1. #1

    25man Heroic Norushen Assistance

    Morning all.

    We're progressing on Norushen 25man heroic (just moved up from 10man to 25man), and we're running into issues.

    Here are our logs for last night: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...um/damageDone/

    I'm aware our rogue & trial hunter are under performing - I didn't have anyone else to replace them with last night unfortunately.

    We're consistently getting to 22-24% when he hits the berserk timer.

    --
    Our tactic(s) have involved the following: We've tried sending in groups of 3 dps, and using 2 tanks (and 5 healers) - It didn't feel like we were getting purified quick enough.

    So we changed to sending in 4 DPS each time, and having 3 tanks and 5 healers.

    Both tactics resulted in about 22-25% wipes, multiple times.

    We're usually at about 55% on the boss (at about 2 minutes and 45 seconds on the berserk timer left - guesstimated time) and we've got everyone purified by then.

    Are we too slow at getting people purified?

    Do we need to take less healers? Less tanks?

    Do we need to purify ALL of the DPS? Is it better to stop sending people in and start nuking the boss sooner?

    I've seen kill videos where it looks like our DPS is higher than those in the kill, yet they seem to be much further ahead - percentage wise - at the time when we are purified.

    Yes, sure "You need more DPS" is a valid response - but how much more is needed? Would replacing 2-3 lesser DPS really make up that extra 22-25%?

    Any help would be greatly appreciated, and if you have any questions I'd be happy to answer them - I'll be around all day.

    Thanks all
    Last edited by Akkarin; 2014-01-31 at 08:19 AM.

  2. #2
    Here are some tips on how we have been doing that encounter:
    2 tanks - 4 healers - rest dps. Can add a 5th healer if you feel the need for it (should not be needed though).
    always be stacked - healers and tanks deal with absorbing pools left over from big add deaths. Make sure no purified dps does that or they loose a lot of damage.
    send 3 of your highest single target damage dealers in at start (classwise rogues are good for instance). The moment they kill their big add inside, you ask for a new dps to step in.
    The main idea is to, at all times, have 3 dps in the shadow realm. Usually this will mean: calling out the name of the next person in-line to go in every 8-10 seconds or so. Do not send in too many at once (one at a time but at constant rate). Once he hits 50% everyone tunnels the boss, ranged finishes off adds (destro locks are awesome there).

    above 50%: purified DPS focus on boss, non-purified dps focus on adds. Have a big add team (DK is very solid for it, warrior can do it) that can taunt and immediately stun them out of group. Avoid moving too much. Check if beam will require you to move and do so when raid dmg is stable.

    I'll have a look at logs, but damage will be very inconsistent depending on who you send in first. I believe you're sending in people too slow. the first 50% HP on the boss, when progressing, should make for a continuous stream of adds in the normal realm. People who are not purified deal 100% dmg to these adds (and subsequently to the boss as that dmg is copied). People who are purified should not be touching them even. Your warlock is purified for instance from the start and is highest on dmg on these (likely shadowburn sniping which isn't the worst thing to do), Thing is he is already doing 100% dmg to boss, while your other non-purified only have those adds to do decent dmg to boss. Get purified to tunnel boss, get non-purified to focus adds over boss. Once everyone is purified, some burst ranged classes can stay on add finish duty, rest go ham on boss. Bloodlust once everyone is purified -> see boss melt.

    Your main thing to do however is: make sure at all times three dps are in the shadow realm getting purified. Boss will reach 50% way quicker than what you're doing now.
    Last edited by rumbo; 2014-01-31 at 08:32 AM.
    Bovine Intervention - www.bovine-intervention.eu - 3-evening 25 man HC raiding - always recruiting

  3. #3
    They way my guild handles is is sending down 5 groups of 5. The first group is one tank and 4 healers, then it's just 5 groups of 5 dps with healers/tanks soaking the orbs.

    As far as how much more damage, I can't put a value on it, but your guild is doing about half overall dps than mine. I can't really look through all of your raiders and see if they are doing something wrong, but it's quite easy to get everyone purified by the 2 minute mark. For reference, the last dps to get purified for my guild this week got it at 1:44 into the fight.

    We run 6heals 2tanks

    If you can speed up the purification then you'll have no problem with the enrage. The easiest way to do so is to assign 2-3 in each group the kill their big add first, and the other part of the group to kill theirs last, so you dont get 5 big adds up all at once.

    And the people who aren't purified should focus 100% on adds since when they die they take health from the boss as well.

    Doing the rapid purification will take a lot of chained raid cd's but after everyone is settled the fight doesn't need much in the way of healing.

  4. #4
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    I think our guild does it a strange way, but we send down 3 DPS first, then sets of two after that constantly. When the first three adds die a healer and two DPS soak and then go in themselves. After that two people soak their adds, and repeat. Not quite sure when healers or Tanks go in tbh - I don't pay attention - I think they just either go in without soaking or pick up slack from those who were meant to soak.

    Everyone should have been purified by the time you get to about 50% and you keep killing small adds, tank the big adds but don't kill them, and burn the boss otherwise. Nobody should be spending longer than 35-40s in the other phase or they're taking too long. Always kill big add first so other people can soak and go down too.

    The biggest problem we had (still have, somehow), is that people forget the damage you do to the adds is done to the boss as well - and you also do full damage to the adds so it is actually more DPS (besides movement) to hit the adds before you get purified. You just need to shove it down peoples throat that adds are higher priority than boss - to always soak - and you'll eventually get it.
    Last edited by Treelife; 2014-01-31 at 08:39 AM.

  5. #5
    Yes
    No
    Yes
    Adds > Boss
    Healers can be purified last at 50% and lower as they have no adds spawning
    Then they can be the ones responsible for soaking the later adds
    Should only need to run 2 tanks, and just adjust better
    With our first group going down, its 4 dps and a tank,
    Then every 8-12 seconds sending 2 dps down

    Adds are priority, highest dps to be purified first
    If one or both of your priests can roll disc your looking at another 200ish k dps
    Healing output is slightly low from your holy pally, nit picking but SH spec is great for that fight
    another bit of dps

    Also 2 of your hunters appear to be under performing, which was as you said a rogue and a hunter trial, but there is another which is low etc.

    Lust at round 50%, or lower choice is yours.
    2-3 dps would help
    But on top of that there are like 7 people who need another 50-90k more dps to help.

    Just some food for thought.

  6. #6
    to add to my post also: none of the dps should be getting corruption from soaking pools. Make sure your healers have a set rotation from start who goes in in what order, and then those healers are always responsible for soaking pools. Remember that healers and tanks going into shadowrealm = no adds come out in normal realm (that's only for DPSers). So at start: one healer, one tank and 3 dps in, from then on make sure at all times 3 dps are in shadow realm. Healers and tanks are always responsible for soaking.

    Use devotion auras, smoke bombs, barriers, AMZ when things get tense dmg wise. You're always cuddled up so area defensives ftw.
    Bovine Intervention - www.bovine-intervention.eu - 3-evening 25 man HC raiding - always recruiting

  7. #7
    Thanks for the responses so far guys.

    I forgot to mention that currently we are sending 4 groups of 4 DPS down - 2 kill their big add first and 2 kill it last so as to stagger the spawning of the big adds upstairs
    - it's possible that they are taking too long down there in the test realm
    - it's also possible that we're taking too long to send the next group down

    We have a rotation for the tanks and healers to do the soaking and apart from 1 or 2 mistakes, the DPS are not soaking anything.

    That said, maybe it would be quicker to purify if we had a constant stream of people going in every 8-10 seconds as mentioned.

    Reading all the responses and taking all the advice onboard!

  8. #8
    here's how we do it:

    - 6 heals, 2 tanks (we tried less heals, but people die)
    - 4 melees + 1 heal go down immediately. I don't know exactly when the remaining heals go down, they do their own thing
    - of those 4 melees, 2 nuke big add first, 1 nukes big add after killing 2 small, 1 nukes big add after killing 3 smalls
    - all dps hug the big adds, whoever gets the shadow orb goes down (we had to do this because our guys were just plain bad at collecting these things)
    - non purified dps focus on adds, purified just multidot/cleave a bit and nuke boss. If there's too many of them up, raidlead calls out for everyone to switch for a couple of seconds to burst them down.
    - if there's still non purified dps left at ~60% they go down anyway
    - clear the remaining adds, bloodlust at 50%
    - usually second bloodlust at 45% because some stragglers were too slow -.-
    - all remaining orbs get soaked by heals and tanks
    - all remaining big adds get multidotted away from the raid or just offtanked/stunned sub 10%

    Usually we're pretty tight on the enrage due to running with 6 heals, but we just can't manage anything less, no idea why. Thus if more than 2 dps die without battlerez it's a wipe

    Also, looking at your logs your damage seems pretty low overall. Our guys usually hover between 250k (for people going down late) and 360-380k (the 4 melees going down first). Our absolute rock-bottom guys are still at ~200k.

  9. #9
    Thanks for the detailed description there Gabe.

    I take it that as soon as the DPS have soaked the shadow orb (in your group), they are immediately going down - which then creates a steady stream of the Big adds in the normal realm.
    Also means we don't really need to call out who goes next, as it should be obvious. 100% corruption = go get purified.

    If you are stacking up like that, and having the DPS soak, how are you keeping the purified DPS clean? - Assuming they also stack. Do you just tank the large add ontop of DPS that have not soaked yet / have not been purified?

  10. #10
    Hi

    First of all hello fellow EU_draenor guy. If your rogue wants some questions/tip/helps tell him to whisper shadohw or bekky in game i will be happy to help. Nevertheless he can drop a post in the rogue forums here we do like to help. So on to your boss fight

    The way our guild does it is to send 3 dps down at tje very start. (I assume you can do 4 with everyones trinkets and buffs up those adds wont be a problem). We send our melee in first (2 rogues and feral druid at pull) as they will only focus the boss while ranged will spam the adds while mutlidotting the boss etc. As the healers whisper in healing channel about their rotation i am unaware of what they do but i assume its like every 3 dps or when ever we forget to soak the ball. Unless you have disc priests i wouldnt assume thats it is vital to their healing for them to get purified.
    The trick to this fight is to not overwhelmed with adds while depending on your raid to soak their big adds before going into the test. We just made a macro that lists every dps 1 to ....... and with the order of going in. As the big add spawns into the room call out the dps to go soak the add and enter. We use the 4th big add for the tank. Remind your dps that the damage done to adds is done to boss too so if you are not purified the add dmg is prio. Saying this every dps bar pure single target specs have some way of dmging the adds and boss and should in effort to double dip on the boss dmg. #

    The pattern should be dps in, big add out, soak dps in. Do this over and over and the boss will die. It is optimal to use lust the second the last dps comes out but it is more practical to use it when you hit around 35% or when there is 1min left on the beserk timer which ever comes first since at our first couple of kills we were kinda slow getting purified. This is when execute phases come in and second potions (btw the rogue doesnt have the cloak or meta gem so thats about 40-50k dps right there, if you can get him to play combat when he gets weapons he can cleave the adds and boss at the same time, PS get him to use cheat death it will save his ass more times than he will be able to count). Getting one of your priests to go disc btw is going to benefit you in the long run alot. Disc priests are just too strong to have in the raid especially in fights where everyone is so stacked. There a few silly deaths which you need to stop getting such as to the beam and the boss doing too much dmg because adds arent being interupted thats not a mechanic you can ignore easily for your first kill.

    I would definatly say put your best melee in first then best ranged followed after. If needed definately replace dps who under perform, i would take a chance on the rogue and let him go in first for a couple of tries he should just tunnel the boss his dps will improve vastly sub 35% and you should see an improvement. Cant think of much more to say really. Good luck if you kill it

  11. #11
    Heya Shadohw (woot draenor!)

    Thanks for the response. I'll pass your name along to our rogue. He's in the process of getting his legendary stuff sorted, hopefully he will have it soon.
    But thanks a lot for the offer of help, I hope he takes you up on it.

    I'll be asking one of our priests to go disc.

    I think we'll be doing what you've mentioned (and very similar to what others have mentioned), by getting DPS to soak the shadow orbs then enter the test realm.
    Question(s) I have for you:
    Who soaks the first three shadow orbs?
    Do you have a constant stream of large adds spawning(one after the other) in the normal realm or is it 3 adds coming at a time, being soaked, then 3 more dps going in, etc.

  12. #12
    So the macro will say something like 123. Rogue rogue druid. This is the first bunch of people to go in at the start. Then the macro reads 1,....,2.....,3......,4......,17 Shit boomkin (lol he is our GM ssssh). The first add that comes out number 1 will soak then second add number 2 will soak. The number corresponds to the the ball to soak. Its a pretty simple tactic however it requires someone to stay on top of remembering who to soak which add. We have our tank do this but tbh anyone can. Its easier if you have the last person or a healer step up for it as since people go into the test they will lose track of which add is which. I guess you could have someone take over for you when you go in calling. How you deal with that is up to you. What tends to happen is that in our raids someone will lose track and not soak in which case the orb pulses and does loads of AOE dmg. In that case its better if a healer or tank soaks the ball quickly to stop aoe dmg but the dps next in line should go in anyway. Soaking the orb before going inside is just a bonus but not essential at the end of the day you want to get purified as quick as possible. Well the adds tend to come up at similar times at first but it honestly depends on how the person inside kills it. We tried staggering the adds but it didnt really make too much of a noticable difference. It will really test how good your dps are at switching targets quickly and efficiently. We had a couple of deaths to big adds not being tanked when some came up quickly together so ensure your dps either A, waits for the tank to pick it up or B, misdirects. Never ever ever ever kill the add on top of your raid the ball will spawn and corrupt people again. I havent taken a look at your raid comp but with 25mans you should have enough grips/stuns to keep it locked down and out of the way. Making sure you stun the big and small adds is important when you can. Well placed aoe stuns and single stuns can help alot when dealing with adds. The first 3 orbs get soaked by our other melee 2dks and what ever we have left usually a warrior or enh( if he isnt playing ele), Then the ranged cycle begins. I assume the officers set it up so the people at the end are people who can pretty much full time the small adds rather than the boss. Announce prior to your lust so people can hold cds, the kill for us atleast was after enrage so give it everything you have. Healers dps too if possible at the end there since you will be all stacked and with your healing comp aoe healing shouldnt be and issue. We use big healing cds when multiple big adds are up together to minimise the toll on the raid. After the second phase the tanks just start soaking the big adds that spawn and decide on a cut off point on when your dps should stop going in because you dont want a dps going in with 1 min to enrage.

    I think thats everything.

  13. #13
    Another way of doing it here from our strat. 6 healers, 2 tanks.

    We send in 2 DPS that kill the big mob immediately so adds spawn in pairs, as soon as the "BIG ADD SPAWNING IN 5...4..3.." bigwig message appears the next pair of DPS go in and do the same kill big add asap. This means that big adds are more or less constant but only 2 at a time so they die to cleaves and tank DPS. Healers go in 1 at a time as each comes out. First tank starts on boss for 10 seconds to get vengeance then goes in and 2nd tank as soon as he comes out.

    Only healers and Tanks soak orbs and only DPS that are NOT purified kill the little adds, we actually leave a warlock out the while fight dotting up the little adds. You should then hit the 50% mark with everyone purified ready for the hard nuke last part, the tanks then take the last 5 orbs to soak during this part, taking adds to boss to die to cleaves.

    It works for us since first kill. Make sure you send your highest DPS in first few waves ofc.
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  14. #14
    my guild does a wierd strat, we run 4 tanks 4 healers and 17 dps, only our tanks soak orbs and after 50% we dont touch the big adds once everyone if clean. and our tanks keep their vengeance up by swapping the boss around.

    your dps looks low and you constantly have 4-5 people under 100k that are not tanks. remember that you doo 100% of the damage done to the adds to the boss, so if anyone has any corruption, they should be on the adds. if your healers are not having any mana issues they can toss some dps on the adds. you need to have the people work on their rotation and maybe get them some more gear to help their numbers.
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    my teacher looked at my answer and laughed. i got bonus points because of it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kifimbo View Post
    your dps looks low and you constantly have 4-5 people under 100k that are not tanks. remember that you doo 100% of the damage done to the adds to the boss, so if anyone has any corruption, they should be on the adds. if your healers are not having any mana issues they can toss some dps on the adds. you need to have the people work on their rotation and maybe get them some more gear to help their numbers.
    If you have healers capable of "tossing some dps", they should go get cleansed first. We always send all the Discs there at once (well, unless it'd be some absurd healing combo that would leave no one outside) and ignore the adds entirely. Double dipping atonement is quite nice.

  16. #16
    Blademaster Alogon's Avatar
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    We used this strat (and dev an addon) for our kill (2 tank / 6 heals) :

    - Send 3-4 people at pull.
    - Send one people down each 15sec after that. (in this way you don't have 3-4 big add at the same time)
    - Everyone clean == BLOODLUST

    You can use http://www.wowace.com/addons/blt-norushen/ for the rotation.

    If you can't still kill the boss after everyone have been purified (~14DPS * 15 sec ~= 3'30) then you have a problem with your DPS !

    The most common problem is people who get corruption after being purified. Setup your UI to track people with Purified and yell to bad people !

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post
    Thanks for the detailed description there Gabe.

    I take it that as soon as the DPS have soaked the shadow orb (in your group), they are immediately going down - which then creates a steady stream of the Big adds in the normal realm.
    Also means we don't really need to call out who goes next, as it should be obvious. 100% corruption = go get purified.

    If you are stacking up like that, and having the DPS soak, how are you keeping the purified DPS clean? - Assuming they also stack. Do you just tank the large add ontop of DPS that have not soaked yet / have not been purified?
    Yeah, as soon as you're full you go down without calling out anything. Our main problem when progressing was keeping the order of dps going down steady and correct. I can't count how many times some random guy took my puddle when it would have been my turn or ignoring puddles near them because it wasn't their turn yet. Also, throughout the fight teamspeak was cluttered with people constantly calling out the next person in line and someone would often miss or misshear their name. After a dozen or so grueling wipes weeks after the first kill we basically said: fuck that, everyone hugs the add.

    As to your question: The purified don't stack. Imagine a healing rain or mushroom circle: The tank does his best to keep adds at the north end of it (towards the boss) with non-purified dps already waiting there, while the purified dps and healers stand at the southern end of the circle (further away from the boss). We usually mark both tanks and the first healer to go down so everyone knows where to stand and the basic rule of thumb for purified ranged dps is: don't go near the boss, there may be puddles spawning in the clusterfuck in front of you

    That way, the only time a puddle isn't soaked immediately is when the boss casts his beam (starting near the raid) and everyone has to run while an add is close to death and can't simply be dragged along. If you're quick a dk may be able to grip it, otherwise someone who's able to run through the beam (like Hunters with deterrence) has to get that puddle. But that's a problem you'll face no matter what tactic you run with
    Last edited by Gabe; 2014-01-31 at 12:58 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    If you have healers capable of "tossing some dps", they should go get cleansed first. We always send all the Discs there at once (well, unless it'd be some absurd healing combo that would leave no one outside) and ignore the adds entirely. Double dipping atonement is quite nice.
    they dont need to cleanse if they hit the adds, since they doo 100% dmg to the adds.
    Scrapbot Was Here.
    I was asked a simple question in school today; 3 men walk into a bar, 1 orders a Margarita, 1 orders a Screwdriver, and the third orders the largest glass of Guinness he could get. Which on is gay?
    My answer: The one who bought the Guinness because he gave it to me.
    my teacher looked at my answer and laughed. i got bonus points because of it.

  19. #19
    Thanks guys, we're looking at the options! I know for a fact that we had a lot more focus on the adds, the cleansed players were still focussing on the adds a lot, resulting in some downtime for the people who weren't cleansed as they had no adds to apply their 100% damage to.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kifimbo View Post
    they dont need to cleanse if they hit the adds, since they doo 100% dmg to the adds.
    Or... they can destroy their test in 20 seconds and hit boss for 125% *and* get more healing from Purified bonus.

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