[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Talen]

Empowered Seals/Judgements should be baseline.

No...it shouldn't. It didn't work before, and Blizzard has given no indication they've addressed the issues wrt clunkiness/balance that made them get rid of the old system.

This is an idea that didn't work before, Blizzards actively getting rid of stance dancing for warriors, ES shows no sign of being interesting or fixed in this incarnation. It should just be dropped instead of being the button pressing exercise it promsies to be.

Serpahim? By and large, its Inqusition that uses 5 HP instead of 3. Its potentially more interesting in that its shorter duration offers potential in timing it to stack with other abilities but overall, still an ability that buffs you every 30s . Possibly due a rework with the removal of Readiness.

Final Verdict? Blandness personified. TV does extra damage. Shouldn't this be a ret passive? Or perk? or whatever Blizzard wants to call the passive level up abilities?

EJL

[Fredzilla]

I don't have it but I think Anaxie linked it a while ago.

I know celestalon tweeted about it awhile ago, I believe in response to dakeshi, but he didn't seem sure at the time which procced which or proced off of which. I have no memories of a concrete answer regarding what of our damage sources procs MS and what MS might proc for us, which is important. If an MS CS or whatever doesn't proc mastery OR seals, there's no way it can be crit unless you get like 5x the chance to MS compared to crit.

[Lyese]

So, they gave up and put out a new Versatility stat? That's just....wow...

The sheer laziness of this stat amuses me. Rather than trying to quantify the effect of various secondaries, they add one that's just a flat out increase.

[Fredzilla]

Well readiness had plenty of its own problems. What would be the point of it in raids if you can't get another use of AW? It was an all-or-nothing stat in many ways, which isn't particularly interesting either. They said they don't want breakpoints and readiness would have a different breakpoint for every fight, which isn't good.

[Lyese]

I agree with that, but it seems they just threw their hands in the air and said, "Well, we need another secondary now. Let's give 'em this!" Kinda like the alpha notes with our seals.

[Deleted]

At this point I would be perfectly happy for them removing Seraphim after the cancellation of Readiness and bringing back Inquisition as a talent choice. Sure the percentage of holy dmg increase would likely have to be modified (meaning reduced) but better than all the other choices that we currently have in our craptastic T100 row Q.Q

[Camaris]

No...it shouldn't. It didn't work before, and Blizzard has given no indication they've addressed the issues wrt clunkiness/balance that made them get rid of the old system.

This is an idea that didn't work before, Blizzards actively getting rid of stance dancing for warriors, ES shows no sign of being interesting or fixed in this incarnation. It should just be dropped instead of being the button pressing exercise it promsies to be.

Serpahim? By and large, its Inqusition that uses 5 HP instead of 3. Its potentially more interesting in that its shorter duration offers potential in timing it to stack with other abilities but overall, still an ability that buffs you every 30s . Possibly due a rework with the removal of Readiness.

Final Verdict? Blandness personified. TV does extra damage. Shouldn't this be a ret passive? Or perk? or whatever Blizzard wants to call the passive level up abilities?

EJL

I should have been more specific. By Empowered Seals being baseline, I meant our seals should have effects of the magnitude granted by the talent, e.g. Seal of Truth should apply Censure stacking up to five times and give +15% Attack Power, no Judgement necessary, effects switching immediately to those of a new Seal when changed. I agree with you that seal twisting is the embodiment of clunk and have no desire for it to return, but at the same time, seals should be more than very mild passives we sit in 24/7 based on spec. Probably Righteousness is the only Empowered Seal design that would need tweaking with regards to intent as well as the magnitude of the buff, but I wouldn't mind seeing Insight having a Battle Healer type effect attached to it, partially in hopes of eventually seeing Holy get something similar to Fistweaving added to it in the future (we could call it Hammerweaving ;-) ).

I disagree that Seraphim is comparable to Inquisition. Inquisition is a maintenance buff affecting everything we do. Seraphim would be closer in design to the old Unbreakable Spirit - essentially a very clunky wording/mechanic for what ultimately amounts to a cooldown reduction. There's a reason UBS was reworded and streamlined.

We're in full agreement on Final Verdict.

[shoeboy4]

just got a reply from celestalon about seal interaction and multistrike and seraphim

@JasonShoeboy4 Seal damage can Multistrike. Seraphim remains as is, except swap "Readiness" for "Versatility".

[Kelemar]

The post is a bit unrelated, but I thought maybe there are a few interested.

So, Alpha is apparently up, and Lady Liadrin was seen (the Matriarch of the Blood Knights). She is now wearing a recolor of the Paladin T8 Aegis Battlegear and the one-hand version of Quel'Delar.

There are no gloves of the set available to the players yet, though.

Here's the item-set:
http://wowhead.com/transmog-set=428

What Liadrin's wearing:
http://wowhead.com/compare?items=451...49:50047;46155.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

just got a reply from celestalon about seal interaction and multistrike and seraphim

@JasonShoeboy4 Seal damage can Multistrike. Seraphim remains as is, except swap "Readiness" for "Versatility".

Well that's a big shot to seraphim tbh... can still be fun with high multistrike rating and burst out damage equal to 60 templar's verdicts in 8-9sec

[Maegor]

Really feel like the seraph and readiness combination was/is being overblown.

[Talen]

I agree with you that seal twisting is the embodiment of clunk and have no desire for it to return, but at the same time, seals should be more than very mild passives we sit in 24/7 based on spec.

Seals would work as a Stance mechanic of some sort. But yes, they do need some work, some focus. However, in a game where hybridism is downplayed, they have no real use. SoT and SOI could be Strikes, SoR simply removed and used to buff DS and HotR and SOJ simply added into Exorcism or something.

There are ways to make them work, but not the way Blizzard is going.

I disagree that Seraphim is comparable to Inquisition. Inquisition is a maintenance buff affecting everything we do. Seraphim would be closer in design to the old Unbreakable Spirit - essentially a very clunky wording/mechanic for what ultimately amounts to a cooldown reduction. There's a reason UBS was reworded and streamlined.

Inq is a 3HP buff that you spammed every 30s in order to get a 30s buff that increased your effectiveness. Seraphim is a 5HP buff that you'll probably spam every 30s in order to get a 10s buff that'll increase your effectiveness. Thanks to its limited duration, there is some potential there to stack with major CDs to boost them but you'll still want it up an active as often as possible especially since Readiness is gone. Now its just gonna boost Versatlity (and thus damage) even more.

Why is it not like Inq?

3HP vs 5HP
10s vs 30s duration
30s CD vs 30s CD .
Both act to buff damage

There is still time for it to change, but overall? Inq wasn't popular and this is Inq.

EJL

[nyc81991]

Well that's a big shot to seraphim tbh... can still be fun with high multistrike rating and burst out damage equal to 60 templar's verdicts in 8-9sec

If seraphim could do anything close to that kind of burst it will be nerfed "into the ground" along with every other ability we have for safe measure.

Losing Readiness on Seraphim does remove a good amount of power from it. I really don't see the 5 holy power cost being worth it now. Not when you can spec into Final Verdict and just hit harder in general.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If seraphim could do anything close to that kind of burst it will be nerfed "into the ground" along with every other ability we have for safe measure.

Losing Readiness on Seraphim does remove a good amount of power from it. I really don't see the 5 holy power cost being worth it now. Not when you can spec into Final Verdict and just hit harder in general.

I wonder if they'll redesign Seraphim to something else. Probably should. I'm choosing Final Verdict regardless.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I wonder if they'll redesign Seraphim to something else. Probably should. I'm choosing Final Verdict regardless.

I'm choosing whatever is the best for the situation I'm in, I just hope that it's not by default going to be the horribly boring talent that forces us to ignore AoE 100% unless there's like 8 targets that we can hit...

[anaxie]

New ret talent inc. If they keep seraph without readiness though. LOLDEADTALENT

[ruiizu]

New ret talent inc. If they keep seraph without readiness though. LOLDEADTALENT

Hopefully they'll completely scrap seal juggling but still keep something in the spirit of Empowered Seals/Judgments. There are a couple of ways to make it more interesting to be sure.

Seraph could definitely stand to do something totally different. Considering two talents effectively boost Judgment and Templar's Verdict, maybe the 3rd talent could be a new HoPow generator, such as Zeal (multi-hit short CD generator, could generate 3 HoPow or something different). I don't think another CD or passive buff is something we really need or want. What else could they do, though?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Another spell/ability that doesn't replace something. Yeah I doubt it'll happen but that's my theory.

[anaxie]

I would rather all the talents don't fulfill the same function. Our main DPS tier is pretty veratile. HA has a strong place, SW has a strong place, and DP has it's place. That entire tier just works. This is something I'd like to see from our T100 tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Despite HA being overall Meh for MoP mainly due to T14 Tier and T16 Eye trinket. HA has had a strong place for the entirety in PvP and thus fulfills it's function and isn't stale.

- - - Updated - - -

Sooooo perhaps? FV could either be passive or Chance 50% on CS. One Tier is a dynamic seal that works with Censure and adds to the actual Seal twist gameplay in a non terrible fashion. Another could become DS free procs thus keeping DP and DS strong in the rotational builds AS needed.

- - - Updated - - -

Aka one tier could be more on demand AoE
One could be the simple passive FV
One could be a far better designed seal twisting concepts that "Gasp" has the emphasis on Seal power and interaction instead of putting up a buff.

In addition CS should just become 3 seconds and Seal of Rightiousness should get a complete gut and overhaul to become similar to how well Seal of Command used to work. Tie more of our sustained within Seal of Truth and Censure.

[ruiizu]

I would rather all the talents don't fulfill the same function. Our main DPS tier is pretty veratile. HA has a strong place, SW has a strong place, and DP has it's place. That entire tier just works. This is something I'd like to see from our T100 tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Despite HA being overall Meh for MoP mainly due to T14 Tier and T16 Eye trinket. HA has had a strong place for the entirety in PvP and thus fulfills it's function and isn't stale.

- - - Updated - - -

Sooooo perhaps? FV could either be passive or Chance 50% on CS. One Tier is a dynamic seal that works with Censure and adds to the actual Seal twist gameplay in a non terrible fashion. Another could become DS free procs thus keeping DP and DS strong in the rotational builds AS needed.

- - - Updated - - -

Aka one tier could be more on demand AoE
One could be the simple passive FV
One could be a far better designed seal twisting concepts that "Gasp" has the emphasis on Seal power and interaction instead of putting up a buff.

In addition CS should just become 3 seconds and Seal of Rightiousness should get a complete gut and overhaul to become similar to how well Seal of Command used to work. Tie more of our sustained within Seal of Truth and Censure.

At this point Seal of Righteousness really doesn't seem necessary at all. Combined with the fact that it doesn't even effect Exorcism or Judgment, might as well just have Hammer of the Righteous and Divine Storm do the extra damage. I liked Seal of Command when they had that strange chaining effect, but not sure if it was really good gameplay overall.

I don't think Seal twisting in any fashion should ever return, imo. I can see a talent that makes Seals interact with our abilities in stronger or more interesting ways (though one certainly could argue this would be better just being part of the basic Seal system), but the general phrase "Seal twisting" just returns to an era where the lack of abilities effectively made it sometimes stronger to just rotate between buffs to irk out a tiny bit of extra damage. It's bad design and barring some cool suggestions on what a "far better designed seal twisting concept" actually means, I hope they just don't do it.

PS: I actually hate having talents where 1 is 100% AE and the other is 100% single target. It's why I always felt Execution Sentence should "explode" on the final tick (like the tooltip even would appear to suggest with a 'burst'), and that Light's Hammer should scale damage up on a single/fewer targets.