LFR: What the frak just happened?

[Deleted]

*Obviously I understand this is nothing like proper raiding, get a guild, experience it properly etc*

You just explained why it's so easy... Go do "real" raids?

[Surfd]

I have a tank of water. It leaks, but I top it up every so often. After about ten years it's half full (I'm lazy) and I've added enough water to fill it up over twelve times. That's WoW. Good retention?

That depends entirely on what the standard rate of retention for that type of tank of water is.

You are looking at the wrong statistic. How often you have to top the tank up is irrelivant. The important bit is how long the water stays in the tank.

Every tank leaks. This is an irrefutable fact about the nature of the product. It will never hold every drop of water it catches forever. But if the WoW tank keeps the average drop around for 4 years or longer, while other smaller tanks only hold the drop for 2 years, which one has better retention then.

Also, how many of those drops have left, only to return again later because the newest shiny tank didnt hold their interest as long as they thought it would?

WoW's retention may look bad because you are only looking at the VOLUME of water that has passed through it. You are not really takeing into account the size of the tank and the co-responding size of the leak that results due to the much more massive tank.

Unless we have statistics on how long the average individual has played WoW before they leave (or played, left, returned, left, returned etc), trying to make retention comparisons to other games is going to be pointless.

[Iskariott]

i wonder if at all someone is enjoying this. even the most casual friends of mine tell me: i want to raid normal, it is not enough for me to do lfr or flex

[Surfd]

i wonder if at all someone is enjoying this. even the most casual friends of mine tell me: i want to raid normal, it is not enough for me to do lfr or flex

I enjoy it for precicely the reason it exists: Because after I finish running my main 2 characters through the heroic / normal / flex stuff I want to do with them, I cant be arsed trying to find yet more normal / flex groups to run my other 4 semi active lvl 90 alts through to kill time / do the legendary cloak quest / get neat gear for them, so I queue them for LFR raids on slow days.

[Winterstrife]

Because it's LFR... if the LFR Paladin set wasn't one of the better looking color scheme, I would have never bother Q-ing for LFR.

[miffy23]

I know at least 2 people who are actively sub who don't any type of raiding, lfr and pvp. They collect mounts, pets and like to mess around.

I know they exist, I pointed them out in my other threads. But among the ACTIVE subscriber base (that is to say, everyone not cancelling their subs after a month or two, which is the majority as statistics show), people that actually want to raid or pvp are the vast majority. The people that are content doing these other activities don't really figure into this discussion because obviously - they are happy.

However, I don't know many people happy with LFR. I know you people exist, but you are by far the minority. Most people doing LFR do it because they feel they have no alternative. Either they think they need LFR to gear up for higher difficulties, or they think they're not good enough, or they can't find a guild that will take them to raid x.

These are all issues that can be adressed with ingame mechanics. Changing the gear color and possibly the relative ilvl of LFR (or similar content) drops would make the gear feel less mandatory for raiders (as it isn't, at all).

In my opinion, I would like an alternative to LFR: something that is NOT the same as the current raid content, thereby making both it and the actual raids more appealing in terms of "seeing it". Something that is tailormade to "just do it", as some say, but that doesn't teach you that this is how you experience raids. In short, draw a clear line between "casual content" and "raids". The fact this doesn't exist is why the raiding community is declining, I believe.

[Theendgamelv3]

I know they exist, I pointed them out in my other threads. But among the ACTIVE subscriber base (that is to say, everyone not cancelling their subs after a month or two, which is the majority as statistics show), people that actually want to raid or pvp are the vast majority. The people that are content doing these other activities don't really figure into this discussion because obviously - they are happy.

However, I don't know many people happy with LFR. I know you people exist, but you are by far the minority. Most people doing LFR do it because they feel they have no alternative. Either they think they need LFR to gear up for higher difficulties, or they think they're not good enough, or they can't find a guild that will take them to raid x.

These are all issues that can be adressed with ingame mechanics. Changing the gear color and possibly the relative ilvl of LFR (or similar content) drops would make the gear feel less mandatory for raiders (as it isn't, at all).

In my opinion, I would like an alternative to LFR: something that is NOT the same as the current raid content, thereby making both it and the actual raids more appealing in terms of "seeing it". Something that is tailormade to "just do it", as some say, but that doesn't teach you that this is how you experience raids. In short, draw a clear line between "casual content" and "raids". The fact this doesn't exist is why the raiding community is declining, I believe.

Until you know EVERY single player in the game you can't claim that you know a minority hates or loves LFR. Your guild, your friends, this forum, the forums at Blizzard, are a TINY fraction of what makes up WoW subs. Now I agree a lot of people don't like LFR, is it a vast majority, I don't know because I don't know all the people in WoW. Since I can't find how big the WoW forums are, I will have to go with the forum population here and what I think how big your guild and friends list are. So I rounded up that this forum has 400k and I think you said your guild is big so lets go way big and say it is 1k (guild plus friends). So that gives us 401k people. So if EVERYONE on MMO champion plus your guild and friends hate LFR, that makes up 5.1% of WoW's total population. So you can't EVEN claim you know that that a vast minority hates LFR, nor can I claim a vast majority loves it. I just know a lot of people hate it and quite a few people like it. I think it is more 60/40, 50/50 and that is based on these forums alone, forums in which a lot of people take WoW a bit more seriously than your average WoW player. Not being able to find a guild, feeling the need to do it or feeling they aren't good enough doesn't mean they hate LFR. I like LFR mode itself. I know you didn't outright say it, but it feels implied. When LFR goes smoothly it is good and fun for me. I don't even mind the arguing. The big thing I don't like is the waiting when some people leave. LFR in WOD is gonna be good cause it will scale and the waiting is minimized.

First you say you don't want LFR to go away now you say you want a alternative. That is basically saying you want LFR to go away. What is the difference in "we're removing LFR, but we're adding something neat to replace it" and "we're changing LFR to have different content"? There isn't that much difference. How about those who can't commit to a set time and days to raid? Oh wait flex right. Here is a quote from someone who I asked on a different thread on why Flex is something they can't do much of

It may not be the same result each time, but.... once there were no tanks on hand. So I became a tank. Then no healers. Then I only had the twilight hours to work with. I've been able to manage a couple wings of SoO but all in all, the time spent assembling a group I can just do lfr faster. No joke. Even with a 30 minute queue, it's been faster.

As you can see LFR works for him and players like him. I like the raiding system as it is. You have LFR for people who want to do it and it isn't forced. You have flex for people who don't like LFR and want something a tad harder (I have read many people on this forum not even doing LFR anymore and there are more wipes in LFR in my experience due to more skilled players not doing LFR). Then you have the harder modes who want a bigger challenge if they want. That is the thing, "if they want" there is choice in this current system. Take away or change LFR, some people will quit WoW, do something else in WoW or will move to Flex and be happy there. I don't believe that many will go past Flex/Normal. The people who mainly do LFR don't have the drive to do harder stuff. What you want won't magically make more people go into harder raids cause those people were too lazy to begin with. Even if they wanted to, would you take them, no you want skilled players, not "LFR Heroes". You might say "no, I'll take them" do you have time to teach them how to play their class efficiently?

Also what is actual raiding? To me raids are being in a big group and taking down bosses. Just because it is baby's first raid mode to me doesn't make it a raid. That is like saying I didn't actually beat a game because I beat it on easy. If you go with a response I think you will go with, I can EASILY show how LFR is "actual" raiding and Flex isn't. In the end, all this might be moot depending on what they do with LFR in WOD as they are talking about tourist mode. In the end, if you want a increase of players doing harder raid modes, make Heroic and Mythic raids different from LFR and Flex and the Heroic and Mythic raids rewards so great that people would really really really want them.

[kamuimac]

i wonder if at all someone is enjoying this. even the most casual friends of mine tell me: i want to raid normal, it is not enough for me to do lfr or flex

i can tell only for myself - i raid hc on main , i raid hc on alt when i have time to log other alts and it very rare i love lfr cause of how i dont have to pay attention to shit and can just enjoy guild ts without payign to much attention to what i do in lfr - cause beside this there is nothing to do on max lv which is ....booooring -_-

[Marxman]

The only problem I have with LFR these days is that it's mandatory. There really isn't another viable option to gear up for Flex/Normal than LFR. If there was an alternative, say if Timeless 535 gear didn't take 100 years to grind or if 5mans were competitive like in Cata, I'd have no problem with it.

Then there's the community and the AFKers and idiots, but I've just grown to accept that.

[Guyviroth]

More LFR hate... Oh what a shock.

Raiding is, by definition and in its simplest form, getting a huge group together, downing a boss, getting loot, and moving on.

And that is what LFR is: raiding in its simplest form.

If you want better raiding or whatever, go run flex or normal difficulty if you don't like LFR. No one is forcing you to do it.

[miffy23]

Until you know EVERY single player in the game you can't claim that you know a minority hates or loves LFR. Your guild, your friends, this forum, the forums at Blizzard, are a TINY fraction of what makes up WoW subs. Now I agree a lot of people don't like LFR, is it a vast majority, I don't know because I don't know all the people in WoW. Since I can't find how big the WoW forums are, I will have to go with the forum population here and what I think how big your guild and friends list are. So I rounded up that this forum has 400k and I think you said your guild is big so lets go way big and say it is 1k (guild plus friends). So that gives us 401k people. So if EVERYONE on MMO champion plus your guild and friends hate LFR, that makes up 5.1% of WoW's total population. So you can't EVEN claim you know that that a vast minority hates LFR, nor can I claim a vast majority loves it. I just know a lot of people hate it and quite a few people like it. I think it is more 60/40, 50/50 and that is based on these forums alone, forums in which a lot of people take WoW a bit more seriously than your average WoW player. Not being able to find a guild, feeling the need to do it or feeling they aren't good enough doesn't mean they hate LFR. I like LFR mode itself. I know you didn't outright say it, but it feels implied. When LFR goes smoothly it is good and fun for me. I don't even mind the arguing. The big thing I don't like is the waiting when some people leave. LFR in WOD is gonna be good cause it will scale and the waiting is minimized.

First you say you don't want LFR to go away now you say you want a alternative. That is basically saying you want LFR to go away. What is the difference in "we're removing LFR, but we're adding something neat to replace it" and "we're changing LFR to have different content"? There isn't that much difference. How about those who can't commit to a set time and days to raid? Oh wait flex right. Here is a quote from someone who I asked on a different thread on why Flex is something they can't do much of



As you can see LFR works for him and players like him. I like the raiding system as it is. You have LFR for people who want to do it and it isn't forced. You have flex for people who don't like LFR and want something a tad harder (I have read many people on this forum not even doing LFR anymore and there are more wipes in LFR in my experience due to more skilled players not doing LFR). Then you have the harder modes who want a bigger challenge if they want. That is the thing, "if they want" there is choice in this current system. Take away or change LFR, some people will quit WoW, do something else in WoW or will move to Flex and be happy there. I don't believe that many will go past Flex/Normal. The people who mainly do LFR don't have the drive to do harder stuff. What you want won't magically make more people go into harder raids cause those people were too lazy to begin with. Even if they wanted to, would you take them, no you want skilled players, not "LFR Heroes". You might say "no, I'll take them" do you have time to teach them how to play their class efficiently?

Also what is actual raiding? To me raids are being in a big group and taking down bosses. Just because it is baby's first raid mode to me doesn't make it a raid. That is like saying I didn't actually beat a game because I beat it on easy. If you go with a response I think you will go with, I can EASILY show how LFR is "actual" raiding and Flex isn't. In the end, all this might be moot depending on what they do with LFR in WOD as they are talking about tourist mode. In the end, if you want a increase of players doing harder raid modes, make Heroic and Mythic raids different from LFR and Flex and the Heroic and Mythic raids rewards so great that people would really really really want them.

You seem to not have read my previous posts in this thread as to WHY I want LFR to change. It's not because I personally don't enjoy it. It's because I believe it is affecting new player's ability and motivation to engage in any raiding beyond LFR.

Again, there is nothing wrong with content at the difficulty and accessibility level of LFR. I just don't believe it should be the same lore and loot content as higher difficulties, because it naturally detracts from the motivation to explore these.

Obviously, there are people that enjoy LFR. And i'm not claiming to know everyone's opinion. I am basing my opinion on over 2 years of dealing with people in LFR, and hearing opinions of it from people ingame. The people that actually have a positive opinion are a tiny minority. The overwhelming majority of LFRs are people bitching at each other and being unhappy. You have to base your opinion on something, and I'm basing it on clear and obvious trends I see as a very active player.

And yes, if the content of normal/heroic weren't actually available as LFR, many more players would be interested in engaging in it. That doesn't mean all of them would be able to, but there is a base level of "what, i should engage in a schedule, rules and spend all this time on my character just to do the SAME raid again" that currently serves as a big deterrence.

Again I ask: show me the player you know personally that has started playing in MoP and is at the very least clearing normal modes, at best raiding heroic. I have yet to see a single one, and I only know of one raider in my guild that started in Cata. I'm seriously asking if anyone knows someone like this. Granted, a part of the reason for this is that the last two expansions largely failed to attract many new players. However, I see it as a big indication of what kind of players are actually being attracted, and what the game is teaching new players to want and do ingame.

[Theendgamelv3]

You seem to not have read my previous posts in this thread as to WHY I want LFR to change. It's not because I personally don't enjoy it. It's because I believe it is affecting new player's ability and motivation to engage in any raiding beyond LFR.

Again, there is nothing wrong with content at the difficulty and accessibility level of LFR. I just don't believe it should be the same lore and loot content as higher difficulties, because it naturally detracts from the motivation to explore these.

Obviously, there are people that enjoy LFR. And i'm not claiming to know everyone's opinion. I am basing my opinion on over 2 years of dealing with people in LFR, and hearing opinions of it from people ingame. The people that actually have a positive opinion are a tiny minority. The overwhelming majority of LFRs are people bitching at each other and being unhappy. You have to base your opinion on something, and I'm basing it on clear and obvious trends I see as a very active player.

And yes, if the content of normal/heroic weren't actually available as LFR, many more players would be interested in engaging in it. That doesn't mean all of them would be able to, but there is a base level of "what, i should engage in a schedule, rules and spend all this time on my character just to do the SAME raid again" that currently serves as a big deterrence.

Again I ask: show me the player you know personally that has started playing in MoP and is at the very least clearing normal modes, at best raiding heroic. I have yet to see a single one, and I only know of one raider in my guild that started in Cata. I'm seriously asking if anyone knows someone like this. Granted, a part of the reason for this is that the last two expansions largely failed to attract many new players. However, I see it as a big indication of what kind of players are actually being attracted, and what the game is teaching new players to want and do ingame.

No I know why you want it to change. I just believe what you want won't magically make more players come to harder difficulties. Again I say if alot of those people are too lazy to go past LFR, taking away LFR isn't gonna make them go "Gotta do harder stuff".

You're right, you're claiming to know a LARGE majority of peoples' opinion and 5% last time I check is a VERY small minority. As you can see I see something different when I see a 50/50 60/40 and I clearly state that is going by this forum alone. Your knowledge of the playerbase again is at best (even this is a stretch) is 5-7%. So you can't again claim a large minority or a large majority. There is a reason why I say "I believe a lot" or "I believe quite a few" because I will never state something as fact OR assume I know about a large portion of the playerbase. Until you can see trends that are from a VERY large amount players, your argument doesn't hold water in the overall population of WoW, it is only the section you yourself interactive with on a daily basis and that is a VERY small portion of the community.

Where is your proof? Blizzard has always stated that raiding is done by the minority. Do you have numbers to support your claim? I am going by what Blizzard says and that VERY few people saw Naxx in Vanilla. So either not a ton of people raided due to various reasons OR a lot of people raided and they sucked REALLY bad or had REALLY bad RNG. I believe it is a mix of not a lot of people raided and many who did weren't very good.

You won't get your answer because you're asking a forum that represents a tiny portion of the game. A fraction infact since not everyone plays WoW on MMO champion, and all those who do play don't look at this thread and the person has to care enough to even answer and on top of that, they could be lying. Do we know how many of the current population started in Cata? I don't think so, Blizzard might, but I don't know if they ever released a number. Hell for all we know, 7.8 million people who play WoW right now, there could be 0 people who started in MoP and the population is all people who started from Cata and earlier. Now I don't obviously believe this, I am just saying, but we don't have numbers, Blizzard does.

[miffy23]

No I know why you want it to change. I just believe what you want won't magically make more players come to harder difficulties. Again I say if alot of those people are too lazy to go past LFR, taking away LFR isn't gonna make them go "Gotta do harder stuff".

You're right, you're claiming to know a LARGE majority of peoples' opinion and 5% last time I check is a VERY small minority. As you can see I see something different when I see a 50/50 60/40 and I clearly state that is going by this forum alone. Your knowledge of the playerbase again is at best (even this is a stretch) is 5-7%. So you can't again claim a large minority or a large majority. There is a reason why I say "I believe a lot" or "I believe quite a few" because I will never state something as fact OR assume I know about a large portion of the playerbase. Until you can see trends that are from a VERY large amount players, your argument doesn't hold water in the overall population of WoW, it is only the section you yourself interactive with on a daily basis and that is a VERY small portion of the community.

Where is your proof? Blizzard has always stated that raiding is done by the minority. Do you have numbers to support your claim? I am going by what Blizzard says and that VERY few people saw Naxx in Vanilla. So either not a ton of people raided due to various reasons OR a lot of people raided and they sucked REALLY bad or had REALLY bad RNG. I believe it is a mix of not a lot of people raided and many who did weren't very good.

You won't get your answer because you're asking a forum that represents a tiny portion of the game. A fraction infact since not everyone plays WoW on MMO champion, and all those who do play don't look at this thread and the person has to care enough to even answer and on top of that, they could be lying. Do we know how many of the current population started in Cata? I don't think so, Blizzard might, but I don't know if they ever released a number. Hell for all we know, 7.8 million people who play WoW right now, there could be 0 people who started in MoP and the population is all people who started from Cata and earlier. Now I don't obviously believe this, I am just saying, but we don't have numbers, Blizzard does.

Like I said, without getting these numbers from Blizzard, I must base my opinion on trends I see. I've been very active throughout all LFR tiers, on many characters, and I've seen many "samples" so-to-speak. Obviously this is my perspective and opinion.

However, you seem to be of the opinion that it's all ok the way it is, because Blizzard has the numbers and somehow it's all ok because they said so. Recent developments contradict this directly. Renaming LFR, GC even openly stating "Flex is what LFR should have been", and if that's not enough - the fact that they never ever release these numbers (like for example, how many players that started with MoP actually even entered normal difficulty) is the biggest indication that they are most likely horrible.

Furthermore, Blizzard has a long history of assuming to know what the players want better than they themselves do - which has been devastatingly been proven wrong on many occasions, but they have yet to change their stance. Now don't get me wrong, I love their franchises, I love WoW and generally I think everything is moving in the right direction, and I am content as a player. I'm merely talking about an aspect of LFR content that I think is not being properly adressed, and is in my opinion the only reason LFR really needs to be examined more closely, and probably needs to be completely redesigned if higher difficulties are to "survive". I might be completely wrong, and I'll be perfectly happy if that's the case. It's worth looking at in case I'm not.