[WoD] Protection Paladin Megathread

[Deleted]

My point was simply that we don't get the same benefit. I don't think an extra holy power everytime would make sense, but an extra holy power with a 10 second cooldown would even us out in that department (though I would prefer a solution that doesn't involve holy power gen). I mean heck, they could more easily balance rage generation if they just made Warriors not get rage from crits (via enrage). Regardless, it isn't my job to come up with a solution, but merely to point out that what he said ("Paladins get the exact same defensive benefit from Crit that Warriors do.") is factually false.

I'm not so sure that it resetting on every dodge/parry would be that overpowered (assuming they tune damage numbers). Revenge resets on every dodge or parry and generates 20 rage (that's 1/3 of a Shield Block). One holy power is 1/3 of a ShoR. Warriors are getting Sanctity of Battle, so global considerations are moot. Only good argument here is that ShB has three charges and a small cooldown vs ShoR not having that, but Shield Barrier is better than what we have anyhow so it probably balances out just fine.

Personally, I still think CS crits proccing GC would be the best way to make crit attractive to us. Not only would it be a superior design to the current Revenge design for warriors (in the sense that the player is rewarded directly for an action taken, rather than simply having a button light up once in a while through entirely external agency), it would also make our stats synergize in an interesting fashion - in the sense that haste would increase the value of crit by some factor.

In truth, the issue with the two new stats is that unlike haste and mastery, which currently interact in an interesting fashion (haste giving us more EF ticks, thus directly increasing the value of mastery), there is absolutely no interaction between MS, Crit, and any other stat - and it is for this exact reason that they are unbelievably disinteresting. The more I think about it, the more I wish they'd tie GC to CS crits and let, say, MS have a 30% chance to proc a HoPo-generating Holy Wrath.

But then, I'm a sucker for involved and interesting gameplay. If they just want us to go back to being AFK meatshields, by all means, keep the god-fucking-awful new passives.

[Deleted]

I'm not so sure that it resetting on every dodge/parry would be that overpowered (assuming they tune damage numbers).

It's not so much about the generation, but the damage. AS has to be worth casting on a single mob. If they made it so every Parry reset the CD, the cleave component would have to be tuned right down so our AoE didn't just consist of spamming AS and it would feel pathetic.

I think PraisetheSun has the right idea; ideally, a crit from an attack should proc X or do Y. Whatever that is, tied to GC or not. Just something whereby we do something to trigger another thing.
Really it's the same thing from a purely mechanical standpoint; the RNG of critting is no different to the RNG of dodging or parrying to get a proc, but it's just so much more interesting in terms of gamefeel because it *feels* like "I did that" instead of "The RNG did that".

[Kortane]

Having the SoI ticks being moved to a passive and actually being able to use a damage seal without giving up the healing will be nice.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...23127643021312

Not sure about that though.

[Deleted]

Having the SoI ticks being moved to a passive and actually being able to use a damage seal without giving up the healing will be nice.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...23127643021312

Not sure about that though.

I'm not clear, Is it confirmed that SoI healing will be baked in? What's the point of Insight then? Or is that just wishful thinking? :P

Edit: scratch that, it was in the conversation linked. Just me being blind...

@Faytte We're moving the heal-on-hit proc from Seal of Insight to a Prot passive. We'll expect Prot and Ret to use Truth and Rightousness.

Will seals be off the GCD? I don't know if I feel good about having to waste GCDs swapping seals to get HotR... the payoff is not exactly worth it.

Also, this means having to keybind them. I can't remember the last time I used SoR OR SoT because they both fucking suck and there's never enough mobs around to make SoR shine. I thought the pruning was supposed to free up binds, not just add them back in. If it's a choice between having a bind for SoR or a bind for Avenging Wrath then just give me my wings back.

[celinamuna]

Crit from attacks is inherently better because a) multi-target b)haste if from autos

[Deleted]

I'm not clear, Is it confirmed that SoI healing will be baked in? What's the point of Insight then? Or is that just wishful thinking? :P

Edit: scratch that, it was in the conversation linked. Just me being blind...



Will seals be off the GCD? I don't know if I feel good about having to waste GCDs swapping seals to get HotR... the payoff is not exactly worth it.

Also, this means having to keybind them. I can't remember the last time I used SoR OR SoT because they both fucking suck. I thought the pruning was supposed to free up binds, not just add them back in. If it's a choice between having a bind for SoR or a bind for Avenging Wrath then just give me my wings back.

Bolding mine: I seem to recall that weapon damage spells will have their damage computed in a completely different way in WoD, such that raw WDPS plays a significantly smaller role than it does now, and AP a greater one. While CS and HotR will still suck ass compared to the rest of our toolkit by virtue (more like the reverse, really) of their being shared with ret, and thus needing to have scaling coefficients that are not outlandish when coupled with a 2h-wielding spec, one can at the very least hope that they will suck comparatively less ass than they do now.

On the note of button bloat, I can't help but agree. Taking away Wings, an iconic and beloved flavour spell, in the name of ability pruning, only to force us to keybind two buttons we didn't so much as look at in MoP is just bafflingly stupid. I'm not sure I could make equivalently ridiculous design suggestions if I tried my damnedest - but then quite frankly I don't know what I expected from the makers of Shining Sucktector.

[Blizzhoof]

It's not so much about the generation, but the damage. AS has to be worth casting on a single mob. If they made it so every Parry reset the CD, the cleave component would have to be tuned right down so our AoE didn't just consist of spamming AS and it would feel pathetic.

I think PraisetheSun has the right idea; ideally, a crit from an attack should proc X or do Y. Whatever that is, tied to GC or not. Just something whereby we do something to trigger another thing.
Really it's the same thing from a purely mechanical standpoint; the RNG of critting is no different to the RNG of dodging or parrying to get a proc, but it's just so much more interesting in terms of gamefeel because it *feels* like "I did that" instead of "The RNG did that".

Do you not know that Revenge hits 3 targets just like AS? It's almost the same spell except it does less damage and generates their resource. Play a Warrior and you'll see that it wouldn't be that crazy.

[Deleted]

Do you not know that Revenge hits 3 targets just like AS? It's almost the same spell except it does less damage and generates their resource. Play a Warrior and you'll see that it wouldn't be that crazy.

AS will be hitting 5 mobs in WoD. It would be ridiculous and end up nerfed.

[celinamuna]

AS will be hitting 5 mobs in WoD. It would be ridiculous and end up nerfed.

How many fights this expansion have you seen where hitting 5 mobs would boost your dps compared to hitting 3 mobs ?
Personally :
Elegon (Sparks, but #noVeng)
Council (generally burn sand quickly so also not really)
Durumu (only ice walls, and not even sure if them)
IQ (when all doggies come out, until one of them dies so ~20 sec)
LS (ball lightning)
Immerseus (on little puddles,if they're close enough, and adds if they survive long enough to matter)
Protectors (only during sun transition)
Galakras On every 3rd(?) pack
Shamans (until one of the dogs dies)
Spoils (if you get a mogu dog crate, and they survive any of the aoe mechanics)
Thok (only if you're having bats in range)
Garrosh P1 (except it's sort of irrelevant)

Out of those all, it's either for a short periods of a fight, or on something that isn't too relevant in the first place.

[Blizzhoof]

AS will be hitting 5 mobs in WoD. It would be ridiculous and end up nerfed.

Why would that be ridiculous? It will only hit 5 mobs if there are at least 5 mobs up. Keg Smash hits everything and is worth using on a single target. I feel like you aren't capable of thinking about it objectively. I think you are coming from the mindset of "My AS once hit for 2 million!" Again, they can tune numbers, you should be talking about mechanics. I don't see how if Revenge working the way it does is just fine and dandy for Warriors that GC can't work similarly with proper numbers tuning.

[Zol]

If Blizzard doesn't do something with Paladin snap threat, i.e. increase our damage, it's going to be time to roll Monk or Warrior.

[nightfalls]

If Blizzard doesn't do something with Paladin snap threat, i.e. increase our damage, it's going to be time to roll Monk or Warrior.

This is what I was getting at when I was talking about the Seal / Hammer of the Righteous changes (@PraiseTheSun). I'm less worried about the damage aspect mainly because I could care less myself about HotR's piss poor damage (I'd rather it just be baked passive or removed and replaced). I'd be more annoyed if I had to swap seals and incur an extra GCD for snap threat though, as if it's not bad enough; of course that's assuming seal swaps are still on the global.

[Deleted]

Why would that be ridiculous? It will only hit 5 mobs if there are at least 5 mobs up. Keg Smash hits everything and is worth using on a single target. I feel like you aren't capable of thinking about it objectively. I think you are coming from the mindset of "My AS once hit for 2 million!" Again, they can tune numbers, you should be talking about mechanics. I don't see how if Revenge working the way it does is just fine and dandy for Warriors that GC can't work similarly with proper numbers tuning.

Firstly, it would only take a single instance of us solo tanking a huge pile of adds and destroying everyone's damage for them to nerf it. They just took Vengeance away to discourage cheesing for damage. They aren't going to put in a mechanic whereby the more damage you take, the more you do in the form of AS. You can't compare it to Keg Smash because Keg Smash can't reset, and one of the reasons it hits *so* hard relative to the rest of the Monk's toolkit is precisely because it doesn't reset.

Secondly, the damage of AS is tuned around it not having such a high reset chance and a relatively "long" cooldown, whether you like it or not. The moment you start resetting it much more often (even on ST), the damage has to go down somewhere, either on AS itself or another spell, to compensate. That is a FACT. I would rather have a meatier spell and they find another way to make Crit attractive than buffing the value of Parry.

You're saying don't talk numbers but that's the point; AS's mechanics allow it to be a strong hitter. You make it super available, it can't be such a strong hitter anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it here. If they allowed it to still hit hard and reset much more often, even then mechanically, it's better for us not to have an AoE rotation that consists of 1 button and promotes tanking as many mobs as you can to be able to spam it.

[celinamuna]

But gaiz we get +100% cons dmg.
And let's be honest here. Blizzard not understand some class fairly well ? Shocking i tell you, shocking.

[Deleted]

But gaiz we get +100% cons dmg.
And let's be honest here. Blizzard not understand some class fairly well ? Shocking i tell you, shocking.

One can't help but find their continued attempts to make us like avoidance somewhat adorable. Like a stupid cat that keeps dragging in half-eaten birds and rodents - on the one hand, it makes a mess (of our class mechanics and gearing), and on the other hand, it's kind of adorable, because you have to think they mean well.

"Alright, so, you didn't like Avoidance in ToT. Hmmm... We'll make GC not scale with haste any more! Surely that'll make you guys like avoidance."

"No."

"Oooooh-k, so that didn't go according to plan. No avoidance in SoO either. Hmmm... Aha! We'll give them reverse riposte! We'll let their crit convert to parry! Surely they'll like that!"

"No."

"Harumph! They didn't like avoidance in tier 17 either? Hmmmm... Maybe if we..." etc., etc., and so on until the servers shut down one day.

I swear, the only way they'll ever make us even tangentially like avoidance without completely gutting the current class mechanics is by making haste also convert to dodge... never mind the fact that we still wouldn't be stacking it for the avoidance.

[celinamuna]

Patch 7.0
We're adding back in parry and dodge, for prot paladins parry and dodge give twice their rating in haste.
GAIZ YOU CAN BE REAL TANKS NAO.

[Deleted]

One can't help but find their continued attempts to make us like avoidance somewhat adorable.

At this point avoidance stats (and anything tied to them) are just leftovers from a bygone design as far as Paladins are concerned. I honestly don't think there's anything they can do that would make them desirable in the current game model as long as relatively interesting and multi-layered ones such as Haste and Mastery exist.

I don't know how you could make us want them that wouldn't involve just gutting the class until every stat is as un-influential on our performance or flat out making them provide the benefits of some other stat.

[Blizzhoof]

Firstly, it would only take a single instance of us solo tanking a huge pile of adds and destroying everyone's damage for them to nerf it. They just took Vengeance away to discourage cheesing for damage. They aren't going to put in a mechanic whereby the more damage you take, the more you do in the form of AS. You can't compare it to Keg Smash because Keg Smash can't reset, and one of the reasons it hits *so* hard relative to the rest of the Monk's toolkit is precisely because it doesn't reset.

Secondly, the damage of AS is tuned around it not having such a high reset chance and a relatively "long" cooldown, whether you like it or not. The moment you start resetting it much more often (even on ST), the damage has to go down somewhere, either on AS itself or another spell, to compensate. That is a FACT. I would rather have a meatier spell and they find another way to make Crit attractive than buffing the value of Parry.

You're saying don't talk numbers but that's the point; AS's mechanics allow it to be a strong hitter. You make it super available, it can't be such a strong hitter anymore. You can't have your cake and eat it here. If they allowed it to still hit hard and reset much more often, even then mechanically, it's better for us not to have an AoE rotation that consists of 1 button and promotes tanking as many mobs as you can to be able to spam it.

Your whole post translates to exactly what I said about your mindset. All you can think is "My Avenger's Shield hits hard!" I've stated multiple times that they would have to tune to compensate, yet you ignored that and think that I want it to hit just as hard, reset on every avoid, and bounce 5 times. It's obvious that at least on this subject you refuse to actually read over and think about what I'm saying in my posts before you respond. Hopefully this will wake you from your stupor and we can have an intelligent conversation in the future.

To sum up our arguments here:

I think that if GC activated on every avoid, then Avoidance would be a lot more attractive (and thus Crit). I understand that this would necessitate a nerf to it's damage, but it would also help our AoE threat a lot in addition to the other benefits.

You don't want that to happen because you want Avenger's Shield to be our super hard hitting ability and know that if they made the change then the damage would be nerfed quite a bit.

Okay, now that we have those stated (correct me if my interpretation of your argument is wrong), I'd like to address your points. Keep in mind that the goal is for them to make Crit an interesting stat. Also, it seems that they really want Crit to be tied to Parry in some fashion.

First, I think that in tandem with implementing my idea, they should severely increase the damage of Judgment (or CS). This would give us a really hard hitting ability that gives us HoP and can't be reset, and thus would be easy to tune.

Second, you seem to think that they want us to do 75% of a DPSer's damage even on large AoE packs. I contend that that is very unlikely to be a goal of there's due to the fact that it is nearly impossible. For them to have us doing 75% of a DPSer's damage on single target and AoE, almost none of our AoE spells could be in our single target rotation (like most DPSers are tuned now). If we are to keep Consecrate and AS in both of the rotations (or Monk's to keep Keg Smash, Warrior's to keep Revenge and Thunder Clap, Druid's keep Thrash, and DK's keep...do they have any AoE in their single target?) then we will necessarily do much more than 75% of a DPSer's damage on big AoE packs.

Actually, we may not do that much more if they just tune the AoE damage of DPS appropriately since they tend to involve spells that aren't in their single target. However, if we do equal or more damage to big AoE packs then I don't think it will be a large concern as long as we aren't crushing DPS on boss fights.

[nightfalls]

Actually, we may not do that much more if they just tune the AoE damage of DPS appropriately since they tend to involve spells that aren't in their single target. However, if we do equal or more damage to big AoE packs then I don't think it will be a large concern as long as we aren't crushing DPS on boss fights.

Agreed with both statements, tanks doing relatively more AoE damage has generally been fine. Plus it comes with a bonus, makes it easier to hold threat on an entire pack even with DPS possibly single-target focusing the "wrong" mobs (cough).

[Deleted]

I think that if GC activated on every avoid, then Avoidance would be a lot more attractive (and thus Crit). I understand that this would necessitate a nerf to it's damage, but it would also help our AoE threat a lot in addition to the other benefits.

You don't want that to happen because you want Avenger's Shield to be our super hard hitting ability and know that if they made the change then the damage would be nerfed quite a bit.

Then what are you arguing about exactly? You're agreeing with me. It's not that I have a mindset of "it would be OP could never happen". It's that I have a mindset of "I like that it hits hard, and if they made it more available using the current damage spread in our entire kit it would be OP, thus necessitating an appropriate nerf which would water it down relative to the rest of the toolkit." I am well aware they could easily compensate the single target by buffing something (Judgment as per your suggestion) but it still waters down the cool factor of AS.

Do you get that? The mechanics of AS allow it to be a hard nuke. It can't be a hard nuke, and be off cooldown every few seconds. You might make Parry more interesting since it does more, more often, but the cost is that you lose the fun of seeing a large attack once in a while. It's a matter of game-feel. There are other things they can do with Crit (and Parry) than copy and paste what Warriors have.

This is akin to the old "cut it in half, and you can have twice as much" diet joke. In the end, it's the same total but each piece looks and feels smaller.

Second, you seem to think that they want us to do 75% of a DPSer's damage even on large AoE packs.

Show me where I said this. I've already disputed this with someone else who thought we wouldn't be able to AoE anymore. In all likelihood we'll be fairly strong on 2-3(maybe 4) mob cleave, better than DPS who don't swap to their AoE rotations on account of us having a lot of AoE in our usual spells. We'll probably then fall behind again on large amounts of mobs when most of the DPS are using AoE.

In this case I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think giving us 100% reset on Parry is the right direction, and you evidently want it even if it means having a much "flatter" (in terms of damage per spell) spread across the kit. Personally I don't think it would do enough to make us take Crit and only serve as homogenization between the classes.