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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Deithy View Post
    @OP - if you feel like "underperforming" warlock i envy mate. I really do. Because if i have felt like such i would be happy, because it would be a reason to push myself further :P

    My many cents x)
    It's more towards he feels he can't push his Mage further anymore and just feels like a bad warlock.

  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire Deithy's Avatar
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    The he is not pushing himself enough :P
    Someone once told me not to bite off more than i can chew. I said i would rather choke on Greatness than nibble on Mediocrity.

  3. #43
    At equal ilvl and skill lvl warlocks will beat mages on most fights. Is it okay ? Yeah, there have always been op classes/specs, and we're still EASILY top5 dps on every fight. The only classes that can fairly outdps mages are warlocks (duh), rogues (single target like juggernaut/malkorok) and excellent ferals.

  4. #44
    When mages talk about being underperforming warlocks, it is not about just damage, we simply bring nothing else to the raid besides our damage, which brings up the real point of this thread:

    "Why would you ever bring a Mage when you can bring a 'Mage' that is tankier, is more mobile, does more damage, and provides 3 excellent raid utilities?"

  5. #45
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldvibes View Post
    When mages talk about being underperforming warlocks, it is not about just damage, we simply bring nothing else to the raid besides our damage, which brings up the real point of this thread:

    "Why would you ever bring a Mage when you can bring a 'Mage' that is tankier, is more mobile, does more damage, and provides 3 excellent raid utilities?"
    This being the perfect question for this argument. If it was purely a damage thing, it'd be fine, but no, Warlocks bring so much raid benefit (Gateway, Cookies, and Battlerez*), have a retarded amount of self-healing, cooldowns, and passives to reduce damage taken, are extremely mobile compared to Frost/Arcane, and is better suited to DPS in almost every situation. The only thing we have on Warlocks it that we can take 2 really big hits back to back (Ice Block + L60 Talent), but granted, they probably have enough cooldowns and other self-utility things to at least block 1 big hit. Honestly, why the hell would you bring a Mage when you can just bring a Warlock?




    * Only one matters on 10 or three on 25 though, so this kinda doesn't count since I don't count Time Warp as a real raid benefit for the same reason.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  6. #46
    Fluffy Kitten Siri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Honestly, why the hell would you bring a Mage when you can just bring a Warlock?
    Need one mage so the resto druid can get ice block!

  7. #47
    Good! You should feel like one.
    #WarlockMasterRace2014
    But agreed, destro is op.
    High dmg for almost no effort?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    Jaylock more like Gayblock

  8. #48
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnol Sinep View Post
    Good! You should feel like one.
    #WarlockMasterRace2014
    But agreed, destro is op.
    High dmg for almost no effort?
    Oh man, I can't believe how easy destro is. My 520 destro lock kills things almost as fast as my 575 mage because of ridiculous chaos bolt scaling. When I found out how easy destro was, I had to give my lock guildie a ribbing. There is zero reason I should ever beat a 578 destro lock, yet I do every time.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Microchaton View Post
    At equal ilvl and skill lvl warlocks will beat mages on most fights. Is it okay ? Yeah, there have always been op classes/specs, and we're still EASILY top5 dps on every fight. The only classes that can fairly outdps mages are warlocks (duh), rogues (single target like juggernaut/malkorok) and excellent ferals.
    Well we are not even in top5 i dont know how your guild but our full hc gered monks with 450k dps just shit on us with warlocks. I perform how good as i want but there is no way how i can get into top5 in my guild with my mage. I am around 350k dps on every fight but still it istn enough.

  10. #50
    I'm pretty much first on every fight in my guild, but it's 10 man and we have no warlocks/rogues/dps monks/warriors. That being say I see mages in top guilds get top5 or better regularly. Do you have logs to provide where you're performing extremly well and still can't get top 5 on any fight ? Not saying it's impossible, but mages are HARDLY trash-tier atm.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Oh man, I can't believe how easy destro is. My 520 destro lock kills things almost as fast as my 575 mage because of ridiculous chaos bolt scaling. When I found out how easy destro was, I had to give my lock guildie a ribbing. There is zero reason I should ever beat a 578 destro lock, yet I do every time.
    Come on now we don't need to start this. There's nothing exceptionally difficult about maxing dps as a mage compared to doing absolute maximum damage as a destro warlock. Nothing at all. What do we do snapshot dots like destro maxes chaos bolts/shadowburns with their procs and immolate refreshes? Minimize movement? Like a warlock would with AD? They're both easy.

  12. #52
    Brewmaster Methusula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey One View Post
    Come on now we don't need to start this. There's nothing exceptionally difficult about maxing dps as a mage compared to doing absolute maximum damage as a destro warlock. Nothing at all. What do we do snapshot dots like destro maxes chaos bolts/shadowburns with their procs and immolate refreshes? Minimize movement? Like a warlock would with AD? They're both easy.
    Start what exactly? I wasn't saying Mage was hard. But the fact remains that we have to jump through hoops Locks don't. When you design a class/spec, you need to be cognizant of how it makes people feel. There are restrictions for Mage that make myself and at least a vocal minority feel punished rather than rewarded. Warlock design feels like it has a lot more freedom and flexibility to me.

    Having said all that, I have little doubt the two classes will see changes in WoD that address this. We just have to hope something else doesn't break as a result.

  13. #53
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    I don't feel this way, probably because I don't use alts so I don't have a Warlock to compare. Knowing their kit doesn't really give me the necessary experience.

    However, when I play my resto shaman I sometimes feel like an underpowered elemental shaman. Then I remember that I'm a healer

  14. #54
    Pandaren Monk Mush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    He's all decked out in Epics now
    "epics"
    these are both epics, but they are VASTLY different.

    Yak Wool Robe
    Akolik's Acid-Soaked Robes

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mush View Post
    "epics"
    Mm, being fully epic lost it's meaning after vanilla, or rather already at the end of vanilla. The crazy gear inflation that we have so that gearing up is "meaningful" leads to epics mean nothing if all raid difficulties drop epic loot. In vanilla it used to be that only the most active raiders had full epic even in BWL times, I don't remember PvP, but I think even Warlords had to go to ZG to get their epic trinket and use the blue "pvp trinket".

    Long story short, as everything that was awesome in vanilla, being fully epic has lost it's meaning. In the current expansion we were doing 80-100k dps in "full epics" and now we are doing 5 times that dps.

  16. #56
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    I think it was a much better game design when all tiers were concurrently relevant, or staggered and relevant.

    I was a druid back then (mage was my alt), and I recall wearing several pieces from Naxx40, AQ40, BWL, and I think I even held on to a couple pieces from MC too.

    I defeated Nefarian as one of the top performers in the 40-man while wearing a couple blues. You couldn't help it, there were 40 people in a raid and only 2 items dropped. Even if you were the king of DKP, you'd go months without seeing an item. I knew many people who farmed Ragnaros for well over a year and never got their Tier 2 pants.

    So why is that better? Well on the surface it sucks, because everyone wants to keep improving, but the overall big-picture was that loot felt epic. We felt epic. The content was doable without it, but better with it-- and when you were one of the dudes in mostly Naxx gear, you were a legendary champion of Azeroth and everyone drooled. If you were a druid with AQ40 gear, you felt like a god among men, finally able to unleash the power of all of your specs-- at once.

    Anyway, even with its faults, I still prefer that method of end-game design to the current one of obscene scaling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Start what exactly? I wasn't saying Mage was hard. But the fact remains that we have to jump through hoops Locks don't. When you design a class/spec, you need to be cognizant of how it makes people feel. There are restrictions for Mage that make myself and at least a vocal minority feel punished rather than rewarded. Warlock design feels like it has a lot more freedom and flexibility to me.

    Having said all that, I have little doubt the two classes will see changes in WoD that address this. We just have to hope something else doesn't break as a result.
    I'm cautious about agreeing with you, though I am with your spirit on the mage-end of things. I think I've just gotten to a point where I tolerate our problems but still really love it overall (only frost, can't stand the other two).

    But I'd take being forced to use invocation AND Rune of Power concurrently over being a warlock. I've tried all 3 of the warlock specs and I can't stand them. Alternate resources are not rewarding to me at all. I can't stand the flow or feel of warlock, and as far as thematics go, I think I'd rather watch a NASCAR race-- but maybe that's just me. It's not my style, and I don't care how good it is, I would never and could never enjoy a warlock.

  17. #57
    Field Marshal zandiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Only time I experience warlocks beating me is when there's multidot and they're outside cleave range.

    I can't keep up unless NT can cleave. On single target I generally win.
    Either you discovered how to play frost mage on a whole new level or, and this is what i think, the warlocks in your guild is super bad and not playing the right spec.

  18. #58
    It was clearly the funniest post of the week :D

  19. #59
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    Need one mage so the resto druid can get ice block!
    We don't even hold the title of "Best Restoration Symbiosis Partner"! Deterrence from Hunters is the exact same thing, except they can move and it's a significantly shorter cooldown.

    Now if you don't have a Hunter, then I guess we're the next bext thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by zandiy View Post
    Either you discovered how to play frost mage on a whole new level or, and this is what i think, the warlocks in your guild is super bad and not playing the right spec.
    No waaaaaaaay. The Warlocks that are failing to beat Akraen are totally the best Warlocks eveeeeeer. Akraen has clearly discovered enlightenment in Frost playability.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  20. #60
    Field Marshal zandiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    No waaaaaaaay. The Warlocks that are failing to beat Akraen are totally the best Warlocks eveeeeeer. Akraen has clearly discovered enlightenment in Frost playability.
    Ye which means his point is invalid

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