Philosophy behind Metal Gear; Outer Heaven were the real heroes...

[Nakura Chambers]

Warning, this contains spoilers. I posted this in general off-topic, because this is more of a discussion about the philosophy behind the series

The Metal Gear games are my favorite form of anti-war art, as they have a great deal of depth to them. They replace the black-and-white morality that the media is rife with, and they place players in a situation where they end up killing the real heroes of the franchise. While arguments can be made for the morality of most antagonists in the series, I shall focus on Outer Heaven. By all means, feel free to point out other examples in the series, as there are plenty of them.

In the first Metal Gear game, the United States tries to topple the government of Outer Heaven and subvert their nuclear ambitions. While carrying out his mission, however, it quickly becomes apparent that the soldiers of Outer Heaven are the real heroes and that the United States isn't. Outer Heaven was formed to prevent soldiers from being manipulated by their governments and is a society that revolves entirely around the military.

If the noble goals and structure of Outer Heaven isn't enough, it becomes apparent in sequels that the American government was under the control of a group known as The Patriots. The Patriots were only using their soldiers as puppets and even killing their own people to cover up their operations against the Chinese/Russian Philosophers in their secret cold war. Outer Heaven was formed in response to NATO, Chinese and Russian governments taking advantage of their soldiers and was formed to protect soldiers from abuse. I don't know about you, but I think Outer Heaven were the real heroes of the Metal Gear universe. What do you think?

[Barendon]

No. Big boss was a villian and a terrorist. He threatend to attack american citizens. Sure the patriots were the bad guys too, but that doesn't mean they didn't have good intentions. They wanted to promote their country and gain dominance over any other. Snake got caught in between and we got to see the struggle of two arch enemies up until the patriots started to break apart.

[Orange Joe]

Warning, this contains spoilers. I posted this in general off-topic, because this is more of a discussion about the philosophy behind the series

The Metal Gear games are my favorite form of anti-war art, as they have a great deal of depth to them. They replace the black-and-white morality that the media is rife with, and they place players in a situation where they end up killing the real heroes of the franchise. While arguments can be made for the morality of most antagonists in the series, I shall focus on Outer Heaven. By all means, feel free to point out other examples in the series, as there are plenty of them.

In the first Metal Gear game, the United States tries to topple the government of Outer Heaven and subvert their nuclear ambitions. While carrying out his mission, however, it quickly becomes apparent that the soldiers of Outer Heaven are the real heroes and that the United States isn't. Outer Heaven was formed to prevent soldiers from being manipulated by their governments and is a society that revolves entirely around the military.

If the noble goals and structure of Outer Heaven isn't enough, it becomes apparent in sequels that the American government was under the control of a group known as The Patriots. The Patriots were only using their soldiers as puppets and even killing their own people to cover up their operations against the Chinese/Russian Philosophers in their secret cold war. Outer Heaven was formed in response to NATO, Chinese and Russian governments taking advantage of their soldiers and was formed to protect soldiers from abuse. I don't know about you, but I think Outer Heaven were the real heroes of the Metal Gear universe. What do you think?

Something tells me you only played 1 or 2 of the games and didn't pay that much attention to the story.

[Edea]

No doubt Big Boss was a hero once. But after killing the Boss he makes some wrong choices and only at the very end does he understand what he should have done. Both him and Major Zero (representing the Patriots) wants to fulfill the wish of the Boss - they both misinterpret it. They both end up bad guys.
Eva explains all this very well in MGS4 and Big Boss also says he was wrong when he's talking to Snake right before he dies.

Outer Heaven had to be stopped. They were way too dangerous and their goal wasn't really all that noble either. They fought for the sake of fighting, cause they knew nothing else. You could argue they were not entirely to blame though, but that doesn't change anything.

I love Big Boss though, can't wait for MGS5

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

No. Big boss was a villian and a terrorist. He threatend to attack american citizens. Sure the patriots were the bad guys too, but that doesn't mean they didn't have good intentions. They wanted to promote their country and gain dominance over any other. Snake got caught in between and we got to see the struggle of two arch enemies up until the patriots started to break apart.

And the Americans didn't threaten to attack others? Didn't he say they killed their own people?

[Orange Joe]

And the Americans didn't threaten to attack others? Didn't he say they killed their own people?

This could be my memory failing, but I don't remember America threatening to attack anyone in the games.

[Deleted]

This could be my memory failing, but I don't remember America threatening to attack anyone in the games.

I think the closest was with MG Ray and the Marines as well as the purpose about Ray's construction.

[Edea]

The US being bad guys doesn't make Outer Heaven good guys.

[mvaliz]

There's a difference between standing up for what you believe in...and WHAT METHOD you choose to stand up for what you believe in.

For example, if you're anti abortion - there's a difference between protesting a clinic with picket signs and a demonstration vs blowing up the clinics with the Doctors inside them with a bomb.

[zura]

Big Boss is a good guy and a true patriot he never wanted power or conquest he created outer heaven to realise his dream: an army free from the short-sighted ambitions of nations, he helped many people and he saved the world many times (in MGS3, MGS Portable OPS, and MGS Peace Walker) from devastating nuclear wars even when he knew that his country betrays him, he only had to commit terrorist acts to free the world from the evil system that Major Zero created.

[Deleted]

The US being bad guys doesn't make Outer Heaven good guys.

That was the whole point of Metal Gear, everyone was in the moral grey area. Outer Heaven was grey because they tried to protect people by killing people, Patriots were grey because they tried to protect people by controlling them and Snake was grey because he tried to protect people but also killed a lot of people who never asked for this.

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Big Boss is a good guy and a true patriot he never wanted power or conquest he created outer heaven to realise his dream: an army free from the short-sighted ambitions of nations, he helped many people and he saved the world many times (in MGS3, MGS Portable OPS, and MGS Peace Walker) from devastating nuclear wars even when he knew that his country betrays him, he only had to commit terrorist acts to free the world from the evil system that Major Zero created.

Big Boss was not good, neither was he really that bad.

[satimy]

Weren't the patriots just extensions of the Philosophers? I think Big Boss lost some faith after seeing how his country treated "the boss" during MGS3, I think thats what drove him to want to make outer haven.

[zura]

Patriots were grey because they tried to protect people by controlling them and Snake was grey because he tried to protect people but also killed a lot of people who never asked for this.

The patriots are definitely the bad guys here, they try to control people's minds with nanomachines, they stole their principles, their dreams, their liberty, they wanted them to be ruled by a system that dectates their fate, Major Zero might have started his project with a noble goal but his lust for power made him do terrible things to humanity.

It's true that Snake and Big Boss did terrible things in their lives but sometimes pepole need to be killed for the Greater Good, this doesn't make the killer a bad person, it doesn't even make him grey, their intensions were good and things like liberty and justice doesn't come without a price, sacrifices had to be made to put an end to this system, in the end they destroyed it and freed the world from it.

[Deleted]

Weren't the patriots just extensions of the Philosophers? I think Big Boss lost some faith after seeing how his country treated "the boss" during MGS3, I think thats what drove him to want to make outer haven.

Nope. Whilst he lost faith that was what made him,Zero, para-medic and EVA form the Patriots using the Philosophers legacy. Outer Heaven was formed when Zero got greedy and Big Boss essentially said "fuck you" and left the Patriots.

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The patriots here are definitely the bad guys they try to control people's minds with nanomachines, the stole their principles, their dreams, their liberty, they wanted them to be ruled by a system that dectates their fate, Major Zero might have started his project with a noble goal but in the end his lust for power made him a very bad guy.

It's true that Snake and Big Boss did terrible things in their lives but sometimes pepole need to be killed for the Greater Good, this doesn't make the killer a bad person it doesn't even make him grey, their intensions were good and things like liberty and justice doesn't come without a price, sacrifices had to be made to put and end this evil system, in the end they end they destroyed it and freed the world from it.

Big Boss didn't want liberty or justice, he wanted a place for soldiers to feel at home, the battlefield. By him creating Outer Heaven he essentially become as bad as the Patriots because of the way they acted and went about things.

Big Boss wanted to help make The Boss's dream a reality but got it wrong, just like Zero.

Snake is the only who can in some way be considered good because he wanted to end the fighting, Big Boss and Zero wanted to create it.

[Orange Joe]

I think the closest was with MG Ray and the Marines as well as the purpose about Ray's construction.

MGS2 right? They were making the ray, but I don't remember them threatening anyone with it. Been a long time since I played MGS2.

[Deleted]

MGS2 right? They were making the ray, but I don't remember them threatening anyone with it. Been a long time since I played MGS2.

It was more of a deterrent/counter to other metal gears.

[zura]

Big Boss didn't want liberty or justice, he wanted a place for soldiers to feel at home, the battlefield. By him creating Outer Heaven he essentially become as bad as the Patriots because of the way they acted and went about things.

Big Boss wanted to help make The Boss's dream a reality but got it wrong, just like Zero.

Snake is the only who can in some way be considered good because he wanted to end the fighting, Big Boss and Zero wanted to create it.

It's true that both Big Boss and Zero misinterpretated the Boss's will, but at least Big Boss didn't try to hurt anyone to realise it, he built a military base in the middle of nowhere and he didn't want to interfere in politial conflits and wars, he only wanted to realise his vision of the perfect army, he only did the bad things beacause Major Zero abused him and destroyed his dream when he saw in him a threat to his system (In MGS5 he destroys Big Boss's base), he wanted revenge and at the same time he wanted the world to be free from the corruption of Zero's system. I can't see here why Big Boss is considered as a bad person in the story, he didn't start the war and he didn't want power, he always risks his life to correct the mistakes that bad people make.

Good and evil are subjective, you may see Big Boss as a bad guy and a terrorist and others may see him as a good person who walked a dark path to fulfill the greater good.
That's enough for today i'm off to bed now :P

[Deleted]

It's true that both Big Boss and Zero misinterpretated the Boss's will, but at least Big Boss didn't try to hurt anyone to realise it, he built a military base in the middle of nowhere and he didn't want to interfere in politial conflits and wars, he only wanted to realise his vision of the perfect army, he only did the bad things beacause Major Zero abused him and destroyed his dream when he saw in him a threat to his system (In MGS5 he destroys Big Boss's base), he wanted revenge and at the same time he wanted the world to be free from the corruption of Zero's system. I can't see here why Big Boss is considered as a bad person in the story, he didn't start the war and he didn't want power, he always risks his life to correct the mistakes that bad people make.

Good and evil are subjective, you may see Big Boss as a bad guy and a terrorist and others may see him as a good person who walked a dark path to fulfill the greater good.
That's enough for today i'm off to bed now :P

Big Boss at the start was good.

Big Boss after Zero's shenanigans was bad, there is a reason why Snake had to kill him.

That last paragraph is why it is all grey, it is because it is something that different people can look at and say good/bad. Metal Gear has no good or bad, that is why it is considered to be groundbreaking.

[Kaiser499]

If you think about it the games are pretty close to what's happened in real life.

[Deleted]

If you think about it the games are pretty close to what's happened in real life.

I...What?! I don't even. The only way you get that conclusion is if you don't think about it.