Hundreds of African refugees storm border of Melilla (Spanish exclave)

[Skullslasher]

Larger empires failed because they sought power, dominance, control. They expanded because of that. They were not a Conglomeration of the Peoples of Earth. They were not driven by the needs of the people. They were all-consuming, violent and exploitative. As for administration: Well; they didn't have the internet... The internet is a real game-changer.

We can have a single earth, where each person has the same rights. It doesn't need to be anarchy.
But in order to get it, we must first change some things.

The internet will not pave roads; the internet will not provide health care; the people on the internet will not pay for your health care. The internet is but a new form of communication; the nation-state,however,is the most important actor when it comes to infrastructure(both international and national)

[Stir]

The internet will not pave roads; the internet will not provide health care; the people on the internet will not pay for your health care. The internet is but a new form of communication; the nation-state,however,is the most important actor when it comes to infrastructure(both international and national)

I think you underestimate the importance of communication.
But you're right; it doesn't create infrastructure.
On the other hand... Our technological level is progressing rapidly. And its current growth is at the very least party to do with the ease of communication offered by the internet. And this technology... DOES create infrastructure. Sustainable energy becomes easier and more efficient as we speak, battery technology is very quickly becoming better and better, and transportation devices become more and more efficient. All of those factors combined offer us new and better resources from which we can build a world civilization. It will happen eventually, you know.

[Mihalik]

I don't think anyone could blame them if they opened fire.

Immigrants illegally entering a country with nothing like this are just going to cause a drastic increase in crime. Just because their home is crappy doesn't mean they get to go destroy other nations.

You can't just shoot people, who's biggest crime is being insanely desperate. Sub-Saharan immigrants aren't really a major source of violent crime in Spain. They usually end up working seasonal jobs in agriculture in south of Spain or they peddle in counterfeit goods to tourists. A lot of women do end up working as prostitutes, although prostitution is not legal in Spain, neither is it illegal per see.

They really aren't violent or seen as a huge problem.

But perhaps exactly do to this attitude they aren't persecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Something that encourages further immigration, knowing that once in Europe, they have a good chance to not be detained or deported.

There was an incident recently where a number of migrants died after crossing the Mediterranean in boats and as they were attempting to swim ashore on the last leg of their journey the Spanish Coast Guard opened fire on the swimmers with rubber bullets, causing several people to drown.

[Choptimus]

...300 African migrants have stormed a border...

It's been more than thirty years since the wolf and the winter cold. And now, as then, it is not fear that grips him, only restlessness. A heightened sense of things. The seaborn breeze, coolly, kissing the sweat at his chest and neck. Gulls cawing, complaining, even as they feast on the thousands of floating dead. The steady breathing of the 300 at his back, ready to die for him without a moment's pause. Everyone of them ready, to die.

[Skullslasher]

I think you underestimate the importance of communication.
But you're right; it doesn't create infrastructure.
On the other hand... Our technological level is progressing rapidly. And its current growth is at the very least party to do with the ease of communication offered by the internet. And this technology... DOES create infrastructure. Sustainable energy becomes easier and more efficient as we speak, battery technology is very quickly becoming better and better, and transportation devices become more and more efficient. All of those factors combined offer us new and better resources from which we can build a world civilization. It will happen eventually, you know.

The state will not give up its power. In case you can't realize, the worlds countries will eventually reenter a colonial era; this time in space.

[Charge me Doctor]

You can't just shoot people, who's biggest crime is being insanely desperate. Sub-Saharan immigrants aren't really a major source of violent crime in Spain. They usually end up working seasonal jobs in agriculture in south of Spain or they peddle in counterfeit goods to tourists. A lot of women do end up working as prostitutes, although prostitution is not legal in Spain, neither is it illegal per see.

They really aren't violent or seen as a huge problem.

But perhaps exactly do to this attitude they aren't persecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Something that encourages further immigration, knowing that once in Europe, they have a good chance to not be detained or deported.

There was an incident recently where a number of migrants died after crossing the Mediterranean in boats and as they were attempting to swim ashore on the last leg of their journey the Spanish Coast Guard opened fire on the swimmers with rubber bullets, causing several people to drown.

Their biggest crime is illegal immigration. Do you know how many "insanely desperate" people turn to criminals? Like, pirates from Somali.

[Deleted]

well those people are desperate and all they want is a better life, so you wanna kill or injure them for that? what is wrong with you people

[Charge me Doctor]

well those people are desperate and all they want is a better life, so you wanna kill or injure them for that? what is wrong with you people

No one wants to kill or injure them, but they have no right to just "come" to other country, it's not how world works right now

[Deleted]

No one wants to kill or injure them, but they have no right to just "come" to other country, it's not how world works right now

did you read the first page of this very thread? Also I'd argue that borders are imaginary things anyway

[Charge me Doctor]

did you read the first page of this very thread? Also I'd argue that borders are imaginary things anyway

Well, no one of wants and no one does is different things. These people break the law, they can't just move to another country by passing border. No matter how desperate they are.

Well, lets do it then, borders are not imaginary if they are guarded, you can clearly see the border.

[artemishunter1]

well those people are desperate and all they want is a better life, so you wanna kill or injure them for that? what is wrong with you people

Their better life would come at the expanse of good life of local citizens. Since, they are not educated, have no useful skills, either would have to live with welfare (taking money away from locals) or turn to life of crime to survive. Yes, borders are imagery. I agree. Now, solve these problems i listed.

[Mihalik]

No one wants to kill or injure them, but they have no right to just "come" to other country, it's not how world works right now

At no point did I say they have the right to go migrate illegally to Europe. But "opening fire" is really not a good way to go about preventing this. Something a lot of people seem to be asking for on the first page.

Also there is a problem with deporting them back to Morocco (a transit country that most seem to cross while on their way to Europe), as Moroccan authorities seem to terribly mistreat them.

There is a moral question here beyond the purely economic, demographic and political one.

Does illegal immigration warrant the use of violence? Is handing them back to people who we know will inflict harm on them justifiable? It is complicated.

[Moadar]

At no point did I say they have the right to go migrate illegally to Europe. But "opening fire" is really not a good way to go about preventing this. Something a lot of people seem to be asking for on the first page.

Also there is a problem with deporting them back to Morocco (a transit country that most seem to cross while on their way to Europe), as Moroccan authorities seem to terribly mistreat them.

There is a moral question here beyond the purely economic, demographic and political one.

Does illegal immigration warrant the use of violence? Is handing them back to people who we know will inflict harm on them justifiable? It is complicated.

The humane thing to do is let the refugees choose- get shot or go back to morocco.