a ret or fury warr, a warlock or a mage/spriest, a rogue or a feral druid, you get the idea - I just went for highest throughput classes).
This is what 25 mans at a reasonably high level tend to do - when we recruit, we actually do consider "dumb" stuff like loot and how gearing will be affected, which is why you don't usually see 4 of anything but warlocks (who can substitute for any of the 3 casters - lock, mage, spriest). If you don't build a setup around gearing efficiently, that's your loss as a 10 man.

[Icaras]

I've had the same luck trying to get the DPS plate boots and the DPS offset plate chest from Dark Shaman (I kind of suspect my bonus roll is trolling me, for the last 3 weeks, its given me the Warforged belt, which I kinda don't need more than once, lol).

I do agree there needs to be some kind of solution, as it insanely frustrating. When content is current, I don't see the big deal with each player having, maybe for bonus rolls at least, an increased chance for each piece to drop. Item A drops in week 1 via bonus roll, its chance resets, and the other items on the table go up slightly.

This way the drop chance still remains fairly low...at 1st, but I also know that each week the chance of getting "That one damn item whywon'tyoueverdropaarrrgggggggg" actually increases, at least via the bonus roll.

I see no real downsides to a mechanic that encourages repeated raiding by letting you know that eventually, if you really do the encounter often enough, you WILL be able to get all the items you want.

[bals]

For an individual person, there's a better chance of one item dropping that you need.
For the entire raid, it's pretty much exactly the same. Sure, you might have yet to see a caster trinket from immerseus (as an example) while a 25 man has had 3. The issue is that the 25 man has 10-12 casters that needs it while you have 3-4. In your world, 3x trinket drops means the entire raid has gotten a trinket and 25 mans should just stfu and be happy. From a 25 man perspective, 3 trinkets means that a fourth or third of the raid has a trinket and we still need atleast 2 times as many drops.
Same goes for str items - we've had one thok trinket for 6 str users. For a 10 man, getting one str trinket sounds pretty damn good. For a 25 man? Not so much.

Also, if you've got issues getting "half the loot table" to drop in 10 mans, you build a fucking retarded setup, or you're encountering the exact same issues a 25 man raid will encounter - loot saturation. Let's take an example -
In MSV, our first feng heroic kill dropped 3x tank bracers (3x copies of the same item can drop in 25 man). We had a bear and a warrior tank. 2 of those bracers were completly wasted (let's not kid ourselves and think offspecs between the two sizes really means anything). In 10 man, that couldn't have happened, because it can't drop the same item twice. No matter what setup we'd chosen, the best case scenario would be 1 wasted bracer (2x plate tanks).
As for anything that isn't jewellery or trinkets or such - do you really think we can keep on using those items? We have a total of 3 hunters in a 25 man, which means that mail agility loot such as boots or bracers can drop a total of 3 times before we're "saturated" - after that, any subsequent drops will be wasted. Im sure you can follow this logic. Thing is, because items can drop double, the chances of this happening extremely quickly is quite high.
Meanwhile, 10 mans hit the "saturation point" after one drop of an item (usually), as you shouldn't have multiple of the same class running around if you have a proper setup. This can take longer to get that specific item for the specific person, sure, but then afterwards, the chances of it dropping again (and thus being worthless because of saturation) is far lower than it is in 25 man. It goes both ways, although for gearing up purposes after progress (new trials etc) 25 man clearly has a brutal edge.

Also, you can *easily* build a setup that wastes basicly zero loot, has great utility, and covers every buff and debuff:
http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000 the only thing you don't get to use in this setup is a polearm. It can have minor alterations (it doesn't really matter if you have a ret or fury warr, a warlock or a mage/spriest, a rogue or a feral druid, you get the idea - I just went for highest throughput classes).
This is what 25 mans at a reasonably high level tend to do - when we recruit, we actually do consider "dumb" stuff like loot and how gearing will be affected, which is why you don't usually see 4 of anything but warlocks (who can substitute for any of the 3 casters - lock, mage, spriest). If you don't build a setup around gearing efficiently, that's your loss as a 10 man.

shhhhhhhhhhh
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
it is a well documented fact, by mathematics, that since firelands 25 man groups gear up significantly faster than 10 mans.
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. stop talking.

[Sesshou]

It's definitely a 10man issue. 1 unlucky dps while gearing 10man = 3-4 unlucky dps in 25man

Also, since you get 6 drops per boss kill, it's much, much more common for you to get a specific piece in 1 kill than it is for 10man players to get in 3 kills. (I don't remember which boss, but some bugger always drop an agi ring for us. 3 agi rings in a row = 3 agi rings in one kill for you. Is that possible? Nnnnnnnnnnnnnope)

It's a LOT harder to gear in 10man and RNG fucks you over so much more often. Trust me.

No, it isn't. Its just an rng issue because no loot is guaranteed. 25m has 2.5x as many people... how is 1 of yours worth 3-4 of ours? Thats just stupid.

Sure its just as likely we get a specific piece in 1 kill as you do in 3... and we have 2.5x more people who need it too. Btw it is absolutely possible to get the same piece of loot to drop 3x on one kill on 25m. My 25m hasn't seen Iron Jug's mace drop yet and I'm sure theres probably something else too. RNG is just that, RNG.

[bals]

it is a mathematical fact that 25 man raid groups gear up faster than 10 mans.
anyone that says otherwise is just trolling or ignorant of how math works.

[Silversorrow]

Even 25 man rng can suck. It took my 25 man guild which was killing up to thok by 2 months into this tier (so 3 bosses that drop bows) a little over 2 months to even see a SINGLE bow drop.....and we run with 5 hunters...... We were killing protectors every week since week 1 and they dropped that first bow over 2 months into the tier. Rng is rng it can suck on 10 man and 25.

[Deleted]

someone used math back in firelands to show that 25man gearing was significantly faster than 10 man gearing.
And that was even when gear drops were closer together iirc.

This^^ Trinket from Immersius, took our dps ages to all get it. Our Lock used a Normal one for Heroic Garrosh lol. The healing trinket from Sha - never dropped, not even once. All our healers have been coining it every week, none of them have gotten it yet (talking about our core 10 man group here and not the gazillion of new ppl we got). Agi trinket from Sha, dropped twice I think, been coining it for my OS for weeks with no luck. Agi trinket from Shamans, dropped twice. Healing trinket from Siegecrafter hasn't dropped, heck our Disc Priest still have the Horridon trinket.

So really, tell me about bad RNG for 10 man...... Our only comfort lies in the fact, that we'll be going 25 man within a few resets and then loot shall rain down on us.

Edit: For Draco and others claiming that it's equally fast or equally RNG dependent with loot in 25 man - GTFO. As Bals said, it's a fact that 25 man gear up faster. That's the way Blizz wants it to be, to push more players into 25 man.

But it's not like it matters now tbh. If it wasn't for the fact that there will only be 1 raid size next expansion, I'd be calling for changes to this horrible loot system as well. But unless you do Normals (which nobody really cares about and where it doesn't really matter), we're on an even playing field. So think of it as the last loot joke and move on. If you're killing bosses or if you already cleared the place, that shit loot doesn't even matter.

[gutnbrg]

Life is so hard, 1st world probs...

[arcaneshot]

it is a mathematical fact that 25 man raid groups gear up faster than 10 mans.

You've said this three times in this topic and you haven't produced the proof yet.

[Deleted]

You've said this three times in this topic and you haven't produced the proof yet.

10 man drops 2 loot, 25 6 loots, 2*2.5=5, not 6, ergo 25 drops 1 more loot.
Also 10 man 2 loots means 1 loot every 5 players, 25's 6 means 1 loot every 4,1~ players.

[Deleted]

Edit: For Draco and others claiming that it's equally fast or equally RNG dependent with loot in 25 man - GTFO. As Bals said, it's a fact that 25 man gear up faster. That's the way Blizz wants it to be, to push more players into 25 man.

You'd think 25 man gears up to full BIS much faster but you'd be wrong.
For example in Method, we still need the Immersus trinkets(heroic version) for mains. I have 3 alts that need that trinket. If that trinket would drop every week from now until the next expansion it would still never get disenchanted. Most of the trinkets currently on people are from coins(and due to Warforged version many of them will still be on Immersus or coin each week also), and I don't think you can blame 25 mans for coining.

In theory since 6 items drop in 25 man you're more likely to see a rare item drop, but in practice there's a lot of people that will need that item even if it drops and there will be a lot of people needing that item after 1 guy gets it.

Another funny thing. We had 8 25 man raids for Immersus in the first week of normal to get that trinket. It dropped ONCE.

[Dracodraco]

shhhhhhhhhhh
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
it is a well documented fact, by mathematics, that since firelands 25 man groups gear up significantly faster than 10 mans.
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. stop talking.

Okay. Link me the proof, please. I'm waiting. Instead of being a condescending prick, you should back up your insults with the math.
I vivdly remember doing the math in Dragon Soul, and untill week 10, 10 mans actually geared up *quicker* than 25 mans - mainly due to 2x tier tokens in 25 vs 1 in 10 man (which is now 1 vs 3) - but in terms of overall raid power, assuming everything was used on both sides, you geared up quicker in 10 mans untill everyone had a full set of tier items, and then 25 mans took over. With that in mind, I'd love to see the numbers from that guy "back in firelands", because as far as I recall, the same loot distribution was used.
Fact is that 25 mans usually have bigger rosters than 10 mans do (35-38 vs 11-13), which means the 2 vs 6 loot pieces dropping is entirely justified. You simply need far more people to keep stable progress in a 25 man, as you have 2-3 times as high a chance of people being absent or otherwise unable to play. In an ideal world you'd have a 10/25 man roster, but in reality, it's much easier to keep a "smaller" team in a 10 man than it is in 25. People don't really ever seem to consider the overall guild size - only the theoretical raid size.

Edit: For Draco and others claiming that it's equally fast or equally RNG dependent with loot in 25 man - GTFO. As Bals said, it's a fact that 25 man gear up faster. That's the way Blizz wants it to be, to push more players into 25 man.

Facts aren't facts untill you prove why they are facts. Link proof, pls. In terms of gear dropping and usage, it should be pretty much equal across the raid. Of course, TF/WF has been giving 25 man an edge in pure item level power since last tier, and it's true that you can gear one specific person much faster if you focus loot that's supposed to be for 6 players into 1 player, the speed in terms of items is pretty damn near equal.
I'd be willing to bet that the only reason 25 mans are "ahead" of similiar 10 mans, are WF/TF gear differences.

[Socialhealer]

Also, since you get 6 drops per boss kill, it's much, much more common for you to get a specific piece in 1 kill than it is for 10man players to get in 3 kills. (I don't remember which boss, but some bugger always drop an agi ring for us. 3 agi rings in a row = 3 agi rings in one kill for you. Is that possible? Nnnnnnnnnnnnnope)

3 loots the same has been or still is possible because i've seen it happen a few times over the years.

- - - Updated - - -

someone used math back in firelands to show that 25man gearing was significantly faster than 10 man gearing.
And that was even when gear drops were closer together iirc.

in firelands? lol the gearing is firelands was hilarious thats the most biased example ever since 25man got 9 loots from a tier boss back then, but doesn't matter since 10man needed around 12-13 minutes to kill rag, and 25man needed 15-16, less ilvl less dps req.

and even then, the firestone was the same drop chance on 10 as 25, even though 25 needed way more firestones for people to make their heroic totem/librams etc, the 10man in our guild was done months before the 25.

[Deleted]

I got 2 Heroic Warforged items this week, both from bonus rolls, so 2 items from 3 rolls and both were warforged, RNG is a killer.. I do agree that 25 man loot is alot better than 10 man, I raided a little bit of 10 man and didn't see many Warforged pieces, however in 25 man it seems atleast one, sometimes up to three items are warforged from each boss.

[JV Chequer]

I'm 10man raider and I have 5 H WF items included both trinkets and weapon.

[Orlong]

And if there was only 1 loot item per class per boss, then people would bitch that every week the same 2 things drop and you never get your item. Its all luck

[Dreyen]

Honestly, When I seee humonguous loot tables, I always tell myself tht 10man doesn't drop enough loot... it's so much quicker to gear yourself in 25m. Getting loot in 10m is almost equal to getting warforged loot in 25man >.<

[Deleted]

Well first of all you might have an issue with your trinket, but you still lucky, as someone already said, you got the others 14 (BiS?) pieces. I'd like to say, that's easier gearing up in 25manH then the 10 version. Just think about it: how many useless drop might drop a boss? from 0 to 100%. Okay, so that's not countable.
Let's then say you are raiding with a standard group, and as standard, you take most of classes/spec. Better do this in an easier manner so lets avoid math.
The chances in 25 man to drop something useless is far more rare, then 10, since you can't take all the kind of player.
I dunno if you got the point!