Garrosh 25 Heroic Questions

[Crushima]

** Questions are aimed at 25heroic only, not 10man heroic**

Wondering if anyone who has concrete information can help with the following:

1. How many players need to be clustered to spawn an Iron Star in P4? I've seen 6 and 7 thrown around alot, but would like something concrete if possible.

2. Is the radius for clumped player detection for spawning iron stars 8 yards, as confirmed here? http://www.wowhead.com/spell=147126

3. Which classes can safely kite an ironstar indefinately, incase we spawn a ironstar or two by accident, during the second bombardment? (we had a 6% wipe tonight, which ended with us spawning 2 ironstars during the second bombardment, one of which exploded and wiping us, as the explosion damage came whilst malice was up...)

4. For Malice #4, we are using rogues (CoS) and monks (Zen med) to soak the malice, whilst others spread out before bombardment. Can Paladins remove the debuff with bubble, or just immune the damage? If they immune, does the boss get extra energy from malice ticks?

Any information would be greatly appreciated, many thanks

[Glyphtics]

Can't remember the number of people / range for Ironstar, but you really only need to get one. At this point in the tier your raid DPS should be good enough to not need a second one. The only time where Malice and Bombardment can be a problem is the 4th malice, but just get classes with immunities to soak it, and have the rest of your raid spread early. Mage can Greater Invis Malice and might be able to Ice Block the debuff, I don't play one, so I don't really know.

Best classes to kite Iron Stars are Druids and Monks. Other classes can make do, with the assistance of Priest feathers. Your priests should run feathers as a precaution just in case.

[Crushima]

Can't remember the number of people / range for Ironstar, but you really only need to get one. At this point in the tier your raid DPS should be good enough to not need a second one. The only time where Malice and Bombardment can be a problem is the 4th malice, but just get classes with immunities to soak it, and have the rest of your raid spread early. Mage can Greater Invis Malice and might be able to Ice Block the debuff, I don't play one, so I don't really know.

Best classes to kite Iron Stars are Druids and Monks. Other classes can make do, with the assistance of Priest feathers. Your priests should run feathers as a precaution just in case.

Thanks for the reply.

We are only purposely spawning one iron star, as our damage is high enough to not need a second. The problem we're experiencing is spawning another iron star, or even 2, during the second bombardment, due to people not spreading early enough. This is mainly why i wanted to know the number of people who need to cluster together to spawn one.

Also wanted to know about who is best to kite it if we happen to mess up and get 2, simply as a way to maybe 'save' the attempt, since p4 attempts are so valuable when it takes so long each try to get there.

[Megabloks]

It's 7 to spawn an iron star since you need 5 soakers + the person with malice, so it would be impossible to soak it without spawning a star if it was 6.

Maybe not I really don't pay attention ;(

[Deleted]

It's 7 to spawn an iron star since you need 5 soakers + the person with malice, so it would be impossible to soak it without spawning a star if it was 6.

Maybe not I really don't pay attention ;(

That logic doesn't work. In 10man you need 2 soakers for malice + malice target and 3 is enough to spawn an iron star.

Also, 4th malice cannot be soaked with immunities(Divine Shield, Ice Block etc) because then energy will go to boss instead. However, Greater Invi, Dispersion and Deterrence (I think?) all work.

I don't know if it's viable in 25 but in 10man we had malice target and 2 othere soak the malice without spawning the star. It was ahndled so that malice target stood still, other soaker was on other side on top of the line indicating malice border and 2nd soaker exactly on the other side. The range is enough not to spawn iron star but still to soak malice. I hope it helps.

[CausalXXLinkXx]

On 25 man it's 7 people to spawn an iron star, 1 with malice, 5 to soak it.

Also, you can 100% soak with Immunities, we use 3-4 paladins and a rogue / moonkin symbiosis / etc

[Megabloks]

That logic doesn't work. In 10man you need 2 soakers for malice + malice target and 3 is enough to spawn an iron star.

Also, 4th malice cannot be soaked with immunities(Divine Shield, Ice Block etc) because then energy will go to boss instead. However, Greater Invi, Dispersion and Deterrence (I think?) all work.

I don't know if it's viable in 25 but in 10man we had malice target and 2 othere soak the malice without spawning the star. It was ahndled so that malice target stood still, other soaker was on other side on top of the line indicating malice border and 2nd soaker exactly on the other side. The range is enough not to spawn iron star but still to soak malice. I hope it helps.

haha 10 man logic is invalid in 25 mans

[Dracodraco]

That logic doesn't work. In 10man you need 2 soakers for malice + malice target and 3 is enough to spawn an iron star.

Also, 4th malice cannot be soaked with immunities(Divine Shield, Ice Block etc) because then energy will go to boss instead. However, Greater Invi, Dispersion and Deterrence (I think?) all work.

I don't know if it's viable in 25 but in 10man we had malice target and 2 othere soak the malice without spawning the star. It was ahndled so that malice target stood still, other soaker was on other side on top of the line indicating malice border and 2nd soaker exactly on the other side. The range is enough not to spawn iron star but still to soak malice. I hope it helps.

We use ret pallies to soak the fourth malice every week. I'm 99% sure they just sit in their bubbles, giving the boss no additional energy. The ability works like Static shock did - it makes a check (is there 5 people inside this area?) - if yes, it then fires off bolts on each of those people - immunities then take effects and negate the damage. There's no check to see if the bolts actually did damage to any targets - only to see if the targets were hit (and if it does not hit all 5 targets it instead fires at the boss, which pulses the entire raid). Deterrence does indeed work, and is the most reliable of the abilities (chain it for 10 second uptime). Next comes bubbles and rogue cloaks (due to DP/Feint backup mitigation).

[BuddyLeeX]

Exactly as AMCausalXXLinkXx stated for 25man. Spriests are also very good for soaking with Dispersion. Also, you need to assign 1 even possibly 2 backups in case one of the soakers gets malice #4, and a 2nd backup in case one of the soakers gets malice #4 + one of the soakers is dead.

If you get a star during malice #4, have your kiter take it away from your raid and callout the explosion in 3 seconds prior to malice #5 so healers/dps can stop casting. Its more important that it happens prior to the malice, as there is no damage at this point except tank damage.

[Deleted]

So in 25 man you can just sit on 4th malice all stacked with immunities? It trivialises the hardest part on all P4? Sounds incredible but not arguing with you guys.

I am paladin myself and I can say for sure I bubbled once on malice (the one I described, I handle malice soaking on that 4th malice) and that last tick I bubbled went to boss. Checked on video afterwards. And no, I don't have that video anymore cause who saves wipes.

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We use ret pallies to soak the fourth malice every week. I'm 99% sure they just sit in their bubbles, giving the boss no additional energy. The ability works like Static shock did - it makes a check (is there 5 people inside this area?) - if yes, it then fires off bolts on each of those people - immunities then take effects and negate the damage. There's no check to see if the bolts actually did damage to any targets - only to see if the targets were hit (and if it does not hit all 5 targets it instead fires at the boss, which pulses the entire raid). Deterrence does indeed work, and is the most reliable of the abilities (chain it for 10 second uptime). Next comes bubbles and rogue cloaks (due to DP/Feint backup mitigation).

When I had bubble on it didn't shoot it on me but on the boss. I am 100% certain. When did you do this? They fixed mages ice block at some point, I think bubble was also fixed? I mean I tested that 2 weeks ago before our first kill.

[asdfsaf]

So in 25 man you can just sit on 4th malice all stacked with immunities? It trivialises the hardest part on all P4? Sounds incredible but not arguing with you guys.

I am paladin myself and I can say for sure I bubbled once on malice (the one I described, I handle malice soaking on that 4th malice) and that last tick I bubbled went to boss. Checked on video afterwards. And no, I don't have that video anymore cause who saves wipes.

too bad you can do the same thing in 10

[Deleted]

Exactly as AMCausalXXLinkXx stated for 25man. Spriests are also very good for soaking with Dispersion. Also, you need to assign 1 even possibly 2 backups in case one of the soakers gets malice #4, and a 2nd backup in case one of the soakers gets malice #4 + one of the soakers is dead.

If you get a star during malice #4, have your kiter take it away from your raid and callout the explosion in 3 seconds prior to malice #5 so healers/dps can stop casting. Its more important that it happens prior to the malice, as there is no damage at this point except tank damage.

There are 2 things I don't understand.

1) How can you spawn an iron star if you can just stack 6 ppl inside malice?
2) How can anyone die, when malice lasts for 5 sec after bombardment starts and there is no immunity that lasts for less than 5 sec?

I'm just wondering, because that 4th malice was the thing we wiped almost exclusively on 10man and then we realised it was possible to get 1+2 ppl in malice to soak it without spawning and iron star if we were careful enough with really exact spots. Also lots of cds were necessary because of bombardment and immunities (apart from deterrence, we didn't have spriest) didn't work when we tried (iceblock or bubble).

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too bad you can do the same thing in 10

Immunity or stacking? If you read I said it is possible to get 2 soakers inside malice but that was not the point.

And no, you can't just stack on 10man. It is impossible or you will spawn an iron star. That is the whole reason I was confused that 7 ppl spawns iron star in 25 and yet 6 is enough to soak the malice because it makes it hell of a lot easier.

[BuddyLeeX]

So in 25 man you can just sit on 4th malice all stacked with immunities? It trivialises the hardest part on all P4? Sounds incredible but not arguing with you guys.

I am paladin myself and I can say for sure I bubbled once on malice (the one I described, I handle malice soaking on that 4th malice) and that last tick I bubbled went to boss. Checked on video afterwards. And no, I don't have that video anymore cause who saves wipes.

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When I had bubble on it didn't shoot it on me but on the boss. I am 100% certain. When did you do this? They fixed mages ice block at some point, I think bubble was also fixed? I mean I tested that 2 weeks ago before our first kill.

I don't know how every guild does it but most have the malice person slowly kite a certain specificed direction as they themselves won't necessarily be immune or mitigate a whole lot of damage. It doesn't necessarily trivialize phase 4 but we can all agree it's one of the hardest parts if not the hardest part of this fight.

If the last tick hit the boss/raid then someone missed the last tick. My guild doesn't use paladins to soak but possible that's true that you can no longer immune the malicious blast?

[Deleted]

I don't know how every guild does it but most have the malice person slowly kite a certain specificed direction as they themselves won't necessarily be immune or mitigate a whole lot of damage. It doesn't necessarily trivialize phase 4 but we can all agree it's one of the hardest parts if not the hardest part of this fight.

If the last tick hit the boss/raid then someone missed the last tick. My guild doesn't use paladins to soak but possible that's true that you can no longer immune the malicious blast?

We stay still on 4th malice and handle the damage with cds. So no, it isn't possible that I was out of the circle. Moving is impossible because we have to be so strictly on our own positions or we spawn an iron star.

EDIT: I know for sure that deterrence works and dispersion works(we had spriest on 2nd kill and we tested). However, ice block and bubble doesn't seem to work. We don't have rogues so cannot comment on that.

Anyway, that was not my point on this topic. It was the number of soakers. I think everyone here is intelligent enough to see the problem on those numbers.

[BuddyLeeX]

There are 2 things I don't understand.

1) How can you spawn an iron star if you can just stack 6 ppl inside malice?
2) How can anyone die, when malice lasts for 5 sec after bombardment starts and there is no immunity that lasts for less than 5 sec?

I'm just wondering, because that 4th malice was the thing we wiped almost exclusively on 10man and then we realised it was possible to get 1+2 ppl in malice to soak it without spawning and iron star if we were careful enough with really exact spots. Also lots of cds were necessary because of bombardment and immunities (apart from deterrence, we didn't have spriest) didn't work when we tried (iceblock or bubble).

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Immunity or stacking? If you read I said it is possible to get 2 soakers inside malice but that was not the point.

And no, you can't just stack on 10man. It is impossible or you will spawn an iron star. That is the whole reason I was confused that 7 ppl spawns iron star in 25 and yet 6 is enough to soak the malice because it makes it hell of a lot easier.

On 25man its easily doable spawning only 1 star (at least trying to spawn JUST one star) during the end of malice #2. We have melee stack up, which is more than 6 people during the last 2 ticks of malice #2 and we drop some raid cooldowns and personals. Once the clump check goes out and we get confirmation that the star is going to spawn we disperse. On malice #4 and malice #5 we try not to spawn a star with solid positioning.

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking in your 2nd question. We have our backup trail the malice group during bombardment and if any of the soakers die they try to jump in before the next tick goes off. Usually we only have people die on the very last tick which is fine.

[Snuzzfizzle]

1. 7
2. 8 sounds about right
3. Our rogues kite the iron stars.
4. We use two tanks and 3 hunters for the fourth malice.

[BuddyLeeX]

We stay still on 4th malice and handle the damage with cds. So no, it isn't possible that I was out of the circle. Moving is impossible because we have to be so strictly on our own positions or we spawn an iron star.

EDIT: I know for sure that deterrence works and dispersion works(we had spriest on 2nd kill and we tested). However, ice block and bubble doesn't seem to work. We don't have rogues so cannot comment on that.

Anyway, that was not my point on this topic. It was the number of soakers. I think everyone here is intelligent enough to see the problem on those numbers.

Wouldn't you have a lot more room on 10 man? You can't stay still and let the malice target die in fire. I don't know how hard it hits on 10 man but on 25 man on my monk kiter it hits me for 200k. I think maybe the easiest way to do this on 10 man (if 3 people is the clump check) would be to have one soaker on one end and the other soaker on the other so they aren't within 8 yards of eachother?

[Deleted]

Wouldn't you have a lot more room on 10 man? You can't stay still and let the malice target die in fire. I don't know how hard it hits on 10 man but on 25 man on my monk kiter it hits me for 200k. I think maybe the easiest way to do this on 10 man (if 3 people is the clump check) would be to have one soaker on one end and the other soaker on the other so they aren't within 8 yards of eachother?

That's how we did it but moving while doing it is quite impossible(moving when you don't have to worry about range check, in 25, should be easier or am I wrong. that's what i meant here from the beginning). That is the reason we stack every possible raid cd (devo, rallying cry, dk AMZ, PS, sacrifice) to malice holder and the second soaker who also uses personal cds. Other soaker is tank who doesn't need anything.

It hits for about 200k yes, which is quite manageable because malice ticks only 3 times after bombardment starts.

And I don't quite get about your comment about more room? Only thing where it matters is inside malice where we have to be very careful in 10man whereas in 25 there is no need for that. Outside malice we have personal positions for everyone so we don't spawn an iron star but it is easy to organize.

[Dracodraco]

When I had bubble on it didn't shoot it on me but on the boss. I am 100% certain. When did you do this? They fixed mages ice block at some point, I think bubble was also fixed? I mean I tested that 2 weeks ago before our first kill.

This reset.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...3903&spell=642
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...s&spell=147235
Can see that consata takes 2 ticks in the second link, then bubbles for the duration of the first link (don't know how to make them overlap on WCL yet, someone who's better with it than me might be able to), then takes one last tick towards the end. Zero explosions on the raid, zero ironstars spawned. It's more likely someone else fucked up when you used your immunity, rather than the immunity being at fault (after all, why on earth would deterrence work if bubble didn't?).

That's how we did it but moving while doing it is quite impossible(moving when you don't have to worry about range check, in 25, should be easier or am I wrong. that's what i meant here from the beginning). That is the reason we stack every possible raid cd (devo, rallying cry, dk AMZ, PS, sacrifice) to malice holder and the second soaker who also uses personal cds. Other soaker is tank who doesn't need anything.

It hits for about 200k yes, which is quite manageable because malice ticks only 3 times after bombardment starts.

And I don't quite get about your comment about more room? Only thing where it matters is inside malice where we have to be very careful in 10man whereas in 25 there is no need for that. Outside malice we have personal positions for everyone so we don't spawn an iron star but it is easy to organize.

There's always the fact that you could just assign one of the two soakers to leave the other two when a clump check is imminent (happens every... 6-8 seconds? So max twice during the malice). 2x stack (malice+soaker), 1x at the edge of the ring, step out for a second when clump check finishes, step back in. I always thought that was how 10 man did it tbh.

[Deleted]

This reset.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...3903&spell=642
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...s&spell=147235
Can see that consata takes 2 ticks in the second link, then bubbles for the duration of the first link (don't know how to make them overlap on WCL yet, someone who's better with it than me might be able to), then takes one last tick towards the end. Zero explosions on the raid, zero ironstars spawned. It's more likely someone else fucked up when you used your immunity, rather than the immunity being at fault (after all, why on earth would deterrence work if bubble didn't?).



There's always the fact that you could just assign one of the two soakers to leave the other two when a clump check is imminent (happens every... 6-8 seconds? So max twice during the malice). 2x stack (malice+soaker), 1x at the edge of the ring, step out for a second when clump check finishes, step back in. I always thought that was how 10 man did it tbh.

Thanks for proving the bubble. It was then someone else fucking up.

However, your tactic for malice would be as hard to make work as moving with malice. Clump check comes every 3 seconds so moving back and forth would be just as hard. It is a lot better to stand in place and stack cds, but you have to admit it is a loteasier if you can just stack on malice target and move isn't it?