So what do you guys think about them removing stun on Warrior's Charge?

[Dishonoured]

Still, charge DID stun in vanilla, my response was for that since i saw a lot of ppl saying otherwise. Also, even now charge can bug the old way nullifying your gap closer, its more rare but still happens.
Give me intercept and i can bear the vanilla charge, but my best guess is that you wouldn't want that, hell i bet you all would still complain about warriors even if they did 1 damage.

"I bet you all would still complain about Warriors, give me Intercept and I can bear the Vanilla charge" -- I read this as I see how Warrior stance dancing/shield requirements have been removed. A lot of classes/spec haves lost the "iconic" part of an ability(ala: Chaos Bolt hitting through Bubble/Block, Shadowform reducing 15% damage[jk it's back to it's Vanilla standard], Windfury totem/totems in general, Aimed Strike, Mind Control, Blizzard) and those classes have dealt with it. Warriors now have an option between a Root(and instant pummel if they need be for interrupt) or a Stun on 20 second CD and reduced uptime(which is already near 100%). You can't have the best of every world.

[Flaks]

So much misinformation and lack of understanding in this thread.

Whether the stun component is "iconic" or not is not the problem. It's necessity is. And it is DAMN necessary. When warriors start to utterly fail at keeping on their targets that have freedoms and/or shorter cd escapes warriors will be hung out to dry. The class will be forced to spec Warbringer and if not, will end up going shockwave/storm bolt going from the class with the most spec diversity of any class ever to nearly the opposite end; Blizzard will have ultimately failed at their goal of allowing spec diversity while at the same time making the game more imbalanced.

I've proposed my solution: remove access to shockwave and/or stormbolt for arms warriors. Those things should never have been made available to warrior dps specs anyways (the same goes for any other spec specific ability that became accessible to other specs of a class).

Charge stun is pivotal to a warrior's role in PvP. Always has been and will continue to be until a warrior has a reliable way to not get slowed or keep it's target in place following a charge. Having to follow every charge with a stormbolt or shockwave is going to suck ass.

- - - Updated - - -

"I bet you all would still complain about Warriors, give me Intercept and I can bear the Vanilla charge" -- I read this as I see how Warrior stance dancing/shield requirements have been removed. A lot of classes/spec haves lost the "iconic" part of an ability(ala: Chaos Bolt hitting through Bubble/Block, Shadowform reducing 15% damage[jk it's back to it's Vanilla standard], Windfury totem/totems in general, Aimed Strike, Mind Control, Blizzard) and those classes have dealt with it. Warriors now have an option between a Root(and instant pummel if they need be for interrupt) or a Stun on 20 second CD and reduced uptime(which is already near 100%). You can't have the best of every world.

Charge has never been the "best of every world". Other things have though such as root immunity avatar, tfb stacks, untrinketable stun on throwdown. Notice how all of those have existed only in the last 2 expansions. For the most part warrior abilities that have existed since before then didn't cause major imbalances charge very much being one of them.

[Deleted]

"I bet you all would still complain about Warriors, give me Intercept and I can bear the Vanilla charge" -- I read this as I see how Warrior stance dancing/shield requirements have been removed. A lot of classes/spec haves lost the "iconic" part of an ability(ala: Chaos Bolt hitting through Bubble/Block, Shadowform reducing 15% damage[jk it's back to it's Vanilla standard], Windfury totem/totems in general, Aimed Strike, Mind Control, Blizzard) and those classes have dealt with it. Warriors now have an option between a Root(and instant pummel if they need be for interrupt) or a Stun on 20 second CD and reduced uptime(which is already near 100%). You can't have the best of every world.

You act like warriors lost anything that they had for a long time or had it heavily changed or nerfed.
Also "You can't have the best of every world", warriors never had the best of every world, that spot is taken by mages and every now and then by rogues, locks and hunters.

[Deleted]

I also think that charge is not the problem and is a crucial thing for warriors to function.

They should rather directly get to the root of the problem and switching stormbolt with bladestorm.
Problem solved. This was a solution that has been suggested since 5.1? But for some stupid reason devs rather tinker around perfectly fine abilities to cause more imbalances than go with the obvious one.

[Deleted]

I also think that charge is not the problem and is a crucial thing for warriors to function.

They should rather directly get to the root of the problem and switching stormbolt with bladestorm.
Problem solved. This was a solution that has been suggested since 5.1? But for some stupid reason devs rather tinker around perfectly fine abilities to cause more imbalances than go with the obvious one.

This, so many others ways to fix warriors but for some reason they always go the wrong way.

[Dishonoured]

You act like warriors lost anything that they had for a long time or had it heavily changed or nerfed.
Also "You can't have the best of every world", warriors never had the best of every world, that spot is taken by mages and every now and then by rogues, locks and hunters.

Warriors also didn't use to have almost 100% uptime. All I see is "whine whine whine" is an insistent form of "the sky is falling" when you now actually have to choose between a Root/Stun/Double Root instead of Stun/Double Stun. In it's current state you have either a Double gap closer or a 12 second gap closer or a 3 second stun.


"Best of every world" -- No stance dancing, no shield requirement(Shield Reflect/Wall), Permanent -25% damage reduction if needed, pretty ridiculous healing below 35% HP, about 12 ways to stop a person from casting, a bleed that can tick for 50,000 damage, an execute that requires no thought process, the ability to be immune to all forms of CC that has no counter(if talented), the ability to break roots(if talented[again]), 3 different stuns. Shall I continue? The entire point of the stun in the skills original form was to hold a target in place long enough for your character to move through the world to catch them. It's a GAP CLOSER. Not a "Charge stun -- CC chain starts from there". Learn to adapt.

[Flaks]

Warriors also didn't use to have almost 100% uptime. All I see is "whine whine whine" is an insistent form of "the sky is falling" when you now actually have to choose between a Root/Stun/Double Root instead of Stun/Double Stun. In it's current state you have either a Double gap closer or a 12 second gap closer or a 3 second stun.


"Best of every world" -- No stance dancing, no shield requirement(Shield Reflect/Wall), Permanent -25% damage reduction if needed, pretty ridiculous healing below 35% HP, about 12 ways to stop a person from casting, a bleed that can tick for 50,000 damage, an execute that requires no thought process, the ability to be immune to all forms of CC that has no counter(if talented), the ability to break roots(if talented[again]), 3 different stuns. Shall I continue? The entire point of the stun in the skills original form was to hold a target in place long enough for your character to move through the world to catch them. It's a GAP CLOSER. Not a "Charge stun -- CC chain starts from there". Learn to adapt.

You know, I can pick literally any class, list every one of their abilities and make them sound OP. Even shadow priests.

"The entire point of the stun in the skills original form was to hold a target in place long enough for your character to move through the world to catch them."

Also on that part, guess what? Target with freedom effect? Can't catch your target.

No one's denying warriors needed nerfs. But this is an utterly stupid way to go about it. Most people wouldn't complain if stormbolt and bladestorm switched places so warriors could only have one or the other. Hell, completely losing access to shockwave as arms would be a better solution than this. I'd go so far as to say not having BOTH shockwave and stormbolt would be better.

[Nuditea]

It'd be nice if they could just copy+paste Wrath's Warrior model, it was much more fun, refined and had a higher skill floor so people couldn't re-roll and face-smash everyone.

I don't think complaining about gap closers is warranted either; you have Charge, Heroic Leap and Intervene Banner. With the addition of Banner, that's basically a gap closer; both Leap and Banner can be used offensively and defensively quite well, too.

What should be done is Stormbolt should replace Bladestorm and vice versa, so there's no longer access to two stuns. Both would be buffed accordingly, to match their tier counterparts. If not that, then leave Charge stun as is and just making it affected by diminishing returns. As a stun (THE most powerful CC), giving it no DR is asking for trouble; it'd even give Warriors a smarter playstyle, making them think more before they Charge you, followed by a Stormbolt/Shockwave and kill you in a stun before you can do anything.

[Illana]

how did this turn into a discussion about double time?

Also you had intervene and leap as well as double time, don't pretend double time nerfed your mobility, it really didn't.

[Deleted]

Warriors always had 2 charges.

1. Charge at the start of the fight to close the gap
2. Interept with a 3sec stun on a 15 sec cooldown.

SO compare it to how it is now: Only Charge with 1,5sec stun but 2 charges on a 20sec cooldown.


Yes Warriors can spec into Stormbolt and Shockwave now, but so do other classes aswell.
May I remind Firemages that they didn't have deepfreeze or Frostjaws back in time?

It seems that people tend to forget that warriors have not been the only class that got several new options with the talent tree revamp.


Back in those days warriors even had macestun and were able to stick on most classes like glue. The only class that had been able to get away from Warriors were frost mages. And those are stupidly overpowered aswell and always have been.

[Flaks]

how did this turn into a discussion about double time?

Also you had intervene and leap as well as double time, don't pretend double time nerfed your mobility, it really didn't.

Double time just flat out isn't used in competitive play. It DOES nerf your mobility in comparison to Juggernaut.

People also need to consider that this change would make warriors weaker against classes they were already weak against (classes with super low cd gap openers and/or freedom effects) but buffs them like insanity against classes they were already strong against (classes without gap openers and/or freedom effects).

It's just exacerbating the problems and not fixing ANYTHING.

[koljach]

I hope many of you warriors are bitter, disappointed and furious. I sincerely do. As someone who has been playing shadow priest in PvP since TBC, and therefore been stomped by warriors last 7 years, i wholehearthedly greet any nerfs to warriors' utility. I mean, it is not okay that any class can kill other class without any regard for CC, just by tunneling him while target cant get away. Take that, f**kers.

With regards, QQing shadow priest who feeds on warriors' tears, no matter how small they are.

[joppas]

Don't like it. It's always been a stun why change it after so many years?
Tho it fixes a problem i'v encountered where if i was slowed and charged someone they still managed to get away after i charged. Making piercing howl mandatory for me.

[Deleted]

Warriors also didn't use to have almost 100% uptime. All I see is "whine whine whine" is an insistent form of "the sky is falling" when you now actually have to choose between a Root/Stun/Double Root instead of Stun/Double Stun. In it's current state you have either a Double gap closer or a 12 second gap closer or a 3 second stun.

They still don't have 100% uptime that's just exaggerating and yeah i also only see whine, whine, whine but its from you and the rest.
P.S. warriors is the only class that trades damage talents for cc talents.

"Best of every world" -- No stance dancing, no shield requirement(Shield Reflect/Wall), Permanent -25% damage reduction if needed, pretty ridiculous healing below 35% HP, about 12 ways to stop a person from casting, a bleed that can tick for 50,000 damage, an execute that requires no thought process, the ability to be immune to all forms of CC that has no counter(if talented), the ability to break roots(if talented[again]), 3 different stuns. Shall I continue? The entire point of the stun in the skills original form was to hold a target in place long enough for your character to move through the world to catch them. It's a GAP CLOSER. Not a "Charge stun -- CC chain starts from there". Learn to adapt.

Stance dancing was just macros
shield requirements was clunky and an unnecessary penalty, especially in mop
Def stance still is a trade off, less damage taken for less damage dealt (and yes its very noticeable)
second wind heals for less than last patch fyi
i can only count eight potential ways
a dot that ticks every 3 seconds and affected only by ap unlike the rest that are affected by haste and ticking way more frequent for a total sum of about the same
like lock execute requires any thought process (and hit way way way way more harder even non crit) or dk execute or rogue execute, hell like any execute requires any thought
you mean like clos? or ams? or amz? or the rest of skills that most are not talents and provide full or partial immunity?
you act like only warriors can break roots

[Sylreick]

Didn't they say they wanted to cut back on interrupts, as well as instant casts? This could be to that effect. Still, rather lame.

[Dishonoured]

You know, I can pick literally any class, list every one of their abilities and make them sound OP. Even shadow priests.

"The entire point of the stun in the skills original form was to hold a target in place long enough for your character to move through the world to catch them."

Also on that part, guess what? Target with freedom effect? Can't catch your target.

No one's denying warriors needed nerfs. But this is an utterly stupid way to go about it. Most people wouldn't complain if stormbolt and bladestorm switched places so warriors could only have one or the other. Hell, completely losing access to shockwave as arms would be a better solution than this. I'd go so far as to say not having BOTH shockwave and stormbolt would be better.

I would love to hear how you can make any other class' changes in this expansion sound as "overpowered" as a melee having (almost) 100% uptime and the ability to completely lock down a player for more than enough time than it takes to kill them and consistently got buffed after the TFB model was demoralized and at this point is almost completely irrelevant because Warriors are now worse and it's almost to the point I'd rather be back in WotLK fighting Mancleave or Lumberjackcleave simply because the Warrior had to have team mates to provide everything he currently provides. "Target with freedom effect? Can't catch your target" -- so now instead of breaking other people's roots, you're going to be mad people are breaking yours? Except "literally" you can make the skill go back to how it acted except you require 8 seconds longer to do that.

[Sithalos]

They're going from 100 stuns to 99? The horror.

Right? People bitching about this make me laugh.

[Choptimus]

Yes, because I was totes being literal.

Herpaderp.

Point is, they have plenty of stuns (and hell, CC in general) in their repertoire, so a change to one of them isn't going to end their careers.

What class do you play? Let's remove an iconic ability that has been in the game since 2004 of yours?

Change stormbolt/shockwave not Charge. Charge is not the problem.

[ChampionChains]

Overkill in my opinion. I know casters been QQing about warriors having too many interrupts/reflects, but charge stun been in since Vanilla. I wasn't gonna gripe when they removed the ability to Intercept out of roots, but I think this change is kind of stupid.

Just like the Intercept nerf, all this does is buffs casters which for the most part are doing okay. Just means a lot of warriors gonna be going Warbringer.

[Deleted]

Good change. It nerfs their power of control without nerfing their mobility.

Iconic or not, other classes have had to make a lot bigger sacrifices than that for the sake of balance.