Bruce Schneier: It's time to break up the NSA

[ringpriest]

Security expert Bruce Schneier has recently suggested the NSA be broken up, and United States surveillance and cyber-warfare reorganized. From the article:

First, TAO and its targeted surveillance mission should be moved under the control of U.S. Cyber Command, and Cyber Command should be completely separated from the NSA. Actively attacking enemy networks is an offensive military operation, and should be part of an offensive military unit.

Whatever rules of engagement Cyber Command operates under should apply equally to active operations such as sabotaging the Natanz nuclear enrichment facility in Iran and hacking a Belgian telephone company. If we're going to attack the infrastructure of a foreign nation, let it be a clear military operation.

Second, all surveillance of Americans should be moved to the FBI.

The FBI is charged with counterterrorism in the United States, and it needs to play that role. Any operations focused against U.S. citizens need to be subject to U.S. law, and the FBI is the best place to apply that law. That the NSA can, in the view of many, do an end-run around congressional oversight, legal due process and domestic laws is an affront to our Constitution and a danger to our society. The NSA's mission should be focused outside the United States -- for real, not just for show.

And third, the remainder of the NSA needs to be rebalanced so COMSEC (communications security) has priority over SIGINT (signals intelligence). Instead of working to deliberately weaken security for everyone, the NSA should work to improve security for everyone.

I'd personally like to see the NSA completely eliminated, with the U.S. government's intrusive and ubiquitous surveillance ended both within and beyond the US borders. Its employees can be pensioned off or transfered to useful work elsewhere, such as actually securing communications. (Which was theoretically part of the NSA's original mission, but in fact the exact opposite of what they're actually doing.) But if that's not going to happen Bruce Schneier's proposal seems like a rational way to address the issue of ongoing NSA malfeasance. What do you think?

[Nobleshield]

The NSA is a waste of taxpayer money, like DHS and other organizations. It should be abolished completely.

[Tradewind]

Get rid of it so we can stop having NSA related threads. Need to get back to discussions only involving the Big Three. Guns, Minorities, and Online Dating.

[Lenonis]

What do you think?

Well, I think that a NSA reorg with increased oversight is probably a much needed change....however...

I'd personally like to see the NSA completely eliminated, with the U.S. government's intrusive and ubiquitous surveillance ended both within and beyond the US borders.

I think that's both unrealistic and dangerous. As out of control as the NSA has been I'm sure they have done quite a bit of good work.

[Skroe]

I'd personally like to see the NSA completely eliminated, with the U.S. government's intrusive and ubiquitous surveillance ended both within and beyond the US borders. Its employees can be pensioned off or transfered to useful work elsewhere, such as actually securing communications. (Which was theoretically part of the NSA's original mission, but in fact the exact opposite of what they're actually doing.) But if that's not going to happen Bruce Schneier's proposal seems like a rational way to address the issue of ongoing NSA malfeasance. What do you think?

I agree entirely.

Except the day after, I would recreate it in secret (as it was for decades) by transferring it's employees there.

The bolded part is crazy, crazy, crazy. What part of Obama's "We will not unilaterally disarm" did you have trouble comprehending ringpriest. HA! Maybe in some fantastical alternate reality, you'll get what you want. Not this one though. If anything, Cyber wins in the 2015 budget. It got $10.9 billion in 2014. It will get upwards of $12 billion in 2015. Obama is doubling down. We all have crazy things we want. I want us to genetically back engineer chicken into a dinosaur-like creature that can be kept as a particularly awesome house pet, but we're both not getting the crazy things we want. Your statement about the NSA and spying is at exactly the same level.

As for Bruce Scnieier... he can think whatever the hell he wants. It'a free county. But the President of the United States pretty much already said "no, get lost", and then chuckled a little after saying it. Soooooo.... sucks for Bruce and you, I guess? The debate is over. The decision has been made. You lost.

Here, I'll link it just to drive the point home. I even queued it up for you (17 minutes 9 seconds). Have a nice day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4MKm...=share&t=17m9s



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Get rid of it so we can stop having NSA related threads. Need to get back to discussions only involving the Big Three. Guns, Minorities, and Online Dating.

NSA threads are just obnoxious posture pieces at this point. As everyone with half a brain predicted, it's 2014, the world moved on to other issues (Ukraine) and no one gives a shit about Edward Snowden anymore. His 15 minutes are way over. I'm sure his pals will keep leaking more specialty market stuff (i.e. US Spying in Indonesia just as the US/Indonesians are meeting), but it's already well past the point of depreciating returns (The Indonesians didn't particularly care, and just got mad at Australia, which they do over pretty much everything anyway). The entire ordeal is running on fumes.

A scientist who moon lights for the guardian writes an op-ed about the NSA. That is where we are on the issue in 2014.

Mean while the NSA is about to be showered in money for another year. Who is losing exactly? Not the NSA, that's for sure. I'm gonna go with the anti-NSA fringe, which is fighting for relevancy in a world that forgot about them.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Not even 5 posts and Skro champion of NSA comes

[Endus]

I'd personally like to see the NSA completely eliminated, with the U.S. government's intrusive and ubiquitous surveillance ended both within and beyond the US borders.

This is really a completely unrealistic expectation. Not just in today's world, in any world. What you're saying is you want your government to have zero capacity to investigate and observe any citizens, for any reason, under any circumstances, ever. This means they can't collect any data, up to and including name/address and whether you're a citizen, that they can't investigate crimes or surveil those suspected of criminal activity, etc.

There is no way that can happen, and a nation cannot feasibly exist without such.

There should certainly be limits on that capacity, but the existence thereof is a fundamental requirement.

[Very Tired]

Not even 5 posts and Skro champion of NSA comes

He must work for the NSA to get these fast responses, it all makes sense.

[Xeones]

I won't lie I find myself disturbed that the winning option is "Abolish the NSA, greatly reduce or eliminate digital spying."

We need to be ahead of potential enemies, not behind.

[Tradewind]

I won't lie I find myself disturbed that the winning option is "Abolish the NSA, greatly reduce or eliminate digital spying."

We need to be ahead of potential enemies, not behind.

Sorry. I voted for it because I like breaking dumb polls.

[Skroe]

Not even 5 posts and Skro champion of NSA comes

Someone has to push back against this kind of crap!

I mean honestly, what would an internet forum be in 2014 without inane anti-NSA rantings, the crap about socialism and anti-capitalism that has intellectually clogged up the internet since 1994, a few stray anti-American subjects, stuff about sexuality, guns and relationships. It's an entirely predictable cornucopia of subjects.

The opinion that the NSA should be abolished and the US shouldn't electronically spy, when NO OTHER COUNTRIES WILL FOLLOW SUIT, is utterly, absolutely, unbelievably, moronic. I mean that. Moron-ic. It's crazy. Whoever has that opinion might as well be wishing for a world where UPS can deliver magic wands so we can enchant carpets and ride them to work. It's so fucking fantastical as to defy logic, politics, reason and rationality.

Like what would that proposal do precisely? Well pretty much put an end to NSA threads, and that's it. Is any other country going to follow suit? A big fat nope. So I'm not even sure of the point. Is it a gesture? Is it a feel good exercise? When I say it's fucking nuts, this is what I mean. Sensible actions have a rational reason behind them. The existence and the job the NSA does, agree or disagree, is based on a rational line of thought about it's necessity.

Where is the rationality this idea of ringpriest's?

I wrote this post, and the one above, laughing to myself and smiling as I wrote it. The very idea is so utterly irrational it's comical. Because that is honestly how I feel. Amused. This idea is like... so out there, I don't even know how to react other than... well... like this.

[Endus]

The opinion that the NSA should be abolished and the US shouldn't electronically spy, when NO OTHER COUTNRIES WILL FOLLOW SUIT, is utterly, absolutely, unbelievably, moronic. I mean that. Moron-ic. It's crazy. Whoever ahs that opinion might as well be wishing for a world where UPS can deliver magic wands so we can enchant carpents and ride them to work. It's so fucking fantastical as to defy logic, politics, reason and rationality.

And that's the root issue.

Has the NSA gone "too far"? Probably. Does that mean the solution is to get rid of it entirely and stop all surveillance activity whatsoever? Of course not. That's like saying you put a little too much salt on your steak, better throw out the kitchen and build a new one. It's a knee-jerk reaction, not a rational stance.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

This is really a completely unrealistic expectation. Not just in today's world, in any world. What you're saying is you want your government to have zero capacity to investigate and observe any citizens, for any reason, under any circumstances, ever. This means they can't collect any data, up to and including name/address and whether you're a citizen, that they can't investigate crimes or surveil those suspected of criminal activity, etc.

There is no way that can happen, and a nation cannot feasibly exist without such.

There should certainly be limits on that capacity, but the existence thereof is a fundamental requirement.

Oh yeah, how did we ever get along without the NSA. No countries ever existed before computer dragnets.

[Endus]

Oh yeah, how did we ever get along without the NSA. No countries ever existed before computer dragnets.

The NSA does a lot more than the computer stuff, y'know. It's been around since the '50s. Computer data is just a big part of SIGINT in the modern era, which is why they're involved in that.

Abolishing the NSA without changing policy regarding the collection and use of SIGINT will change nothing. And changing that policy means there's no reason to abolish the NSA in the first place.

[Tradewind]

The NSA does a lot more than the computer stuff, y'know. It's been around since the '50s. Computer data is just a big part of SIGINT in the modern era, which is why they're involved in that.

I thought they started way back in WW1. Or at least its earliest predecessor.

[Endus]

I thought they started way back in WW1. Or at least its earliest predecessor.

Well, yes. I'm just talking about when they were officially designated as such, to avoid people saying "oh, but they were CALLED something else, so it wasn't ACTUALLY the NSA, even though they were the same people doing the same job".

Signal intelligence is a big deal. It's how things like the Enigma machine were decoded and used to great effect during WWII. It isn't a "new thing", just its application to computer networks (and even that dates back as far as we've had computer networks). The central issue is that people have so much more of their personal information easily accessible through SIGINT channels, and policy hasn't adapted to reflect that.

[Xeones]

Realistically the only issue I have with the NSA is how wasteful it was. I liked the idea of this Schneier guy to break the NSA and send those activities to agencies better suited to the task.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

All I can think of NSA is


Who watches the NSA?

/Watchmen

[ringpriest]

This is really a completely unrealistic expectation. Not just in today's world, in any world. What you're saying is you want your government to have zero capacity to investigate and observe any citizens, for any reason, under any circumstances, ever. This means they can't collect any data, up to and including name/address and whether you're a citizen, that they can't investigate crimes or surveil those suspected of criminal activity, etc.

There is no way that can happen, and a nation cannot feasibly exist without such.

There should certainly be limits on that capacity, but the existence thereof is a fundamental requirement.

Please don't read more into my post than I put there. You're indulging in hyperbole. I explicitly stated I wanted the NSA elminated, along with "intrusive and ubiquitous surveillance". (You even quoted that part off my post!) I don't think having a driver's license is intrusive, or that having its information in a database constitutes ubiquitious surveillance. Police doing stakeouts or undercover work isn't ubiquitious unless there's a vast secret police doing it to large segments of the population at a time, such as in East Germany. (Sadly, that does seem to be where some people want the U.S. to go.)

You're acting as though there's no difference between the local police or FBI getting a warrant for a search, and using a nation-wide database to put large numbers people on a secret list of suspects. The latter sort of surveillance is ripe for abuse and has a history noticeably lacking in positive outcomes in the real world. (Anyone who claims mass surveillance has secretly prevented many massive attacks has taken themselves out of the realm of rational discussion and can go stuff themselves in a book on logical fallacies.)

Countries can, have, and will exist without the Stasi-like ability to spy on everyone all the time. You do not need to build the tools for an Orwellian surveillance state in order to have law enforcement.

[Tradewind]

Clearly the NSA should just go back to focusing on space exploration.