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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranaas View Post
    dunno why ppl want to have CC in 5man dungeons while we (nearly) never use them in boss encounters , even the hardest ones.

    I agree they need to improve 5-man experience. but it should be done by giving the bosses more HP , giving them more 1-shot abilities (non-personal) so they could be used as a training tier towards lfr/flex
    I disagree.

    5-mans should be made into their own form of endgame. They should not be considered "training grounds" for raiding - if anything raiding needs to be de-emphasized, especially in reference to 5-man content.

    1-shot abilities are not fun - that was the reasoning behind the stamina increase in TBC and Wrath, to reduce the likelihood of being 1-shot. What we ended up with is health pools that are so big now that they just seem... weird. Oh sure, it's just a number but something is lost between having 4k health and 800k health. Especially with percentage-based self-healing in a game that wants to continue to claim to support PvP/world PvP.

  2. #102
    Any time that valor capping is optimal for raiders even when clearing the current raid content, the trivial content that awards valor is going to have people doing it that vastly outgear it. Either the intro content needs to be more difficult and raid content scale less (raid gear not be as much better as now) or trivial content shouldn't be required for valor or people will have to do trivial content as a chore for valor and not like it because it is so trivial.

    Scenarios, heroic scenarios, and challenge modes don't award trash drops. Dungeons used to be a non-trivial source of enchanting materials and cloth. It just feels bad to run content that doesn't have any rewards other than valor.

    A group of us started doing challenge modes for the 3 per week complete for 1500g for raiding repairs. We are 5/9 gold doing one each week. It just feels wrong to go through and stomp the place up with a "go, go, go" mentality and not get anything physical out of it. Mobs have loot and gold. I want them. Competing for "realm best time" or "twinking challenge modes" with just the right classes and the gear with the most gem slots really doesn't interest us. (We also don't twink low level pvp.) Challenge mode gold is "memorize this optimized pull strategy and bring your invisibility potion". Clear the trash right (and have enough stuns) and you get gold.

  3. #103
    Herald of the Titans Duridi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post
    5-mans should be made into their own form of endgame. They should not be considered "training grounds" for raiding - if anything raiding needs to be de-emphasized, especially in reference to 5-man content.
    I agree with this comment. I want 5 mans to be my endgame, not a steppingstone into raiding. I am done with raiding. I want enjoyable 5 mans with my own premade group.

    It's been suggested having another type of challenging 5 man, which isn't based on a timer, and which could drop LFR quality gear. Blizzard recently pointed out that they understand the need for challenging 5 man content which isn't tied to a timer. We can hope they've finally understood, though I have my doubts. We have 4 modes of raiding now, 5 mans should get equal treatment. Normal mode(which should continue as the pointgrinding LFD version we know as heroics today), heroic mode(challenging 5 mans meant for premade groups, just as heroic scenarios are premade only. Dropping LFR equalent gear), and Challenge modes, just as they are today. Heroic modes should not be any easier than Challenge mode, but exclude the timed element. It should also not scale down gear, as the heroic path should give the feeling of character progression.

    That's what I want anyways. Could go into further details, but these are the basics. I want 5 man content to following it's own route, and to be it's own type of endgame.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    This game isn't BC anymore and never will be again.
    Be careful what you say. We are going back to "Outland" for a reason

  5. #105
    I disagree with the "current raiding is fine" statement. I just came back to WoW after skipping cata/mop and hit 90 4 days ago.

    I was completely able to catch up to current tier in 3 days, and completely finish both the LFR and the Flex versions of SoO. I will be doing 25 man tonight (couldn't last week because of reset).

    The fact that a brand new player can go into the fights with 0 experience just after hitting 90 and be relevant as a key role (I 2 healed flex SoO) implies to me that the raiding in WoW now has taken a drastic turn for the easy. To me the raiding is the same way as the 5 mans, faceroll. (note I have not done heroics yet so I can't attest to them)

    I'm looking forward to see the 20 man raiding coming up in WoD though. Hopefully they step up their game. I've still yet to hear or see of a good raid done by blizzard since Ulduar.

  6. #106
    Honestly, if they just upped the difficulty of 5 mans overall, I think people would rise to the occasion eventually. It would be painful at the start, like Cata, but then people would learn. There is really no preparation for raids anymore. Just LFR, which is only a help if you're REALLY attentive.

    Questing at max level isn't thaat bad, but low level quests are just way too easy right now.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by FellishBeast View Post
    Honestly, if they just upped the difficulty of 5 mans overall, I think people would rise to the occasion eventually. It would be painful at the start, like Cata, but then people would learn.
    It didn't work once, what makes you think it will work again. Last thing WoW needs is another early Cata-like subs debacle.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by FellishBeast View Post
    Honestly, if they just upped the difficulty of 5 mans overall, I think people would rise to the occasion eventually. It would be painful at the start, like Cata, but then people would learn. There is really no preparation for raids anymore. Just LFR, which is only a help if you're REALLY attentive.

    Questing at max level isn't thaat bad, but low level quests are just way too easy right now.
    No, they would not. Blizzard has even confirmed as much.

    For me, if WoD heroics were carbon copies of Cata heroics - I simply wouldn't waste my money on the expansion. I had friends leave over Cata heroics and I mostly play WoW for my friends.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by FellishBeast View Post
    Honestly, if they just upped the difficulty of 5 mans overall, I think people would rise to the occasion eventually. It would be painful at the start, like Cata, but then people would learn. There is really no preparation for raids anymore. Just LFR, which is only a help if you're REALLY attentive.
    Devs have noted that evidence points to the contrary. For every guy who rises to the occasion, ten said "fuck it" and quit (numbers asspulled for rhetoric's sake). That's why they're making the hard dungeons optional in WoD and will almost definitely not open them to random-queue matchmade pugs. Dungeon Finder queues will instead send you to level 100 Normal, which are being tuned like MoP Heroics (pre-LFR blue gear, easy difficulty, some footwork and spatial awareness required).

    Mark my words (and save this post, if you'd like, for reference after WoD launch), Heroics at level 100 will require a premade group and offer gear competitive with LFR to allow players that raid Normal+ and dislike LFR to hit Heroics as an alternative. This allows them to make Heroics harder--Lore cited pre-nerf Vortex Pinnacle as what to expect, difficulty-wise, and I'd argue pre-nerf VP was probably about as tough as a smooth MoP LFR run, if not tougher pound for pound given the smaller group size and thus tougher requirements of everyone in the group. It won't be, like, H Slabs or H Sethekk hard, not unless they up their ante in beta, but it'll be a good middle ground between MoP-easy Normal and normalized-for-challenge CMs.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that, at Blizzcon, they talked about upping the difficulty and rewards on Heroic every time a new dungeon tier was released, so you'd have a tiered Normal catchup to plunge into Heroic in, again, as an alternative to LFR catchups for those players that dislike LFR.

    Questing at max level isn't thaat bad, but low level quests are just way too easy right now.
    Questing is designed to be easy because it's the most common denominator--which means it needs to be tuned for the lowest common denominator so everyone will have something to do to occupy them in the game. And don't expect 6.0 questing to be hard, either. At Blizzcon, the devs flat-out called the leveling experience 'a fun romp through Draenor,' and to be frank, the only real danger will come from being confined to ground mounts until 6.1, in that you risk running into an event designed for a group and aggro something big and nasty.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabiddog View Post
    If you want CC and/or harder dungeons go do Challenge modes , expecting a randomly put together group to apply team work will not work in most groups. Also calling MoP heroics when you are doing them after 2-3 tiers of gear is not the way to assess the difficulty , they were of reasonable difficulty when we were first gearing when MoP came out , as we get more gear its understandable that those dungeons will be faceroll and that is why there is Challenge Modes.
    Why should the options be:

    1. Faceroll 5 mans

    OR

    2. Speed run zergfests for transmog gear

    Some people enjoy difficulty that isn't just "DO THIS AS FAST AS YOU HUMANLY CAN, SKIPPING AS MUCH TRASH AS POSSIBLE AND USING INVISIBILITY POTS".

    Blues have admitted themselves that there's a market for BC/Cata 5 man difficulty so hopefully it'll return in some form soon enough

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Why should the options be:

    1. Faceroll 5 mans

    OR

    2. Speed run zergfests for transmog gear

    Some people enjoy difficulty that isn't just "DO THIS AS FAST AS YOU HUMANLY CAN, SKIPPING AS MUCH TRASH AS POSSIBLE AND USING INVISIBILITY POTS".

    Blues have admitted themselves that there's a market for BC/Cata 5 man difficulty so hopefully it'll return in some form soon enough
    WoD challenge modes will be BC/cata diffulty. they wont be timed anymore. as for rewards idk.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
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    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post25856782
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  12. #112
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    WoD challenge modes will be BC/cata diffulty. they wont be timed anymore. as for rewards idk.
    Source:? I'd hope so. I did it but the whole timed thing turns me off and makes me not even care to sell it since your investment could become much larger if things go wrong... repeatedly.... ugh.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Source:? I'd hope so. I did it but the whole timed thing turns me off and makes me not even care to sell it since your investment could become much larger if things go wrong... repeatedly.... ugh.
    That is what makes challenge modes good. If wipes are allowed and you can keep chugging on, you can just limp your way through it. There shouldn't be any special reward for your ability to die repeatedly...

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Questing is designed to be easy because it's the most common denominator--which means it needs to be tuned for the lowest common denominator so everyone will have something to do to occupy them in the game. And don't expect 6.0 questing to be hard, either. At Blizzcon, the devs flat-out called the leveling experience 'a fun romp through Draenor,' and to be frank, the only real danger will come from being confined to ground mounts until 6.1, in that you risk running into an event designed for a group and aggro something big and nasty.
    How come EVERYTHING is designed for the lowest common denominator now? Not a single thing truly has skill gating at this point, every piece of content is accessible to the lowest grade of player, the only things restricted are rewards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    WoD challenge modes will be BC/cata diffulty. they wont be timed anymore. as for rewards idk.
    Source? I would love this to no end, being able to actually have to follow mechanics rather than watching a clock tick and chain stunning

  15. #115
    Heroic dungeons should be interesting, meaning they should require your to use your abilities. There are things like polymorph, charge, stun, silence, mind control etc for a reason. All classes have a couple of these, so group balance should always be fine. Imo the lvl 100 dungeons should not be that hard, yet still require the odd silence/cc. Once you get to heroic, things should be more challenging and require of the group that they know what is going on. Nowadays I don't really have a clue what is going on, because we just faceroll through the dungeon. It may be fast and we get our items, but it's boring. A reward should feel rewarding and not something we get without any effort whatsoever.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    That is what makes challenge modes good. If wipes are allowed and you can keep chugging on, you can just limp your way through it. There shouldn't be any special reward for your ability to die repeatedly...
    Agreed, maybe the award tied to not making certain mistakes and whatnot? Or just very brutal bosses that only give gold if you never wipe.

  17. #117
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    That is what makes challenge modes good. If wipes are allowed and you can keep chugging on, you can just limp your way through it. There shouldn't be any special reward for your ability to die repeatedly...
    Uhhhhhh I ment actually hard bosses and content not DURRP AOE AND INVIS POT.

    CMS are a joke and need to be like shadowlabs and Arcatraz as a base but tighter tuned.

    I like the idea of gold being tied to immortal for the dungeon instead of time challenge and invis pot to victory.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2014-02-19 at 09:05 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Uhhhhhh I ment actually hard bosses and content not DURRP AOE AND INVIS POT.

    CMS are a joke and need to be like shadowlabs and Arcatraz as a base but tighter tuned.

    I like the idea of gold being tied to immortal for the dungeon instead of time challenge and invis pot to victory.
    Like Brawlers Guild bosses before we could outgear them

    Group wide hexos fight. And he heals to full each time somebody dies.

    Still has an enrage

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Source:? I'd hope so. I did it but the whole timed thing turns me off and makes me not even care to sell it since your investment could become much larger if things go wrong... repeatedly.... ugh.
    there was something a week or 2 ago. blizzard admitted that the timed runs were a bad idea, people wanted challenge not timed speed. so they plan is to remove the timer and up the challenge of challenge modes.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Zanjin/simple horde main
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...yhearts/simple alliance main
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...2#post25856782
    Coming soon Expansion ideas: Age of N'zoth, Assault on Agrus, and Age of Extinction(aka the true end time)

  20. #120
    i believe its weighed accordingly considering the rewards from both and the different type of consumers you are trying to draw into the game.
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