My WoD Death Knight Wishlist

[Schizoide]

I was concerned about 2H frost burst in MoP beta and suspected it would quickly be nerfed. One of the very few occasions where I was wrong in that beta.

As for stuns, lots of specs got stuns (and some AE stuns, even) in MoP due to challenge modes. If you take them away lots of specs will be excluded from challenge modes entirely.

[valliant13]

I was concerned about 2H frost burst in MoP beta and suspected it would quickly be nerfed. One of the very few occasions where I was wrong in that beta.

As for stuns, lots of specs got stuns (and some AE stuns, even) in MoP due to challenge modes. If you take them away lots of specs will be excluded from challenge modes entirely.

Hmm good point schiz, I think CM's need to be revamped anyways. I dont mind flasks/food being "required" however I strongly dislike the fact that invisibility pots are practically required for them for a new group working its way through the first time. It's a bad mechanic. all that would need to change is increasing the time slightly. However I did not think of what the effect of getting rid of all the stuns could do for CM's and maybe it's a mechanic they could put as an extra action button for some classes for CMs only?

[Schizoide]

I don't enjoy challenge modes myself, but I guess some people do.

Extra action buttons or stun "grenade" consumables could work, but that homogenizes the classes and the devs generally try to avoid that sort of thing. One fix would be to change challenge modes to expect that huge pulls will be tanked rather than chain-stunned, and then remove AE stuns from everybody. But then they would be much less, well, challenging.

The devs told us that one of their goals in WoD is to remove a ton of control and CC, for PvP purposes. All those stuns are great candidates.

[valliant13]

I don't enjoy challenge modes myself, but I guess some people do.

Extra action buttons or stun "grenade" consumables could work, but that homogenizes the classes and the devs generally try to avoid that sort of thing. One fix would be to change challenge modes to expect that huge pulls will be tanked rather than chain-stunned, and then remove AE stuns from everybody. But then they would be much less, well, challenging.

The devs told us that one of their goals in WoD is to remove a ton of control and CC, for PvP purposes. All those stuns are great candidates.

Yea, the benefit of the extra action button or stun consumable is every class would then be viable for CM's. I did scholomance and barely missed gold but can't find a group for the life of me to aim for gold without paying $150 or 150k gold...which is something I'm not ok with. I would much rather earn it. I think they are fun but the only reason I care about them is because the cosmetic set is absolutely amazing looking.

[Eats Compost]

If you are getting rune starved too often then it is not the mechanics or RNG that are the problem its the player. While I understand RNG CAN go against you even when I used RE in T14 and RC in T15 if I didn't have any resources it's because I was playing poorly more often than not. I understand that the rune regen mechanic would not be spammed like steady shot is however again I say why not just give us the old rune system back then? However rune starvation in this tier can only happen on a couple fights, there is so much to soak this tier it's crazy. If you are getting rune starved on either spec you either aren't soaking enough or you don't have enough haste, and usually it's you're not soaking enough. There should be no reason for rune starving this tier.

It doesn't happen often, and I'm not saying it does. All I'm saying is that there's no harm in having some recourse available for when it does happen, outside of ERW. It can also get a bit tricky in challenge modes because of how they scale back your haste.

We must be looking at much different people. I check DK's in top guilds and mid range guilds(7-10HC) all of them have BT. Even macro'd BT is a bigger gain than RE is. And it's essentially playing the spec no differently when it's macro'd you just have more control of your runes. Again this is me vs you and there is no 100% anecdotal evidence that I or you are correct since this is really a this is what I see vs this is what you see type debate.

We'll just have to leave it at anecdotes, then.

Frost already is fine at target swapping, unholy needed the plague strike change to help out with target swapping. I still see no reason to get rid of both diseases simply because the spec would become more spammy than it already is, especially with 2H frost. 2H is already a spam whatever lights up spec, I don't need it becoming even more shallow due to getting rid of a button to push. DW would have nothing else to push but FS and HB with effective cooldowns as well. As a whole unless they do a complete overhaul it would shallow out both current subspecs too much.

I'd like to see a mechanic that interacts with Frost Fever in a meaningful way other than slapping a multiplier on Obliterate. The whole concept of the multiplier is about as shallow and braindead as it gets, and I propose Blood Plague's removal from Frost as an extension of another mechanic to place it - preferably a button that does something other than apply a disease for the sole reason of given Oblit a multiplier. At its core, the fact that Blood Plague interacts with abilities the same way for both specs is a part of the sameyness problem in the first place.

Everyone does not need a stun. The only people who should be able to stun is a rogue, warrior(on charge only), and paladin. Mages, Warlocks, and anyone else with a stun should have it stripped. The game has too much CC in the pvp meta taking it away and actually letting a battle be decided by who fights better is the way pvp should be. Not who can keep one of the opposition from controlling their character the longest is the winner. The pvp game would benefit greatly for having CC be something that is timed = win, not what it is today where you can get three classes that have CC's that share zero DR so someone can literally be CC'd for a minute. I don't consider CC chains skill but that's just me and an argument/debate for another day/thread.

I agree that there's too much CC, don't get me wrong. All I'm saying is that a class without good CC like stuns will get creamed by the ones that do, which is why DKs need them - not because it suits the class or anything, but because it's a borderline PvP necessity for melee. Theoretically, there's nothing wrong with removing their stun, but you HAVE to give them something just as good in return, and there are very, very few things as good as stuns that aren't absurd burst damage. Personally, I liked it when Plague Strike and Blood Plague reversed/removed HoTs and I'd like to see that form of control return, but I can't see Blizzard letting it happen.

I think he knows what rune starving is, however play a ret pally. They have enormous downtime. Plus downtime is a good thing imo. RE is bad because of RNG which is why I said earlier that anyone playing(dw at least) with RE instead of BT does not care enough about their dps. Macro'd BT is miles ahead(to me) than RE ever could be simply because of RNG. I still can control when I get runes back.

The issue with DK downtime is that they're designed to absolutely not have downtime, and any downtime that we do have is lost DPS. It's also worth noting that ret pallies aren't simming very well at all right now. BT does avoid RNG, but then that raises the entirely separate issue of how much it outclasses the others, which is a whole other can of worms that also dictates that something should be done about that talent tier. At the very least, emergency rune backups would decrease the impact of the risks that RNG bring.

[Schizoide]

The issue with DK downtime is that they're designed to absolutely not have downtime, and any downtime that we do have is lost DPS.

That is not accurate. Cataclysm and MoP design goals were that every non-caster spec would have free GCDs. Of course it didn't actually work out that way, but that was the goal.

Those goals have changed for WoD; Celestalon now says it's OK for some rare specs to be GCD-locked. So avoiding GCD-locking is no longer a defined goal. Whether you agree or not (and it seems like you do; I don't) that's how it will be.

I would be more bummed out about that change in design goal if they hadn't repeatedly failed to execute on it in the past. As is, it's a zero-sum. We'll be GCD-locked either way.

[Shiira]

Melee being gcd locked outside of bis gear in the final tier of the expansion is bad design because it limits their ability to scale with haste.

Sound familiar?

[Taninsam]

I don't know if anybody posted this but

PLEASE


PLEASE


MAKE

ARMY

AN INSTANT

If you don't, at least make it a super powerful CD. What does it do currently, around 4M damage in ~575 ilvl?

[Veszmyr]

Spell changes.
-Anti magic shell: No longer provides runic power.

This is an interesting, fun, and beneficial (especially with the Regenerative Magic Glyph) mechanic that not only assists players when using Runic Corruption or Runic Empowerment when they get a run of very bad luck, and hence helps alleviate that issue, but also allows for cool ways to use it as an 'RP' storage when trying to burst down adds as quickly as possible (The biggest example of this is Immerseus or Galakras). The very notion to remove it informs me that the rest of the post won't even be worth reading.

[Schizoide]

Melee being gcd locked outside of bis gear in the final tier of the expansion is bad design because it limits their ability to scale with haste.

The devs used that alongside lots of other reasons too when explaining why they didn't want anyone to be GCD-locked in the Cataclysm and MoP betas. But Celestalon clearly stated those goals have changed. I disagree, but my opinion and $6 will get you a Frappucino at Starbucks.

[valliant13]

I don't know if anybody posted this but

PLEASE


PLEASE


MAKE

ARMY

AN INSTANT

If you don't, at least make it a super powerful CD. What does it do currently, around 4M damage in ~575 ilvl?

That would be fantastic. Making it similar to stampede on the same cooldown would be fantastic. I know I complained about similarities between classes however this is a VERY broken spell/skill whatever you want to call it.

- - - Updated - - -

Melee being gcd locked outside of bis gear in the final tier of the expansion is bad design because it limits their ability to scale with haste.

Sound familiar?

Sadly people won't realize it shiira

[Huckfealing]

I think it goes without saying that Blizzard really has no idea what to do with Dk's. Flat % buffs are the calling of a design team who are out of ideas. They don't want to revamp the class because it's still new (relatively) and they fear the increase of the already absurd argument "Dk's are WAY to powerful!?!?!#%" The Rune system is shit hands down. The RP system is the exact same from day one. Every other class has been given some sort of class change (Even if it was a terrible decision) and what have we got? Slower Rune Regen. (They only did this because they wanted to break away from the "rotation" model." Which is find and dandy, however, they just created the class fully around the rotation idea, and then gut it.) I truly believe they do not know what to do with the class. (Same with warriors, and rogues in terms of class design.)

[Schizoide]

They use flat buffs inside an expansion because their metrics told them that changing gameplay causes players to quit. Even positive changes have that effect. People just get confused, throw up their hands, say something like "I don't understand what to do?!" and walk away. Sounds crazy to me too but that is their stance.

6.0 beta is our chance to get gameplay changes. That window closes when beta does. No annual pass so it's mostly luck who gets in. At the very least I hope the leaders who emerged in MoP (Mag and Mendenbarr, primarily) get in.

[valliant13]

They use flat buffs inside an expansion because their metrics told them that changing gameplay causes players to quit. Even positive changes have that effect. People just get confused, throw up their hands, say something like "I don't understand what to do?!" and walk away. Sounds crazy to me too but that is their stance.

6.0 beta is our chance to get gameplay changes. That window closes when beta does. No annual pass so it's mostly luck who gets in. At the very least I hope the leaders who emerged in MoP (Mag and Mendenbarr, primarily) get in.

I hope we get a good assortment of high quality DKs regardless of current progression to get in. If I get in I may very well actually play the beta simply because I need to see where this class is headed before I make a commitment to it again for an expansion. If it looks as gloomy as MoP did going live, I will probably play the first tier as my dk while keeping my warlock relevent and then switch over to my warlock for the 2nd-final tier. Which is quite honestly pretty bad. However Magdelena and Mendenbarr are absolute must haves in the Beta, I would say Vereesa and Shiira as well. After that I don't care.

[Shiira]

6.0 beta is our chance to get gameplay changes. That window closes when beta does.

Pretty much this, warlords beta is going to be a very important period of time for the future of our class.

I hope blizzard do a better job of responding to feedback than they did in the mists beta.

[Schizoide]

Hey, we got a lot done in MoP beta. Not everything, and it was a lot of work, but some really important low-level changes. I'm particularly proud of the 1s GCD and Soul Reaper death rune changes.

[Shiira]

Both of those were wonderful changes, but I wanted so much more done.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic.

[Schizoide]

Other classes didn't have a dedicated core of people willing to push change in the forums and they lost out. Shamans in particular come to mind. DKs did better than many. 1s GCD was a low level change. Those are tough sells. I hope all of us get back in beta, even those with whom I often disagreed like Lidelse.

[Shiira]

Dissenting opinions are always good in that kind of situation.

They limit the echo chamber effect and promote actual discussion and evaluation of ideas.

[Schizoide]

Spot on.

Group hug?