bm bis list?

[Keny]

Id like to try out BM,
But I dont have TED Heroic,
I wonder what will be better, normal TED vs heroic Haromm's.

[Thotor]

heroic haromm is slightly superior to a normal TED - according to sims

[Illana]

You realize haste gives you more meta procs, cloak procs, auto shots, and focus regen as well. I'm not sure why you think haste only increases your pets damage and not the hunters as well.

you realise crit makes those procs, autoshots hit harder more often as well? The focus regen is inconsequential. Over a 10 minute fight the haste you gain over a crit reforge amounts to almost nothing. Having faster casting cobra shots also doesn't do as much as you think you would since all that does is make you wait for shots since you can never get to a point where you can fit another cobra shot in without delaying a shot.

Difference between a BiS crit haste reforge and haste crit reforge is 13% (approx.) so you're going from 5 fps to 5.5 fps so over a 600 second fight you're gaining 300 focus.

using the spreadsheet from this thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...inket-Analysis, difference in uptime of cloak procs between the 2 gear sets is less than 2% and TED uptime the difference is under 3%.

I simmed both sets as well at 1000 iterations each. TED uptime between the two was a difference of 0.03%
scope was 3% uptime difference
5 lightning strikes between the 2
one cloak proc (30 hits)

there's lots more and basically I'm trying to say that rppm is not affected by haste as much as you might have thought it did and when you factor in the fact your pet may not even get all these theoretical attacks in it just blatently swings things in crit's favour.

You're the one making statements, I don't need a counter argument because I'm not trying to make a point, I'm just saying that you're wrong because yes, you are wrong. Now you're just getting all aggressive because you refuse to admit to being wrong.

Thank god the world is not based on random statements without any logical thought or process behind them then.

[anjan011]

Difference between a BiS crit haste reforge and haste crit reforge is 13% (approx.) so you're going from 5 fps to 5.5 fps so over a 600 second fight you're gaining 300 focus.

u forgot to mention, the focus gain due to -

1) faster cast of cobra shot, u can cast way more CS between ur nuke abilities

2) the highers rate of invigoration, which grants u 20 focus.

if u consider the gains u will notice the haste build extra focus gain is not so minimal.

[Illana]

u forgot to mention, the focus gain due to -

1) faster cast of cobra shot, u can cast way more CS between ur nuke abilities

2) the highers rate of invigoration, which grants u 20 focus.

if u consider the gains u will notice the haste build extra focus gain is not so minimal.

faster cast of cobra shot means nothing as I've said before since all it means is that you have dead time before using shots.

invig is based off pet autos, the difference between the two sims were about 40 autoattacks.

[Libertarian]

boss moves, pet autoattack or basic attack is delayed. Haste value goes out the window.

Is this statement for real? I mean seriously. You could have at least argued mastery, but no you chose haste.

[Illana]

Is this statement for real? I mean seriously. You could have at least argued mastery, but no you chose haste.

so tell me why it's wrong, instead of just saying it is.

[Libertarian]

I never said it was wrong. I question it however just because of the shitty track record simcraft has. Was just asking you a honest question on why 10 percent ap would change stat weighs so much.

Effin is actually wrong. I have been H>M>C well before that hotfix and it has always simmed higher (probably back in november?). I'm pretty sure megabloks went H>M>C around the same time I did. Everytime I get a significant upgrade, I sim all the weights. So no 10% AP did not affect our weights that much.

[Littlepinch]

faster cast of cobra shot means nothing as I've said before since all it means is that you have dead time before using shots.

invig is based off pet autos, the difference between the two sims were about 40 autoattacks.

With my haste as is my cobras are 1.5 sec ( the gcd ) w/o rapid or focus fire. So no i don't miss out on shots.
When my cobra is done, so is my gcd

[Illana]

With my haste as is my cobras are 1.5 sec ( the gcd ) w/o rapid or focus fire. So no i don't miss out on shots.
When my cobra is done, so is my gcd

with my haste my cobras are also 1.5 seconds, getting 13% more haste wont make any difference.

[Littlepinch]

with my haste my cobras are also 1.5 seconds, getting 13% more haste wont make any difference.

where does getting 13% come into it? Once you have enough to get it to 1.5 sec there is no need for more so that's a moot point.

Once i got my cobra to 1.5 sec my stats then shifted to crit. But i'v been running Haste(to said amount)>Crit>Mastery All xpac.

You don't just get more haste for the fun of it.

[anjan011]

How do u miss out on shot with faster CS cast? in between Kill COmmands, u have 6 long seconds to spare. u can cast AS in between with enough focus or ToTH proc. or else u will be casting CS. in 6 seconds u can cast 2 CS easily without missing next KC. And, u shouldn't start casting CS, when prime abilities r about to come off CD.

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where does getting 13% come into it? Once you have enough to get it to 1.5 sec there is no need for more so that's a moot point.

Once i got my cobra to 1.5 sec my stats then shifted to crit. But i'v been running Haste(to said amount)>Crit>Mastery All xpac.

You don't just get more haste for the fun of it.

Littlepinch, what the haste rating u have now? i currently have 15.7k. probbaly shouldn't stack more haste on top of it.

[Littlepinch]

How do u miss out on shot with faster CS cast? in between Kill COmmands, u have 6 long seconds to spare. u can cast AS in between with enough focus or ToTH proc. or else u will be casting CS. in 6 seconds u can cast 2 CS easily without missing next KC. And, u shouldn't start casting CS, when prime abilities r about to come off CD.

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Littlepinch, what the haste rating u have now? i currently have 15.7k. probbaly shouldn't stack more haste on top of it.

ummm im at work atm but off the top of my head its something like 13.4 or 13.5k haste. that gets me to 1.52 sec cobras without haste effects.

Went to check and of course i logged in my pvp gear ( damn you arenas )

[Sylvari]

You also have to consider the more Crit you have the less value it has.

If I'm sitting raid buffed at 53% and I get a string of three consecutive crits it does x damage. If I move the Crit down say 3% I still have a decent chance of getting 3 crits (especially when you factor in trinkets/pots/banner). If I move that extra % to mastery or haste I can get more harder hitting hits crits over that same time period.

Granted its a tiny snap shot but I think you all understand what I'm saying. Pretty basic stuff.

[Littlepinch]

You also have to consider the more Crit you have the less value it has.

If I'm sitting raid buffed at 53% and I get a string of three consecutive crits it does x damage. If I move the Crit down say 3% I still have a decent chance of getting 3 crits (especially when you factor in trinkets/pots/banner). If I move that extra % to mastery or haste I can get more harder hitting hits crits over that same time period.

Granted its a tiny snap shot but I think you all understand what I'm saying. Pretty basic stuff.

Totally agree, as our stats get higher our focus shifts abit.
I'm at the point where i don't need more haste, so now my focus is balancing my crit and mastery. My crit isn't as high as your's yet so i still need some crit before shifting back to more mastery.
I think raid buffed im at something like 45% crit

[Illana]

You also have to consider the more Crit you have the less value it has.

If I'm sitting raid buffed at 53% and I get a string of three consecutive crits it does x damage. If I move the Crit down say 3% I still have a decent chance of getting 3 crits (especially when you factor in trinkets/pots/banner). If I move that extra % to mastery or haste I can get more harder hitting hits crits over that same time period.

Granted its a tiny snap shot but I think you all understand what I'm saying. Pretty basic stuff.

Wrong. Crit always retains its value as it's a completely linear damage increase but other stats get more valuable as you get more crit.

Your hypothetical situation is nice but it's not very mathematically sound.

where does getting 13% come into it? Once you have enough to get it to 1.5 sec there is no need for more so that's a moot point.

Once i got my cobra to 1.5 sec my stats then shifted to crit. But i'v been running Haste(to said amount)>Crit>Mastery All xpac.

You don't just get more haste for the fun of it.

Because that's how much more haste I would get if I changed it to a haste>crit setup. I gain so little from it since haste has so many flaws like I've been pointing out already. Nobody has really given any concrete argument as to why you would prioritise haste over crit

[Sylvari]

Wrong. Crit always retains its value as it's a completely linear damage increase but other stats get more valuable as you get more crit.

Your hypothetical situation is nice but it's not very mathematically sound.



Because that's how much more haste I would get if I changed it to a haste>crit setup. I gain so little from it since haste has so many flaws like I've been pointing out already. Nobody has really given any concrete argument as to why you would prioritise haste over crit

Just so I understand. So what you are saying is if I Crit 3x in a row with a Crit build at these levels it does more damage than if I Crit three times in a row withHaste/Mastery. I'm not saying Crit is trash but when you are sitting at high levels it's value is reduced.

Drop some math on me Will Hunting. I think you win the snarky weekly award btw.

[Littlepinch]

Wrong. Crit always retains its value as it's a completely linear damage increase but other stats get more valuable as you get more crit.

Your hypothetical situation is nice but it's not very mathematically sound.



Because that's how much more haste I would get if I changed it to a haste>crit setup. I gain so little from it since haste has so many flaws like I've been pointing out already. Nobody has really given any concrete argument as to why you would prioritise haste over crit

Then there is no way you would have a 1.5sec cobra with your haste lvs without using a haste Cd. It's all about what type of play style meets your needs.

I enjoy the play style of the haste build, that's why "I" use it. I'm not huge into the math I just go with what feels right to "me"
at no time did I say it was the best setup.

Also with more haste comes extra focus regen (as you stated it's not gamebreaking by any means ) however it also increases the focus of your pet ( means more empowered basic attacks over the course of the fight ) and that does add up. Please don't retort at this with movement will make your pet miss extra attacks. If you're smart with micro managing your pet, you will always have blink strike at the rdy for movement or quick target changes.

Haste builds make for a very fluid rotation and for that reason it appeals to me more then the other builds.

[Illana]

Just so I understand. So what you are saying is if I Crit 3x in a row with a Crit build at these levels it does more damage than if I Crit three times in a row withHaste/Mastery. I'm not saying Crit is trash but when you are sitting at high levels it's value is reduced.

Drop some math on me Will Hunting. I think you win the snarky weekly award btw.

Not sure how you inferred that from what I was saying. I'm not going to assume English is your first language so I'll try and put it in a simpler way.

These are the facts:

1% crit will give you 1% more dps (1.03% if using agile meta)

Crit is much more valuable at low levels of it, by this I mean going from 0-1% crit is a MUCH bigger increase to your dps than going from 99-100%

Haste and mastery will gain value as your crit increases since you will either be getting more crits (in terms of haste) or bigger crits (in terms of mastery).



Now at what point these stats start overtaking crit in value is entirely dependent on your gear level or, to break it down into raw numbers, your attack power, haste and mastery.

This was very apparent during the WotLK era with armour penetration where it because a DPS increase to gear for it once over a certain threshold of crit which ended up roughly at around 47% crit and 4.5k AP (without raid buffs).

Unless you are almost BiS warforged in every slot, you are nowhere near this threshold and even if you were ilevel 580+ the amount of damage our secondary stats affect are nowhere near the same proportion as armour penetration was, meaning the point where crit is overtaken by haste is probably not possible in this expansion.

Granted the hunter class is much different than in wrath, the same mathematical principles apply.

Then there is no way you would have a 1.5sec cobra with your haste lvs without using a haste Cd. It's all about what type of play style meets your needs.

I enjoy the play style of the haste build, that's why "I" use it. I'm not huge into the math I just go with what feels right to "me"
at no time did I say it was the best setup.

Also with more haste comes extra focus regen (as you stated it's not gamebreaking by any means ) however it also increases the focus of your pet ( means more empowered basic attacks over the course of the fight ) and that does add up. Please don't retort at this with movement will make your pet miss extra attacks. If you're smart with micro managing your pet, you will always have blink strike at the rdy for movement or quick target changes.

Haste builds make for a very fluid rotation and for that reason it appeals to me more then the other builds.

I have 8630 haste rating, granted my cobra is not quite 1.5 (it's 1.51) but it's close enough.

I see you do not care much about min/maxing. In this case you can do whatever you like really and it won't matter.

The point about bite is a good one, one of the only actual decent arguments put across so far. I will have to sim again to see the difference.

"Fluid rotation" I don't really know what you mean by this. If you play correctly and are good at managing your focus then a 1.45-1.5 second cobra shot is all that is required (to allow for latency).

[Effinhunter]

Effin is actually wrong. I have been H>M>C well before that hotfix and it has always simmed higher (probably back in november?). I'm pretty sure megabloks went H>M>C around the same time I did. Everytime I get a significant upgrade, I sim all the weights. So no 10% AP did not affect our weights that much.

Before this gets taken too far out of context, I was aware of certain profiles that were better H>M>=C before the 5.4.2 patch hit. My guild progression is unlikely to ever present me with full BiS gear, so I live somewhat vicariously through checking out other gear profiles (including yours and Megabloks). I also watch conversations here and on EJ very carefully to try to update the EJ guide to best present the current situation for BM hunters. Unfortunately, before 5.4.2, neither I nor the rest of the community could get the HWF BiS profiles to shoot past the reigning C>=H>M profile for Troll, at the time. However, most profiles for BM can now be pushed ahead by switching to H>M>=C, and Troll has dropped below Orc for the first time since the expansion hit in our BiS profiles (it's only hundreds of dps, but it's nice to see the change). I'm simply reporting what I anticipated from the 5.4.2 change and how I don't think both Simcraft and EJ are both wrong about this reforging.

After seeing what Megabloks was able to do with the reforge before 5.4.2, I was keenly watching the weights and trying to see what parameters actually triggered the change so I could try to beat the BiS profiles we were maintaining. Now, after the change in 5.4.2., it just seems BM is back to favoring haste a bit more.

Still, you can stay C>=H>M and switch between SV and BM without skipping too much of a beat, and I don't see any reason to make fun of people who do stay in that configuration. I do disagree with almost every analysis posted in this thread by Illana. Statements like "1% crit is 1% more dps" are easily disprovable with basic sim work, especially as crit rate climbs, but I've tried to stay out of this thread as it has devolved into a flame war, and I feel that Illana is intentionally stoking the flames now with deliberate trolling.

I will address one specific comment that came up because there are times when I think Illana is being serious and other times where I think it's just too absurd of an argument for any of this to be real. The RPPM spreadsheet that Conjor posted was meant to analyze what RPPM was and help explain the mechanic to the community, and I think it did help the community better understand it. It did not accurately model the in-game RPPM system, only the basic concepts, and the simulators have been tweaked since then, with feedback from logs and in-game testing, to try to model this mechanic as accurately as possible. For this reason, I have found the simulators to be more trustworthy for modeling haste impacts on RPPM than the spreadsheet.

Of course, YMMV. Proceed with caution. Flame on.