Loot Issues/Loot Discussion

[Deleted]

Hey guys,

I have a situation I'd like the opinions of others on. The problem is regarding bonus loot. To set the scene I'll give you an example. Last night the Thok Heroic Tier Helm dropped. We use a loot council as it is the fairest way we believe that distributes loot. The 2 people rolling on the item were myself, a shadow priest and a warlock. The warlock was 577 total ilvl and had a normal 2/2 Tier helm (561) as well as entirely full heroic tier apart from helm. I was 565 total ilvl with a normal tier helm 1/2 (557) with only a single heroic tier piece. So the warlock already had a better head aswell as being 12 ilvls higher than me in total.

To cut a long story short, they gave the head piece to the warlock. Myself and alot of other people were completely in shock at the decision with 2 reasons being given. The first was that Warlock are OP and Shadow Priest is less overwhelming so the loot was better on him. The second reason (the reason im here to discuss) was that most of his heroic warforged loot was coined not actually won from the loot council. So in essence, id won slightly more items than him from the loot council, and the 580 trinkets, 580 off pieces and offhand and all that jazz didnt count and that he was priority on loot because hed been awarded less.

My question to all you guys is this. Should winning loot on coins have no relevance to your priority on loot from the boss. My argument is that those who are very lucky and coin get substantially more geared than the unlucky people as those unlucky people will passed over on loot because they are awarded an item from the loot council whereas the bonus roller hasn't so he rolls loot AND gets prio on loot.

For example. Player A rolls 9 times and wins 7 items. Player B rolls 9 times and wins 1 item. Player B then gets awarded an item from a boss that player A coined. A week later a BiS item drops and it is given to player A because he's been awarded 0 items from council and player B has been awarded 1. Player A now has 8 items while player B has 2. With this system, the lucky people get incredibly over geared compared to those unlucky and the raid strength is diminished as a result.

Whilst I am annoyed that I lost out on this item, this isnt a thread to complain about that. Its a thread to complain about the reason behind it, and I just wanted to see whether you guys agree with the councils decision, or whether you agree with me that gearing up those already really well geared over those who consistently roll nothing is a good idea.

Edit - Forget to mention the guild wants to Extend on siegecrafter Heroic so we wont get the chance to revisit these bosses.

[Deleted]

We saw these issues as well and have since then been charging points (whatever they are called this week) when people coin stuff. This system works very well because no one will gain any unfair advantages in terms of coining loot. I was a little afraid we would have people who would stop farming charms because it wouldn't give them an advantage, but that hasn't happened at all because people still want their loot.

This requires some trust and extra work from whoever of the council is dealing with the loot. Our council members who are in charge of loot distribution are able to quickly check when someone has something equipped they haven't reported by using some addons. It has happened in the past where someone coined something and didn't mention it, but those cases are usually sorted very quickly and come down to the person in question just forgetting about it.

About this particular case, if the Warlock got the helmet because you already got a higher amount of loot I think it's completely justified he got it instead. It's a team game, and you share everything in a fair way. However I don't know the details of the whole sitation because I'm not a member in your guild and you didn't provide all the information. Did your raid leader ask you to reroll to something for the team for example? Because if that is the case, I would take your side. If you rerolled because you got bored of your previous character I would pick the Warlock's side again. I highly doubt the Warlock coined a full set of heroic gear before you've gotten your 2nd piece.

[Nexii]

I'd probably give it to the Lock too. Keep in mind that would be the sole item he would need from the whole instance, whereas everyone else would get everything else that drops.

[Deleted]

Fair response. Thank you. You answered something I forgot to add. When I raised the issue of coins needed to have some effect on eligibility for loot. The GM's argument was that people wouldn't farm coins any more if it meant they were less likely to win loot. My response to that was that it proves those individuals are selfish and only care about their own loot. I know for a fact when Binding from Immersius heroic I will ALWAYS roll first, because if I get them, someone else who was unlucky with the roll benefits from the item and as a raid we get stronger. I was a monk tank in 10 man but we switched to 25 man and one of the 10 man tanks wanted to stay tank and the only merge we could find already had a tank. So someone had to give in. We agreed that I'd switch to DPS but I required a bit of gear. Because i was so low ilvl I got all the items that nobody wanted or were badly optimised which artificially inflated the amount of loot I got. Demonstrated by the fact im onl 565 ilvl. So loosing the tier head to a warlock already 577 ilvl is incredibly hard to stomache.

[Deleted]

We've never really considered winning bonus loot a hit on someone's elidgibilty to get more loot off bosses. What we DO take into consideration is average ilvls. We try not to gear up a single person more than others just because "their class is OP". We run with 3 casters(mage, lock, spriest) and we've tried to keep us all evened out gear-wise(I even went fire as to not have the same stat priority as the other two to make loot distro easier). In all seriousness bonus loot has saved us from having to make a lot of difficult loot decisions.

[Deleted]

I'd probably give it to the Lock too. Keep in mind that would be the sole item he would need from the whole instance, whereas everyone else would get everything else that drops.

Thanks for the opinion but I'm looking specifically for responses about the coin system, not really a discussion over who should have won the loot.

[Nexii]

If you and the lock have both been there for 100% of progression (or close to) then it might not be fair. I think you have to give more background on how the lock got 12 ilvls ahead, this just doesn't seem normal unless he's the luckiest SOB in the world. All of our raiders are within 5 ilvls and it's only exceeded where people changed main spec, or for fill in raiders.

Generally loot council should be rotating drops and trying to keep ilvl fairly even. If people are too lazy to farm coins they should be replaced, flat out. It takes all of 20 minutes to get 50 charms at this ilvl.

[cFortyfive]

Personally I don't think it's good to have that high ilvl discrepancies between raidmembers who have in reality about the same attendance and quality.
I get that the better geared person had received less loot via the council but I mean you shouldn't just ignore everything a person coined. How ridiculous would it be to give a person the eleventh wf item for instance over the person who only has one although that one was awarded via the council.

[Calzaeth]

I think that winning an item on a coin should count as "Won item in raid."

So the lucky bastards will get good gear but lower prioritization(sp?) whenever more than one raider wants the same item.

Because there will always be unreasonably lucky people. Allowing them to double-dip by saying the didn't get items through loot council is silly, imo.

[Reptar]

The whole point of loot council is to give the gear who will benefit your raid the most. In this case it sounds like they felt that would be the warlock and instead of just telling that to you straight, they added the coining concept to make it seem plausible. I'm all in favor of loot council, so we don't set any parameters (average ilevel, previously won pieces). We give it to will help the raid the most. If you start setting these parameters, you basically are really using DKP or EPGP without the bidding system and that's not the point of a loot council.

Now, let's say that really is their policy. I see no problem with it. They are keeping what they can control in check, and RNG is just not in your favor.

[Annarion]

I'm out of that scene (thankfully), but in my opinion the coin should count towards received loot. The way I see it, you can't use the coin unless your guild kills the boss, just like normal loot. Without said guild killing said boss, your coin is worthless. Just like with regular loot, without the teamwork of your guild, you don't get squat. So you work together to get a chance at loot. I've always been of the attitude that you bring up the low people before you push the high people higher.

Ultimately if they were doing it right, whichever would bring more of a dps increase to the overall raid should have been the person to get it. That being said, comparing the two slots, it's barely a difference, and as someone mentioned, if that's the last item he needs, you still have plenty of opportunity for loot whereas he does not.

TL;DR: Sticky situation, sucks that you didn't get it, maybe week after next if you get Siegecrafter down. Good luck!

[Deleted]

Allowing them to double-dip by saying the didn't get items through loot council is silly, imo.

Yeah, its pants on head retarded. Maybe we just have people that aren't loot whores in my group, but we're all under the same agreement that coining something you need just makes it easier to get everyone else geared up quicker, which means better progression.

[Puri]

Well, that's loot council. They decide who gets what.
Coins should not play any role here, the question is what is your gear when an item gets distributed, how you got it does not matter. He could have freshly joined your guild, and nobody cares how he got the gear he has now.

A decision made will always lead to a discussion, because the item can only be given to one person.

So that's also happening in your case. But as you have stated, the headpiece is pretty much the only thing the WL is missing. So that means that if that piece will not drop again for weeks he almost has no chance to gear up. You still need loot from several bosses, so there are many ways you can improve your gear besides that headpiece.

[Nexii]

Yeah, its pants on head retarded. Maybe we just have people that aren't loot whores in my group, but we're all under the same agreement that coining something you need just makes it easier to get everyone else geared up quicker, which means better progression.

Agree we consider coined drops the same as LC. People tend to coin for big upgrades (weapons/trinkets/tier in that order) regardless. Luck shouldn't be a factor - i.e. "I got lucky with coins so I get as many LC drops". The whole point of LC is to mitigate that luck, balancing out your raids ilvl and generally giving it to the person that gets the biggest increase. Of course if you bring in someone undergeared, and you have those very geared, you might not give the lesser geared person contested drops, because they already get a lot other things by default. Generally in those cases its an alt, or main switch, or new recruit anyways that hasn't put as much in to earn it.

[Deleted]

I think that winning an item on a coin should count as "Won item in raid."

So the lucky bastards will get good gear but lower prioritization(sp?) whenever more than one raider wants the same item.

Because there will always be unreasonably lucky people. Allowing them to double-dip by saying the didn't get items through loot council is silly, imo.

This is a precisely what I was hoping to read, as I share this opinion. I was starting to question the way I felt about coins but it seems the majority of you agree that coining an item should count as item won in raid as it doesnt allow you to double dip like you said. Ofc it sucks to be that person thats passed over when an item you want drops but if your coining WF after WF then its only fair.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm out of that scene (thankfully), but in my opinion the coin should count towards received loot. The way I see it, you can't use the coin unless your guild kills the boss, just like normal loot. Without said guild killing said boss, your coin is worthless. Just like with regular loot, without the teamwork of your guild, you don't get squat. So you work together to get a chance at loot. I've always been of the attitude that you bring up the low people before you push the high people higher.

Very well put, I had the same thought. That a coin isnt a god given right to get an item. The coin is useless without the guild. The guild provides you with the chance to use the coin so ofc the coin should count towards loot given on a boss.

[Nivrax]

If you charge people for coined items, what if person coin an item that they would never needed whet it would drop, but at same time, could be very slight upgrade to them?
Think of having normal ToT trinket and coining Crystal of Rage (aoe trinket) when aiming for ring/belt. Crystal is complete shitty trinket, good on one fight, terrible on 13 others, and you would never want to need on it. Yet proc itself may just make it slightly be better than 40 ilvl lower trinket from ToT. So you can either wear it, very slightly increasing raid dps, but costing you chance for decent trinket (also your coin and your unlucky-roll stack) and overall having you for long time stuck with sucky trinket. Or you could vendor it (since it's only minor upgrade), yet retaining ability to actually win something non shitty, but actually hurting your guild.

Overall I don't think coined items should ever be counted when it comes to 'who has more loot'. It makes coining itself pointless for your personal gain and even encourage not using them (unless boss only drop bis). Instead, when person wins item from coin, don't think it as 'lucky bitch have more gear than me' but 'when that thing drops, there will be less competition = more chance to get it for me'. Like for me, if both of our mages didn't coin Immerseus trinket on first kill, I would still prolly didn't have it.

If you are in loot council and are trying to decide who gets item, you should not look at 'most overall ilvl' and 'gear gotten from coin + handed out' but 'current piece ilvl + gear gotten from hand outs'. In this case, both you and lock got same ilvl upgrade (lacking upgrade is usually your own fault since it's so cheap... though I could see difference in your case since you were switching classes and not for yourself but raid group). This means, whoever got less loot handed out, gets the piece. If you had really undergeared head (like ToT or lfr), then you gaining more out of it would 'overrule' fact lock have less item from hand outs.

TL;DR Coins shouldn't be counted, it's personal gain with slight raid gain behind it. Loot council should base decision on how big upgrade a piece is for person, and only in case of ties give it to person who had less loot given out.

[Deja Thoris]

The fact that a person who is 577 would even consider rolling against someone 12 item levels lower is a strong indication that there are some dicks in your raid. I know that wasn't the question but a system is only as good as the people that involved and you have some mingers.

Edit: Assuming equal participation etc

[Kalmah]

Loot council is about optimizing loot distribution for progression.

We don't really look at where people got their loot from when deciding who gets an item, just what will benefit the raid the most for future progression. That said, at this point we're just rolling for items when people already have similar gear because when the whole raid is at 575 average item level, it just doesn't make any difference. Progression is just limited by time and execution at this point.

Also

The warlock was 577 total ilvl and had a normal 2/2 Tier helm (561) as well as entirely full heroic tier apart from helm. I was 565 total ilvl with a normal tier helm 1/2 (557) with only a single heroic tier piece. So the warlock already had a better head aswell as being 12 ilvls higher than me in total.

You both had the same head. That your wasn't also 2/2 is only your fault.

The fact that a person who is 577 would even consider rolling against someone 12 item levels lower is a strong indication that there are some dicks in your raid. I know that wasn't the question but a system is only as good as the people that involved and you have some mingers.

Edit: Assuming equal participation etc

Considering the gear difference, the warlock has been in that raid for a long time and OP recently rerolled. I'm not a fan of passing loot for undergeared newcomers.

[Elios]

Probably raid performance was the problem and they didnt want to tell you...

And i would also give it to the lock...

[Nexii]

Considering the gear difference, the warlock has been in that raid for a long time and OP recently rerolled. I'm not a fan of passing loot for undergeared newcomers.

Yea I'm not buying a 12 ilvl difference through luck alone either. That's like a whole set of heroic gear difference (i.e. 16 pieces vs the mentioned ~7) There's more going on here