Ability Bloat- Shaman Edition

[Eliot123]

I hope they won't remove Earth Elemental, it might not be terribly useful for raiding but it is a nice situational spell (Brawler's guild, solo quests, soloing old raids, battlegrounds, etc), plus removing it would mean changing Primal Elementalist... and is also a bit of a flavour spell too.

I don't think they should bake Frost Shock into another Shock, Frost Shock has a very specific purpose of slowing enemies down and if you bake it into Earth or Flame Shock, it would be one of those horrible clunky abilities with 2 effects (i.e. it's a solution that would make the problem worse).

What I think they should remove: Water Shield from Ele/Enha, Primal Strike for Ele/Resto, Lightning Shield for Restoration (make Magma Totem for them a bit more potent);
What I think they should rework, not remove: Earthquake, Magma Totem (removing it would leave restoration with no AoE and that would suck, a lot), Elemental Ascendance, Totemic Projection (make it baseline), Unleash Elements for Elemental.

When it comes to removing bloat by reworking spells, I think one more spell should be considered - Elemental Blast. Maybe make it replace Lightning Bolt if you pick that talent - it would have no cooldown, somewhat reduced damage compared to now and it would still have the random buff part ofc but at least it wouldn't be another button to push on cd (kinda how they made Solace replace Holy Fire for priests).

Also, they should leave weapon imbues as they are, imo. They are already in a drop menu (or pop-up menu or whatever you call it) so they don't take up a lot of space anyway.

[Omanley]

Imbunes and shield are managed with a pop out bar or addon with no need to every hit your bars. They also last 1hour already so i dont see the issue here.
primal strike is the predecessor to SS. .. what do you suggest for low lvls? auto attack only until lvl 35?
SWG fair point but it does have its uses especially in pvp
Earth elemental with PE gives a significant defensive boost. Not everything has to be about doing more and more damage.

Pop up bars or addons will additionally fill up your screen, why do that when you can just passive it? Is refreshing a buff once an hour a interesting or engaging part of game play? Imbues cannot be dispelled anyways, so having to cast them seems redundant. It's annoying when the buff runs out during a moment where you need it (happens rarely enough, but is something to consider), and aside from that can be considered a passive already. It's supposed to be up ALWAYS anyways.

Primal Strike was a dumb implementation, period. Make it so that PS will be replaced by SS the moment you get it, disappearing from the spellbook.
Either that or give it an actual use, later on. Enh has to few melee ability usage anyways. Only two strikes, with a 8 and 10 sec cd? Not enough for a melee spec imo.

SWG has it's uses, every now and then. But these types of spells blizz considers to give the axe. It's faint reasoning like that that kept stuff like Sentry in the game.
Enh has Healing Stream, Healing tide, MSW, Feral Spirits, AG (which can be amplified through dmg cooldowns), SBT or NG and with WoD also Storm Elemental Totem. Does it REALLY need SWG?

EET with PE... I'd like to think enh has enough defensive capabilities to survive raiding without needing talented EET. In pvp, where it "would" be useful, the go-to choice is EB, period.

[Deleted]

- stormblast is lightning nature damage but it cn be parried? how do you parry lightning!?!?.

You ground it

Searing Totem is crap. Just make Searing Flames from it melee proc like maelstrom or something. OR scrap it entirely.

[Raiju]

SWG has it's uses, every now and then. But these types of spells blizz considers to give the axe. It's faint reasoning like that that kept stuff like Sentry in the game.
Enh has Healing Stream, Healing tide, MSW, Feral Spirits, AG (which can be amplified through dmg cooldowns), SBT or NG and with WoD also Storm Elemental Totem. Does it REALLY need SWG?

I don't think I've ever played a 3's vs casters without using it. Enhancement gap closer is the movement speed increases, which is completely redundant if you give them too much ground.

[Deleted]

Pop up bars or addons will additionally fill up your screen, why do that when you can just passive it? Is refreshing a buff once an hour a interesting or engaging part of game play? Imbues cannot be dispelled anyways, so having to cast them seems redundant. It's annoying when the buff runs out during a moment where you need it (happens rarely enough, but is something to consider), and aside from that can be considered a passive already. It's supposed to be up ALWAYS anyways.

Primal Strike was a dumb implementation, period. Make it so that PS will be replaced by SS the moment you get it, disappearing from the spellbook.
Either that or give it an actual use, later on. Enh has to few melee ability usage anyways. Only two strikes, with a 8 and 10 sec cd? Not enough for a melee spec imo.

SWG has it's uses, every now and then. But these types of spells blizz considers to give the axe. It's faint reasoning like that that kept stuff like Sentry in the game.
Enh has Healing Stream, Healing tide, MSW, Feral Spirits, AG (which can be amplified through dmg cooldowns), SBT or NG and with WoD also Storm Elemental Totem. Does it REALLY need SWG?

EET with PE... I'd like to think enh has enough defensive capabilities to survive raiding without needing talented EET. In pvp, where it "would" be useful, the go-to choice is EB, period.

Bold already happens for enhance
Your last point is beyond ridiculous. The "go to" talent is what people choose to use. do you want another defensive? or more offensive pressure? You cant just say one is what must be used. especially with pvp being so dynamic.
Enh probably has the worst array of defensives of all the melee classes, coupled with low armour and a self heal mechanic that relies on on rng msw generation.

Also removing EET would mean a complete rework of PE is required and would make the talent pretty crap. as you just gutted half its value.

Enh isnt a flat direct melee spec though either. Its more of a melee/spell hybrid. the lack of melee dmg direct attacks is supplemented with FS and MSW LB hits

[Omanley]

I don't think I've ever played a 3's vs casters without using it. Enhancement gap closer is the movement speed increases, which is completely redundant if you give them too much ground.

I think you are confusing Spirit Walk (i.e. the enh specific sprint ability) with Spiritwaker's Grace (i.e. the avaiable to all specs Ability that allows casting damage and healing spells on the move).

[Deleted]

I don't think I've ever played a 3's vs casters without using it. Enhancement gap closer is the movement speed increases, which is completely redundant if you give them too much ground.

I think this is the fundamental problem. People see talents they dont personally use and point it as ability bloat. If you are playing properly in raids and also PVP as enhance you prtty much use 99% of your spellbook in one way or another

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I think you are confusing Spirit Walk (i.e. the enh specific sprint ability) with Spiritwaker's Grace (i.e. the avaiable to all specs Ability that allows casting damage and healing spells on the move).

I dont think he is. You just underestimate the impact SWG has

[Deleted]

This is interesting. The guide on TotemSpot does recommend FS with UE over ES. But Purge is also the custodian for the SimulationCraft profile, right? The SimC profile is a little more nuanced.

For SimulationCraft, the recommendation is:

1. Flame Shock, with Unleash Flame when the target has no FS debuff.
2. Flame Shock, with Unleash Flame and either (a) the existing Flame Shock dot expires in < 10 seconds or (b) the new Flame Shock dot will be stronger than the existing debuff.
3. Flame Shock, if the target has no FS debuff.
4. Earth Shock, if you're not glyphed for Frost Shock or you're wearing T14 4pc.

(Just for clarification's sake, #2 and #3 are part of the same conditional, just split out here for readability.)

The SimC profile casts Earth Shock 34 times vs. Flame Shock 21.9 times (let's call it a 3:2 ES:FS ratio).

You use ES as last priority but you DO NOT refresh stronger Flame Shock with weaker one.

If i Pre-pot, Synapse Springs, Double Agility Trinket proc + Unleash Flame + Blood Fury buff then I will let that FS go for full or close to full duration. 40k non-crit FS ticks are that good. When I got strong FS running I use ES to not lose dps but it's still dead last in priority.

I got PowerAurasClassic to inform me about trinket procs and the like.

11k non-crit FS ticks vs 40k non-crit FS ticks. I know which one is better:>

[Deleted]

You use ES as last priority but you DO NOT refresh stronger Flame Shock with weaker one.

If i Pre-pot, Synapse Springs, Double Agility Trinket proc + Unleash Flame + Blood Fury buff then I will let that FS go for full or close to full duration. 40k non-crit FS ticks are that good. When I got strong FS running I use ES to not lose dps but it's still dead last in priority.

I got PowerAurasClassic to inform me about trinket procs and the like.

No-one is arguing against that. His point seems to be if you have UE up use FS anyway regardless which is wrong. Absolutely no point refreshing a strong dot with a weaker one

[Deleted]

I think you are confusing Spirit Walk (i.e. the enh specific sprint ability) with Spiritwaker's Grace (i.e. the avaiable to all specs Ability that allows casting damage and healing spells on the move).

You underestimate SWG. Running around corner after that healer... but hey! Now with SWG you can chase him AND Hex him on the move or whatever else you got in mind.

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No-one is arguing against that. His point seems to be if you have UE up use FS anyway regardless which is wrong. Absolutely no point refreshing a strong dot with a weaker one

Yup. That's why I made it clear with explanation.

Stronger dot > weaker ones regardless of what SimCraft says. We got brains for a reason

[Omanley]

Your last point is beyond ridiculous. The "go to" talent is what people choose to use. do you want another defensive? or more offensive pressure? You cant just say one is what must be used. especially with pvp being so dynamic.
Enh probably has the worst array of defensives of all the melee classes, coupled with low armour and a self heal mechanic that relies on on rng msw generation.

Also removing EET would mean a complete rework of PE is required and would make the talent pretty crap. as you just gutted half its value.

Enh isnt a flat direct melee spec though either. Its more of a melee/spell hybrid. the lack of melee dmg direct attacks is supplemented with FS and MSW LB hits

Check what top ranking enhancers spec. They all take EB. Enh doesn't have the strongest defensive, that's right. But without EB, they are even more lacking, in offensive burst. EB is capable of hitting harder than anything else in arena. It benefits from SS debuff (+25% crit) and Unleash Flame (+30% damage), it's damage can beat Stormblast and when coupled with it, presents enhance's most prominent strenght: offensive burst. Forsaking that strenght for a little damage reduction and a stun tied to a 3min cd? Are you serious?
There are situational talent tiers, yes. They are the first (SBT or NG, NG being more prominent) and the 2nd (though WWT is most popular) one, because your partners can can take care of your shortcomings there. Burst damage is irreplacable in pvp though.

A complete rework of PE? You only need to remove EET's part, done. Also they will add Storm Elemental's part (they confirmed it in the most recent post on main page), so they're gonna rework it anyways. What's gonna change big time by removing a part of PE that was just added as a formality anyways? 99% is for FET. EET is mostly used just for it's damage or as a niche when soloing.

Enh is a flat melee spec. It attacks in melee and through that:
-deals auto attack damage
-procs wf and ft
-uses SS and LL
-procs MSW and through that uses LB/CL/EB
-procs Static Shock

UE/UF empowers melee attacks mostly (attack speed and static shock through auto attacks, where are you gonna benefit from that except in melee? and empowered LBs come from MSW, which is melee).

The what? 10-15%? of our damage that come from spells that could be used on range make us a hybrid? Nope. Enh sucks ass just like the other melees once kited in pvp. UE/Shocks wont win us games or make up for anything.
If not for additional melee strikes, I'd at least like the ability to pool melee damage (a type of recource) or refresh SS/LL cooldowns, preferably not low % rng based.

MSW/LB is a dumb addition for enh. The concept to enhance casting speed for non-melee abilities for a melee specialisation by itself is dumb. A proc to simply make the next spell instant (no charges) would be the sensible choice, like we've seen with the other specs. And even then, we'd be 95% melee.
Spamming LB when on range ooms us, aside form that it's a 15sec UE and 6 sec shock. Groovy.

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I think this is the fundamental problem. People see talents they dont personally use and point it as ability bloat. If you are playing properly in raids and also PVP as enhance you prtty much use 99% of your spellbook in one way or another

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I dont think he is. You just underestimate the impact SWG has

I think he does, as he specifically mentions "enhancement gap closing", which makes no sense in relation with SWG, but plenty for SW.

[Jester Joe]

You underestimate SWG. Running around corner after that healer... but hey! Now with SWG you can chase him AND Hex him on the move or whatever else you got in mind.

Doesn't Maelstrom and AS make it an instant cast anyway? I mean, I get SWG can be good if you don't have either available to you, but if you can do the job with others, it might not stay then...although I hope they don't remove SWG, I use it healing a lot, but I think actually didn't they already say things like SWG are safe, but passive things like casting LB on the move are being reconsidered?

[Omanley]

You underestimate SWG. Running around corner after that healer... but hey! Now with SWG you can chase him AND Hex him on the move or whatever else you got in mind.

The problem here lies in Hex being casted in the first place. For enh in the least, it should be instant cast baseline, from a balance POV. Looking at other CCs, they have either a cd, OR a cast time. Hex having both is a pretty ridiculous downside compared to other cc. Justifying a bad ability through another bad one doesn't make either good. Hex loses out in other areas as well (being countered COMPLETELY by having ANY spec of druid in the enemy arena team), and not removing the target's control.

Another point (though blizz apparently wants to remove this stuff in WoD) is to make Hex instant via AS (the go-to choice among high rankers specifically for insta hexing, as well as EM being dispellable and EotE being unreliable esp after being nerfed), so SWG will largely not be needed for hex anyway.

[Deleted]

Doesn't Maelstrom and AG make it an instant cast anyway? I mean, I get SWG can be good if you don't have either available to you, but if you can do the job with others, it might not stay then...although I hope they don't remove SWG, I use it healing a lot, but I think actually didn't they already say things like SWG are safe, but passive things like casting LB on the move are being reconsidered?

Maelstrom will give you an instant hex but you need 5 stacks. AG is a healing buff which requires you to be hitting stuffs to work :P I dont think any hard castable spells should be usable whilst moving its just blizz being stupid over the years.

Increase range dips range to 40yrds... oh shit now melee need more closers to get close... but wait.. now ranged need to get away more.. lets add more cc... hey guys, wouldn't it be funny if we kept adding more and more cc

[Omanley]

AG is a healing buff which requires you to be hitting stuffs to work :P I dont think any hard castable spells should be usable whilst moving its just blizz being stupid over the years.

I'm afraid this is another "confused A with B" case. He likely confused AG (Ancestral Guidance in 5th tier) with AS (Ancestral Swiftness in 4th tier). The latter makes your next casted spell instant. AS is the go to choice in high ranked pvp, as mentioned in my previous post, for using with Hex. It would likely replaced with EotE if Hex were made instant for enh baseline, or even EM (against teams w/o offensive dispell, or if they made it undispellable).

[Jester Joe]

I'm afraid this is another "confused A with B" case. He likely confused AG (Ancestral Guidance in 5th tier) with AS (Ancestral Swiftness in 4th tier). The latter makes your next casted spell instant. AS is the go to choice in high ranked pvp, as mentioned in my previous post, for using with Hex. It would likely replaced with EotE if Hex were made instant for enh baseline, or even EM (against teams w/o offensive dispell, or if they made it undispellable).

Herp derp I did, wrong button! lol

[thatguy181]

What I think they should remove: Water Shield from Ele/Enha, Primal Strike for Ele/Resto, Lightning Shield for Restoration

Didn't Blizzard say they want to remove stuff you actually feel you NEED to have on your action bars?

All those abilities are abilities that the spec of Shaman shouldn't even have on their bar. Water Shield is never going to be on an DPS Shaman's bar. Lightning Shield is the furthest thing from a Resto Shaman's mind. Primal Strike holds zero interest for a Int based Shaman.

Yes, they should make those spells spec specific, but that shouldn't free up action bar space. Shaman who had those are hopefully numbered in the single digits.


What I would like to see happen is things like making Lightning Shield an aura type ability for Enhancement/Elemental. You know you're suppose to have it on, it's one of the first things you refresh when you ankh up because you're literally bad without it on. Just make it a stupid aura then. Bam, no longer have to keep the button on the bars. Likewise Water Shield for resto should be an aura.

I'd like to see Weapon Imbues become an aura as well. Yes, it last an hour and through death, but honestly, it's a waste of a space that could easily be removed if it were an aura that was just always on after you selected it from your spellbook.

[Deleted]

Didn't Blizzard say they want to remove stuff you actually feel you NEED to have on your action bars?

All those abilities are abilities that the spec of Shaman shouldn't even have on their bar. Water Shield is never going to be on an DPS Shaman's bar. Lightning Shield is the furthest thing from a Resto Shaman's mind. Primal Strike holds zero interest for a Int based Shaman.

Yes, they should make those spells spec specific, but that shouldn't free up action bar space. Shaman who had those are hopefully numbered in the single digits.


What I would like to see happen is things like making Lightning Shield an aura type ability for Enhancement/Elemental. You know you're suppose to have it on, it's one of the first things you refresh when you ankh up because you're literally bad without it on. Just make it a stupid aura then. Bam, no longer have to keep the button on the bars. Likewise Water Shield for resto should be an aura.

I'd like to see Weapon Imbues become an aura as well. Yes, it last an hour and through death, but honestly, it's a waste of a space that could easily be removed if it were an aura that was just always on after you selected it from your spellbook.

That wouldn't really achieve anything though. Clicking something once per hour vs once. You would still also end up with the same amount bound to keys for when you switch during fights ect

[Omanley]

What I would like to see happen is things like making Lightning Shield an aura type ability for Enhancement/Elemental. You know you're suppose to have it on, it's one of the first things you refresh when you ankh up because you're literally bad without it on. Just make it a stupid aura then. Bam, no longer have to keep the button on the bars. Likewise Water Shield for resto should be an aura.

I'd like to see Weapon Imbues become an aura as well. Yes, it last an hour and through death, but honestly, it's a waste of a space that could easily be removed if it were an aura that was just always on after you selected it from your spellbook.

That's exactly what I'm hoping for, for exactly the reasons you've mentioned. Glad others share my point. They could even remove the "select from your spellbook" part, since, as they mentioned, imbues are not meant to be optional. That means one imbue avaiable and automatically on for each spec (two for enh).

You switch your spec, you automatically switch imbues.

[Deleted]

That's exactly what I'm hoping for, for exactly the reasons you've mentioned. Glad others share my point. They could even remove the "select from your spellbook" part, since, as they mentioned, imbues are not meant to be optional. That means one imbue avaiable and automatically on for each spec (two for enh).

You switch your spec, you automatically switch imbues.

How would that work with things like frostbrand or rockbiter? Each both have their benefit in certain situations. Backing three imbunes into one would be.. odd. I could see maybe Flametongue and frostbrand being merged for enh into something weird providing the effects of both. But that still leaves rockbiter out in the cold.