Weight training + diet questions. Get in here scientists

[Deleted]

Little bit of background information:

I trained pretty seriously for about 2 years, gained around 28 kilos of weight and my strength shot up. Had some fairly respectable lifts at the end of it all. Im a human health biology student, almost graduated (studying nutrition etc). I was also training the majority of the time with a friend of mine who is a semi professional athlete and certified personal trainer.

All this to say im not a beginner.

I lost my flare for training, or rather mainly the diet and ended up taking a pretty big break. Needless to say ive lost a bit of weight and im sure my strength has plummeted. I now want to get back into training, im not looking to pack on weight and size asap like was before...but i still want to progress.

My question for you guys, is how realistically do you think you can progress on a 'sub par' diet. For example, during my 2 year of serious training i had a very strict diet. I was consuming around 4000 calories a day of solid food, high protein etc etc. Towards the end of my run i lost interest in the diet, and it greatly affected my training. I lost strength and size and generally this killed my motivation to train. I should probably mention im one of those guys who is naturally skinny, very high metabolism, putting on weight is an up hill battle.

I cant go back to the diet if im honest, i dont have the time nor patience to be counting calories and macro nutrients all day. Not to say my diet would be terrible, i imagine i would average 2800-3000 calories a day, with a fairly high protein intake.

So what do you think? What have you learned during your training. How much results can i expect to see on a diet where im not really 'bulking' nor am i cutting. Just eating a respectable amount of quality food, and training smart. I dont want to bust my ass in the gym for months feeling like i cant get anywhere.

[Deleted]

If you eat less you should train less, although not less effective. On the contrary. This year I basicly switched things up to 3x6/8, from 4x8. With last set being max reps untill failure (if u get 8+ on last set its a sign to add weight). I like the explosive workouts better and it nets me more results. This has worked very well and gaining 2kg muscle mass on average each month.

I got the same thing you have, im skinny(got some fat last year tho, 17%) and a high metabolism. I'm 2 meters tall, and my diet is like 3k calories(I didnt exactly count it tho). If you have a hard time keeping up a diet you should find a way that works for you.
I did the following, im lazy and just want easy foods.
On training days I eat(not in this order):
Yoghurt, oats and cruesli.
0.4kg beans(400 calories, 25 grams of proteine) 5 mins in the microwave, easy after workout.
100 grams of Amarynth(high proteine some sort of rice with nice aminos) cook up like 300 grams, eat 100gr after workout and save rest in fridge for next day.
Bread + peanutbutter. At least 5.
Bread + chicken filet at least 3, with 2 filet pieces each.
2x Banana's
Nuts and peanuts on the random to fill up gaps
Evening meal, w/e I get served, always eating leftovers ofc.

Im adding cans of tuna now since this week, Since im losing fat like crazy with the above diet. Although in return I gained muscle so I stay even on the scale.

Supplements: I do 2 shakes with mixed proteine and complex carbs in the form of oats, in 400ml milk. A Pre-workout blend, after workout creatine.

Note: I usually work out at 18:00 without having had my evening meal yet. So in the evening im eating all the time.
On rest days I eat w/e I want and sometimes drop to 2k calories.

Im not a scientist but im just sharing my experience, I hope it helps and you gained some inspiration at least. If anyone has feedback it's always welcome ofcourse, I still like to learn and gain insights from others :-)

[Deleted]

Yeah always nice to hear peoples experience sounds like quite a diet you got there, excellent bulking diet.

So you think eat less = train less? Interesting.

I dont know how it works, i was maybe thinking, eat less and so train like a god to get results. But what you say does make some sense...

Aah training. Why must you confuse me so

[Deleted]

Well if you work out (for example) 3 hours with an high metabolism, you'll need to eat much more to compensate as your body will be in workout mode for 3 hours, so you'll lose a lot of nutritions which you already need.

In the end of the day I think its trail and error. Theres so many theories out there it drives you crazy.

I'd stay stick to the basics and measure up/go on the scale every 4 weeks so you can see if a different approach helped and go from there. Keep the basics in mind and focus on what works for you. Right now I myself aim to do as much as I can within 45-60 minutes.
So in short i'd advice to still train as a god, but do it in 1 hour max, so more an explosive kind of method and see if that works for you. Try to get some extra meals in that day as well.

btw with the above mentioned diet/training, I still lost ~3kg fat every 3 weeks, no cardio.

[Speedlance]

to lose fat and get strong you don't have to eat healthy, as long as you got control over your fat levels and get enough protein, I personally on a cut I get about 70 g of fat and lower it by 5g each time I stop losing weight (usually 60 is my lowest limit) and I eat at least 1 home made unhealthy meal a day.

As far as work outs goes, you could try 3 a day week full body work outs, if you're not looking for a stage appearance this will get you a decent looking body.

[Deleted]

Do i get your question right if it is along the line of "I want to train and improve but not count macros and have a serious diet"?

Well, if you studied nutrition you would know the answer is both easy but not straight forward. You can make progress on a sub par diet, heck the far majority of people who workout have a sub par diet, this however is of course subjective as i have no idea of what your idea of an sub par diet is. In a simplified case, we could boil it down to this: What is your goal and do your calories help your archive it?

If you plan to gain size and strength, are you eating enough for it to happen? And if you plan to lose weight are you on a proper caloric count to archive a weight loss? Without being nitty picky about details, calories is by far the most important factor in archiving either of the two goals. You don't have to live off a strict diet in any case, as long as you have a feeling of the content that you put in your body, which should be pretty easy considering you have studied some nutrition.

As long as you actually have a set goal, tracking progress should make it easy for you to make further adjustments. Are you gaining strength, are you gaining weight or are you at a stalemate, if so eat more than you did last week, trial and error is important. Exactly the same goes for other goals.

I however can't understand why you wouldn't count your macros, or atleast approximate them. I litteraly don't spend more than 30 seconds on logging each of my meals, and this is done while preparing what i am going to eat so it doesn't take any of my time that could be used on something else. As i always say "Progress is the biggest motivation", and not being motivated to use 30 seconds to log macros is the lack of motivation to make proper progress. You do not need a fixed diet to log your daily intake. Besides alot of smartphone apps exist to make this as easy and 1 2 3.

So in all simplifcation, yes you can make progress but progress is a reflection of effort.

[Velaniz]

OP, you were splurging on calories that first time. Quite frankly, no one needs 4k calories. You didn't give any numbers for what your lifts were, but I'd guess that most of those 28 kilos you put on were fat. 3k calories with a high protein intake is perfectly fine.

You should see rapid, continuous results for the short-term since you have a history of weight-lifting in the past - for this reason I'd suggest getting on a program that's planned around some kind of linear progression.

[Deleted]

No one needs 4k calories.

Really? Better rethink my diet then! In all seriousness, there is a good chunk of people who need that amount, mostly experienced athletes but some people do really have a naturally high metabolism.

[Deleted]

@Labze, Ha I must apologise I was struggling to word my OP, but you seem to have hit the nail on the head. What is my goal? I want to add size and strength over time, I'm not looking to gain as much weight and strength as I can, as fast as possible like I was before though. Am I eating enough for it to happen? Well this I'm unsure about. I previously bulked up on 4k calories a day and progress seemed to stall on not much less than that. 4k gave me a good pace, I'm worried that eating around 3k won't be enough. And what are the consequences of this? If I'm training on a deficit will I simply just not add any weight or strength? Will I lose some? Will it simply be slower?

@Vellaniz, 4k was a bulk for sure, it wasn't the leanest of bulks but I think you would be suprised about the fat gained. I don't think I've ever been above 20% BF, I naturally have ab definition and rarely lost it over the 2 years of training. I started at around 60kg's and ended up about 88kg. I currently sit at 72kg. That weight loss is from simply moving from 4k calories to 2.5k over about half a year, maybe slightly more. As for my lifts, previous bests were 110kg bench press for 1 rep, 145kgx3 squat, 160kg 1 rep deadlift. I dont claim to be the strongest but I could barely bench the bar when I first started

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Also I should add.

In terms of science and nutrition I've been taught the simplicity of calories in > calories out = weight gain, and vice versa.

I guess I'm really just curious how strict this is. I mean if you're diet isn't exactly a calorie surplus but you are eating in and around maintenance, surely training must have 'some' effect. I find it hard to believe (despite what my head says) that muscle growth can ONLY occur in a calorie surplus.

@Labze, one more thing. As for counting calories/macros. It's not so much the counting, it's trying to fit in high calorie intake from solid food sources that isn't junk. I had to put a lot of time into preparing meals and finding time to eat and I'm just really not up to another 4000 calorie diet. Unfortunately I do understand that you get back what you put in. Hence this post, I don't want to waste my time training with a diet that won't yield progress

[Marthenil]

Had a meeting with a nutritionist a few days ago. She adviced me against ready-made protein sources (protein shakes etc.)
Also, because i'm a uni student, she tried to keep the list as short and easily available as possible. In short she adviced me to keep my current meat/fish+salad low carb mantra (been doing this for 4 months now, lost 37 kilos with moderate to heavy workout).
The list goes like this: lean beef, cottage cheese, salmon, chicken breast, raw almonds, peanut-butter (unprocessed stuff not the crap with flavours etc), tenderloin, tuna.

My eating habit is something like this: A banana with peanut butter (I like to get some low calorie tortillas, spread peanut butter on one, add the banana and roll) for breakfast. meat/fish+salad (stuff like lettuce, spinach, broccoli and cabbage with a bit of olive oil and lemon/vinegar, no fancy sauces or other stuff) along with some cottage cheese for lunch. Midday I make sure I eat about 2-3 handfuls of raw almonds as a snack. I rarely eat dinner, but If I do it generally is either a banana or some more almonds.

The above is accompanied with 6 days a week training (3 days weight and 3 days cardio) and is meant to cover my protein needs for proper muscle development and fat burning. According to her, it's a perfectly viable diet that you can stick to for the rest of your life.

[Deleted]

@Labze, Ha I must apologise I was struggling to word my OP, but you seem to have hit the nail on the head. What is my goal? I want to add size and strength over time, I'm not looking to gain as much weight and strength as I can, as fast as possible like I was before though. Am I eating enough for it to happen? Well this I'm unsure about. I previously bulked up on 4k calories a day and progress seemed to stall on not much less than that. 4k gave me a good pace, I'm worried that eating around 3k won't be enough. And what are the consequences of this? If I'm training on a deficit will I simply just not add any weight or strength? Will I lose some? Will it simply be slower?

In terms of science and nutrition I've been taught the simplicity of calories in > calories out = weight gain, and vice versa.

I guess I'm really just curious how strict this is. I mean if you're diet isn't exactly a calorie surplus but you are eating in and around maintenance, surely training must have 'some' effect. I find it hard to believe (despite what my head says) that muscle growth can ONLY occur in a calorie surplus.

@Labze, one more thing. As for counting calories/macros. It's not so much the counting, it's trying to fit in high calorie intake from solid food sources that isn't junk. I had to put a lot of time into preparing meals and finding time to eat and I'm just really not up to another 4000 calorie diet. Unfortunately I do understand that you get back what you put in. Hence this post, I don't want to waste my time training with a diet that won't yield progress

Well the most simple thing to do is track your progress. Weight yourself several times a week, are you getting stronger and are your weight increasing? That should give your a pretty solid indication of you making progress with the current things your eating and doing. It is impossible to give an straight up answer to your question, other than: It depends. If you are in a caloric deficit you will most likely lose weight, it could make you weaker but it all comes down to your training regimen.

Muscles can grow outside of a caloric surplus. Its a gross simplification to say muscle growth only occurs in a caloric surplus but none the less a truth that in most cases are true, or at least noticeable. If you eat about maintenence levels, lets say +-200 calories, and your strength increases you could most likely assume that so did your muscle mass, however this would be extremely slow. This however is an approach some uses, bit of off-topic though but some people decrease body fat % by increasing muscle mass, however this is extreme strict leanbulking (Lowering bodyfat % by having same fat mass but increasing lean body mass).

In the end, only you can judge whatever it is worthwhile are not. Do you even have a motivation to start, and even more to keep going? If you lack 'healthy' foods that are calorie tight consider drinking your calories. Chocolate whey + peanut butter and milk blended are a healthy snack made in heaving and can be packed with calories and good fats.

[Aliessil]

OP, I'm at the opposite end of the scale in that I gain weight easily and lose it slowly. However, I'm steadily gaining muscle and losing fat without worrying about calories or paying too much attention to macronutrients. I just make sure I eat lots of protein and healthy fats, while avoiding starchy carbs & refined sugars. I know from experience I'm eating somewhere around 2-2.5k kcal/day.

I also know when I let my diet slip and start eating the carbs and sugars again, the weight piles on *fast* .. trouble is, that's where my food addictions are ><