Gay protagonists in AAA games

[Deleted]

Mass Effect and Dragon Age aren't AAA games?

Ofc they are. The problem is they only represent 0.0XXXXX of all AAA games that relate to the topic in discussion.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Ofc they are. The problem is they only represent 0.0XXXXX of all AAA games that relate to the topic in discussion.

I mean, Skyrim, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are some of the biggest games out there.. not to mention others. What percent of AAA games should have a gay protagonist/characters?

[xytech]

I'm highly unlikely to play a game if it includes romance between gay men. I'm fine with people being gay, doesn't mean I want it forced down my throat (pun intended).

[GrinningMan]

I could care less about homosexuality, heterosexuality, transgendered, racism, classism, sexism, secularism, whatever.

How about more characters that are people instead of stereotypes? How about characters that are more than pandering to a social group?

How about characters that bring about a real emotional response when something good or bad happens to them? How about non-cheesy love stories that are really of two people overcoming obstacles instead of crappy skill-checks and 'hee hee penis and penis/vagina and vagina' flirt lines with paper thin morality systems?

I'd be insulted if sexuality became just something people throw a bone to get a 'target audience' to try the game out. Chekov's Gun being applied to sexuality? Really? This is what people want now?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I could care less about homosexuality, heterosexuality, transgendered, racism, classism, sexism, secularism, whatever.

How about more characters that are people instead of stereotypes? How about characters that are more than pandering to a social group?

How about characters that bring about a real emotional response when something good or bad happens to them? How about non-cheesy love stories that are really of two people overcoming obstacles instead of crappy skill-checks and 'hee hee penis and penis/vagina and vagina' flirt lines with paper thin morality systems?

I'd be insulted if sexuality became just something people throw a bone to get a 'target audience' to try the game out. Chekov's Gun being applied to sexuality? Really? This is what people want now?

I think that would be really hard to accomplish with games like Mass Effect. There are too many options to make every relationship possibly meaningful. The game would end up being 75% romantic dialogue.

But I agree, I wish things were a little more... deep.

[Stevegasm]

The gaming community has an open mind. I'm pretty sure if it. But the non-gaming community who plays video games is probably much bigger chunk of the pie and worth worrying about for AAA publishers and developers. I have absolutely nothing against homosexuals at all (I'm pretty close to my aunt, her wife, and their family), but if I was banking millions on a game, I wouldn't throw it behind one that stars such a character at this point. I would have trouble doing it with some minorities as a main character (even my own race).

And that is why many people in the video game industry say that indies are the future. An indie developer can get away with such things simply because the financial risk is much lower. It also really shows you the brilliance behind Bioware's character and story design. Make the character any race you want, any gender you want. You can romance a male or female. Come to think of it, I don't recall the character's gender or sexuality to really matter to the story in their games. In Mass Effect, you're just Shepard.

[Maxilian]

He whitewashes over the economic argument that we don't know there isn't a market for it because no one has tried it yet. That completely ignores the numbers that he himself puts out. Is a studio going to invest millions into a game to target 1.75% of the market (with a single gender, single orientation development), or 48.25% of the market?

No, he means mostly that we don't know how the rest of the market will react (the 48.25%), that's the main question

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I mean, Skyrim, Mass Effect and Dragon Age are some of the biggest games out there.. not to mention others. What percent of AAA games should have a gay protagonist/characters?

Is not the same when you have the option to be gay (when in the end it doesn't even do anything in the story), than to have a canon gay protagonist

[Deleted]

No, he means mostly that we don't know how the rest of the market will react (the 48.25%), that's the main question

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Is not the same when you have the option to be gay (when in the end it doesn't even do anything in the story), than to have a canon gay protagonist

well, ok tell me what you think should be done then to make a canon gay charakter? i mean in the most games we play the sexual orientation of the main protagonist doesnt matter unless you want to put some silly stereotypes in the game or make options like bioware does.

i mean what really diffrents straight from gay people in shooting bad guys and rescuing the world? not much unless you build in romances and no one will make a AAA title !only! for a demographic as small as gay people that are in videogames. (not saying gays dont want to play videogames or such but gay people are a small demographic and this gets even smaller the moment you calculate people that dont like videogames out, like in every other demographic)

[Rooflesstoofless]

Does a character need to be obviously homosexual to speak to the homosexual population?

Is a character automatically heterosexual if there is no explicit romancing shown?

Seriously, does this question need to be asked? For the homosexual crowd, if someone wanted to have this badly enough, then they could make a game.

This is just sensationalism at its finest.

I've asked this same question about three times in this thread alone over the past few days and no one is willing to give an answer. There are sooooooo many games out there where the sexual identity of the protagonist never comes up. I'm starting to think the gaymers just want to assume everyone is straight unless its explicitly stated that they are gay.

[Endus]

well, ok tell me what you think should be done then to make a canon gay charakter? i mean in the most games we play the sexual orientation of the main protagonist doesnt matter unless you want to put some silly stereotypes in the game or make options like bioware does.

i mean what really diffrents straight from gay people in shooting bad guys and rescuing the world? not much unless you build in romances and no one will make a AAA title !only! for a demographic as small as gay people that are in videogames. (not saying gays dont want to play videogames or such but gay people are a small demographic and this gets even smaller the moment you calculate people that dont like videogames out, like in every other demographic)

Let's go over the top 5 games in sales for 2013 and show how difficult this would be to implement, shall we?

1> GTA V. There's three protagonists, basically. If one were gay, you'd be covered. All this takes is one of the three guys having a boyfriend rather than a girlfriend.

2> COD: Ghosts. Who plays these games for the single-player? Here, it's irrelevant.

3> FIFA 2014. Chances are, in any sports game, there's players that ARE gay. They may just not be out, and the relationship's irrelevant to the game itself, since it isn't based on them as characters.

4> Pokemon X + Y. I don't think there's any romance at all in pokemon games, though I'm admittedly of a generation that never got into them.

5> AC 4: Black Flag. I think there's plenty of room for an AC game with a gay protagonist, but the finale in this wouldn't play, for reasons I don't want to spoil for this kind of a list. Any of the other AC games, though, that's off the table, and as with #1, it's as simple as having a boyfriend rather than a girlfriend.


Nobody's arguing that every game MUST have a gay protagonist, or even a gay option. Or that it makes sense to bother in every game. But there are certainly cases where it would fit, and there's no real reason to shy away from that. Particularly since writing in games is typically a collective project; bring in a writer who's gay if you want to be sure you capture the internal monologue properly (not that it's necessary to do so, but this avoids hetero writers saying "but I'm not gay, how do I write a character that is?")

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I've asked this same question about three times in this thread alone over the past few days and no one is willing to give an answer. There are sooooooo many games out there where the sexual identity of the protagonist never comes up. I'm starting to think the gaymers just want to assume everyone is straight unless its explicitly stated that they are gay.

It's more that whenever it is explicitly stated, as in Bioshock: Infinite, or AC4, or the GTA games, or so on, it's pretty much without exception a heterosexual relationship.

Again; nobody's saying EVERY game needs a gay protagonist. The question is why aren't there any, if we exclude the choose-your-own-orientation games like the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series. Not a single protagonist in a AAA game who is, according to canon, gay. That's exceptional, and deserves explanation.

[Rooflesstoofless]

i mean what really diffrents straight from gay people in shooting bad guys and rescuing the world?

There isn't a difference...but a certain side of this argument refuses to see that. Some people just really feel the need to drive a wedge of division where there isn't a need for one.

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Again; nobody's saying EVERY game needs a gay protagonist. The question is why aren't there any, if we exclude the choose-your-own-orientation games like the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series. Not a single protagonist in a AAA game who is, according to canon, gay. That's exceptional, and deserves explanation.

The explanation is simple: It isn't going to make the kind of money a AAA studio wants as a return on their investment. The critical mass of people desiring to roll play as a gay person doesn't exist.

You're asking that a company, with the primary intent of making money, flush their profitability down the tubes.

[Deleted]

I once read a post in which it stated that by saying that one is a gay person one isolates themselves but by being gay one does not. I think that is true. In my opinion a main character who is gay should behave just the same as a main character is not (with the obvious differences still being differences) as regardless of sexual orientation the story will probably be roughly the same. If i play through the game and i happen to stumble upon my character being gay then sure he/she can be gay - as long as i don't have it shoved down my throat and have it repeatedly lobbed at my computer screen.

In my opinion it isn't a taboo, lots of games have had the option to be gay ( albiet mainly RPG's as previously said ) but i think the option is a decent way to do it. My fear is that in the effort to make a gay character the not only butcher the character but the entire game. Sexual orientation isn't a big thing in games unless your playing some kind of life simulator. I don't see it being impossible that a character turns out to be gay somewhere along the lines of the story and if the story is good then i can see people playing the game regardless of the characters sexual orientation. However if they butcher the game by making him being gay a giant humongous plot point that everyone should be startled and amazed at instead of incorporating it well people will just flip and then blame it on the character.

P.s - There are a lot more gay characters in games than people think, should check out the WIKI list.

[Trassk]

well, ok tell me what you think should be done then to make a canon gay charakter? i mean in the most games we play the sexual orientation of the main protagonist doesnt matter unless you want to put some silly stereotypes in the game or make options like bioware does.

i mean what really diffrents straight from gay people in shooting bad guys and rescuing the world? not much unless you build in romances and no one will make a AAA title !only! for a demographic as small as gay people that are in videogames. (not saying gays dont want to play videogames or such but gay people are a small demographic and this gets even smaller the moment you calculate people that dont like videogames out, like in every other demographic)

you can make that argument as much as you like. Shooting bad guys, hacking them up with swords, exploring around locations while avoiding monsters, or solving puzles, those are not the aspects of what a character you play as is built upon.

But you'd have to be a major fool to assume thats all a character in a story drvein game is based upon. The bigger question would be, if you are playing an action oriented game with shooting and blowing shit up, and THEN you find out the main character you are playing as if gay later on, why would that sully what the character does in the game for anyone?

The reasonable answer is that it should not, and it should make for an interesting character. But thats not how peoples minds word now is it, because all they will think from then on is 'oh, I'm playing a gay character'.

What matters is being intelligent enough to go beyond that crappy backwards attitude and see the character. As a gay man, I have played countless games where the main character is straight, not just straight off screen, but extremely hetero-hyped in everything he does. Does it bother me that snaked in metal gear is clearly showing the hots for female lead characters? NO, does it bother me that Dante is a bit of a womanizer? NO. Does it bother me that Mario wants to get in peaches piehole? NO, because its just a part of that character and there Heteronormativity (the bias of all heteros believing it should be about them and not gay characters).

Of course I can't blame a lot of straight boys and girls for thinking this way, its a perpetuating ideology even in todays culture that gay characters just aren't cool and can't do cool things. So if they were introduced to a gay hardcore character in gaming, they wouldn't be able to wrap there heads around it.

I present to you one of my favorite fictional characters. Midnighter.

Midnighter is a comic book superhero, best known as a member of the rogue superhero team, The Authority. Created by writer Warren Ellis and artist Bryan Hitch, he first appeared in Stormwatch #4 (vol. 2), before going on to appear in various Authority books and series, and his own eponymous ongoing series. He was created in the archetypical vein of Batman, but unlike Gotham City's protector, Midnighter has superhuman abilities.

Midnighter is notable for being one of the few gay superheroes in print. He's married to fellow Authority member Apollo and both have adopted Jenny Quantum.

In all the comics I've read over the years, there are only two characters who I've considered to be the perfect example of the hardcore superhero, Wolverine, and Midnighter, just because its so dam satisfying to see him kick the living shit out of those who fights against, in the most insane of ways, and yet still goes home to his husband end of the day.

you know all the batshit insane stuff Kratos does in god of war? Tearing off the heads of gods, gutting titans, impaling demi gods on spikes? Well I've seen what kratos has done before when reading the authority comics, because of midnighter, the fact he does stuff like.. well.. THIS, just gives an example of that.

the point is, guys like those who wrote the comic series like the authority did so and didn't give a shit what people thought of it, they just did it, and it worked out as a good series. And thats all that needs to happen, not giving a shit about naysayers, just writing a comic or a book or a game, having gay characters in. If people complain, F**K them, they don't have to read/watch/play it.

[zealo]

Is not the same when you have the option to be gay (when in the end it doesn't even do anything in the story), than to have a canon gay protagonist

That alternative is actually the best way to do it even if you do not like it, since its giving the gay minority what they want without necessarily forcing it down our throats and still catering to heterosexual gamers in the process.

[Derah]

Wait a sec.......... we already have a few Gay protagonists in AAA games.

Shepard can be gay in Mass Effect 3. As can the Warden in Dragon Age, and Hawke in Dragon Age 2. Granted, you can also choose to be straight, but that's besides the point. You do have main characters that are not "off-jokes" in all 3 of those games that are either openly gay, or can be chosen to be gay by the player.

For a more debatable game, there is A LOT of lesbian subtext between Lara and Sam on Tomb Raider 2013 (And the game's lead writer said herself she wouldn't had any problems making Lara gay, which is why the subtext is there, probably to gauge fan reactions)

[MadHyena]

AC 4: Black Flag.

Gay or lesbian protagonists are simply impossible in Assassin's Creed series. The reason is how the Animus works - genetic memory carried by your direct offsprings (your first child, if I remember correctly). No heterosexual sex = no offsprings. On the other hand, a bisexual character could be a workaround...

[Trassk]

That alternative is actually the best way to do it even if you do not like it, since its giving the gay minority what they want without necessarily forcing it down our throats and still catering to heterosexual gamers in the process.

bullcrap. that is a cop out as great as there could be one.

Straight characters are established in games all the time. There isn't an option to turn off there hetero. Why is it such an issue to have a gay canon character in a story driven game?

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Wait a sec.......... we already have a few Gay protagonists in AAA games.

Shepard can be gay in Mass Effect 3. As can the Warden in Dragon Age, and Hawke in Dragon Age 2. Granted, you can also choose to be straight, but that's besides the point. You do have main characters that are not "off-jokes" in all 3 of those games that are either openly gay, or can be chosen to be gay by the player.

For a more debatable game, there is A LOT of lesbian subtext between Lara and Sam on Tomb Raider 2013 (And the game's lead writer said herself she wouldn't had any problems making Lara gay, which is why the subtext is there, probably to gauge fan reactions)

shepard is a start, but the way the story in that game worked make it very convoluted in terms of what your main character was. Tailoring him to being just how you want him is no better then a tailor made mmorpg character. But like say, it was a step, it just made the relationships for both sexes just seem cardboardy.

[Deleted]

Nobody's arguing that every game MUST have a gay protagonist, or even a gay option. Or that it makes sense to bother in every game. But there are certainly cases where it would fit, and there's no real reason to shy away from that. Particularly since writing in games is typically a collective project; bring in a writer who's gay if you want to be sure you capture the internal monologue properly (not that it's necessary to do so, but this avoids hetero writers saying "but I'm not gay, how do I write a character that is?")

It's more that whenever it is explicitly stated, as in Bioshock: Infinite, or AC4, or the GTA games, or so on, it's pretty much without exception a heterosexual relationship.

Again; nobody's saying EVERY game needs a gay protagonist. The question is why aren't there any, if we exclude the choose-your-own-orientation games like the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series. Not a single protagonist in a AAA game who is, according to canon, gay. That's exceptional, and deserves explanation.

i think the point is that well, theoretical debates aside and stuff, its standard to be straight. (not judging if good or bad, god damn...that i even write that here shows how fucked up and sensible this whole thematic is)

and like it or not AAA titles are build to fit as many as possible customers, so lets say some studio goes for the risk and makes an outspoken and dedicated gay protagonist (dont get me into the argument that a lesbian protagonist will most likely be more accepted then male gay protagonist and why this is so wrong) and suddenly mothers dont buy their childs this game because of it and some church idiots protest against you, then it doesnt get sold in whole of russia because they claim its propaganda...lets just say nasty stuff happens.

this is a hugh risk and i dont see any company willing and/or able to take that.

so well unless you change the whole perception of the people and how they react to things i think you will have to settle for the option to be gay as best choise.

[Tastyfish]

I think Ellen has some commentary that you all need to consider, esp the ones who think there is some conversion factor aspect to having to play a gay character.
Gay people are raised among heterosexuals, everywhere heterosexuals. That heterosexuality almost never infulences them to be that way. They remain Gay even with the bombardment of not gay. Why are you so scared?
Playing a gay character is not going to make you gay.

If your sexuality hinges on your video game character choice I honestly think you need to reevaulate why you are so easily infulenced by a game.

Edit: we all joke about how horrible Twilight is, but we are all victims of that style of writing. Bella is written so blandly because the reader is expected to BE Bella. Video games are stale for the same reason. We should shake some shit up with our Main Characters. We should be challenged to hate them at first and have them grow on us.
Fuck eating baked chicken EVERY SINGLE DAY, seriously.
If you want Games to be elevated to art, you have to be ready for art to not be comfortable.

[Trassk]

i think the point is that well, theoretical debates aside and stuff, its standard to be straight. (not judging if good or bad, god damn...that i even write that here shows how fucked up and sensible this whole thematic is)

That would come under the barrier of Heteronormativity.

Definition: Heteronormativity is the cultural bias in favor of opposite-sex relationships of a sexual nature, and against same-sex relationships of a sexual nature. Because the former are viewed as normal and the latter are not, lesbian and gay relationships are subject to a heteronormative bias.

Examples of heteronormativity might include:
The underrepresentation of same-sex couples in advertising and entertainment media.
Laws that actively discriminate against same-sex relationships, such as laws banning same-sex marriage.
Religious bias against same-sex couples.
Heteronormativity, like racism, sexism, and heterosexism, is a bias that can only be eliminated culturally--not legislatively. But from a civil liberties perspective, the government should not participate in heteronormativity by enacting heteronormative laws.

and like it or not AAA titles are build to fit as many as possible customers, so lets say some studio goes for the risk and makes an outspoken and dedicated gay protagonist (dont get me into the argument that a lesbian protagonist will most likely be more accepted then male gay protagonist and why this is so wrong) and suddenly mothers dont buy their childs this game because of it and some church idiots protest against you, then it doesnt get sold in whole of russia because they claim its propaganda...lets just say nasty stuff happens.

this is a hugh risk and i dont see any company willing and/or able to take that.

Comic book companies do this now. Comic book companies have introduced gay characters into there fold in recent years in a far more consistent rate.



Hercules and Wolverine, set in the alternate timeline of X-Treme X-Men, both characters, two of the hardest marvel comic characters, share a relationship together. Now this caused controversy with anti gay idiots, but see marvel figured it might, but didn't care because it was set in an alternative timeline story, not effecting the main marvel comic timeline at all.

Still saying companies shouldn't take risks is backpedaling for the wrong kinds of people.

so well unless you change the whole perception of the people and how they react to things i think you will have to settle for the option to be gay as best choise.

So nevermind any and all gay people in the world because of peoples bigotry.

You know, if you go back 70 years, this character wouldn't be accepted either.



Yeah. In the same leaf of what you are saying, going back decades ago, black characters in such fiction wouldn't have had any standing either, except for made a mockery of:



Its amazing how people glance over this fact and don't learn from history. "Oh but hating on gays isn't the same as hating on blacks cause blacks can be straight".