[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Lumineus]

As long as it costs 5 holy power to use, it doesn't matter what its function is. It would have to make you into a god for those ten seconds to make up for it. I don't agree that Final Verdict is broken in any case. They overnerfed base TV (even in Live, where it should do considerably more damage than quasi-spammable Obliterate and Slam, come on) that's the only reason it looks so good by comparison.

[ruiizu]

As long as it costs 5 holy power to use, it doesn't matter what its function is. It would have to make you into a god for those ten seconds to make up for it. I don't agree that Final Verdict is broken in any case. They overnerfed base TV (even in Live, where it should do considerably more damage than quasi-spammable Obliterate and Slam, come on) that's the only reason it looks so good by comparison.

I wish that the combat log didn't display mastery damage separate, because Templar's Verdict and the like would appear to hit considerably harder if so. But we'd also gain a lot more per-hit damage if Censure didn't exist, too.

It appears like overall, the level 100 talents are meant to be a gigantic DPS boost overall. 30% to all stats is pretty considerable considering the combination of all the stats is multiplicative, not additive, to damage. We don't yet know if 5 Holy Power is a DPS loss because the math just isn't there, but we do know that 5 holy power is not a fun cost, regardless of how much damage it gives. It could still work, there's no math out yet to back it up.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Again people are judging balance of power based on current alpha numbers (or even the 2 month old alpha patch they're playing on streams...)
Just wait until BETA is up and running and we have more than ~40 streamers playing the game... The alpha patch they're playing have DK tanks and Druid healers soloing 5mans for crying out loud, just ignore numbers- they WILL be looked at.

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It appears like overall, the level 100 talents are meant to be a gigantic DPS boost overall. 30% to all stats is pretty considerable considering the combination of all the stats is multiplicative, not additive, to damage. We don't yet know if 5 Holy Power is a DPS loss because the math just isn't there, but we do know that 5 holy power is not a fun cost, regardless of how much damage it gives. It could still work, there's no math out yet to back it up.

Exactly, people are throwing out numbers and "math" like they were 4 months into the future and did all the class balancing themselves and had it figured out...

[Reghame]

people are also forgetting that its not just a 5 HP cost, its a 5 HP cost in exchange of a holy TV or a 15% AP buffed TV as well.

thats the big issue with the talent as it stands. How do you think it can be an acceptable talent if it's cost might not even be warrented use WITHOUT ANY OTHER 100 TALENT OPTION.

If seraph is not intended to be used off CD, then its not strong enough to even compete with a base spell rotation, not even one thats buffed by it's competitors.

then because it IS a cooldown, we have the issue of if it is TOO strong when it is used for pvp reasons.

It just flat out cannot work in any standing in my opinion, no matter what the numbers are. Its base is flawed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Depends on how numbers work maybe. Stat squishs/scaling being redone puts that in mind that and PVP isn't the sole focus either.

[Reghame]

You cant make a space goat drink from a lake if it's head has been cut off and incinerated. Thats what they are trying to do with our L100 talents

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Depends on how numbers work maybe. Stat squishs/scaling being redone puts that in mind that and PVP isn't the sole focus either.

you can name maybe 3-4 times where our nerfs were not pvp related. i can name possibly over 20 when it was.

It may not look to you that pvp is a big issue when dealing with ret, but in reality, it has everything to do with ret's balance. (almost anyway)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I never said it wasn't an issue but we an't just look at PVP first and freak out.

[Lumineus]

I wish that the combat log didn't display mastery damage separate, because Templar's Verdict and the like would appear to hit considerably harder if so.

Hand of Light damage is not free. Opportunity Strikes is competitive, despite what Warriors would have you believe. 2H Frost mastery maybe not so much, but then with DW you get into Frost Strike which is so spammable and scales so well they ignore Oblit and spend their UH runes on a virtually useless disease.

The alpha patch they're playing have DK tanks and Druid healers soloing 5mans for crying out loud, just ignore numbers

You should expect this; the launch dungeons will probably be tuned no harder than a heroic scenario. Jade Temple and Stormstout Brewery were the same way; the Twilight 5-mans from the previous expansion were tuned higher. It's not like Cata's were much different either, in terms of mob damage compared to late Wrath instances, it's just that the mechanics of bosses and even some trash were not generally solo-friendly.

Also just because they're still calling it alpha doesn't really mean a lot, so "ignore numbers" at thine own peril. By this point I would expect development to be considerably further along than MoP's was at beta initially. And even if it was actually called beta, they rarely listen on matters of tuning by that point because they're rushing to test raid boss encounters and haphazardly apply across-the-board nerfs when their pet sponsored Euro guilds clear too fast or in too few attempts. That's why they keep launching expansion after expansion with DPS barely being able to compete with tanks (and then attempting to explain this by tanks attacking sooner, LOL!) and Paladins barely functional as a class.

[ruiizu]

Hand of Light damage is not free. Opportunity Strikes is competitive, despite what Warriors would have you believe. 2H Frost mastery maybe not so much, but then with DW you get into Frost Strike which is so spammable and scales so well they ignore Oblit and spend their UH runes on a virtually useless disease.

I'm sorry if I sound like a dummy here, but I'm not really clear what you mean when you say Hand of Light damage is not free. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, if you could clarify for me please.

What I was saying before was basically that I hate it when the default floating combat text (which I prefer to addon combat texts for my own damage) doesn't combine damage from hits, making it a spam of very small numbers. I'd rather see my Templar's Verdict damage, Hand of Light, and Seal of Truth damage show up as a single number, because it all happens in a single instance of attack. They're all separate rolls based on different factors, but ultimately it's still just one hit. They can be separate in the combat log, but the floating log I'd like to see them as just one hit.

Sorry if it was unclear what I was talking about.

[Lumineus]

It's not free because you have to obtain large amounts of mastery rating. So saying that if you rolled Hand of Light into TV, with your ninety percent Mastery, it hits way harder than Oblit or Slam, doesn't mean anything. Other classes have Masteries too.

[rad586]

Making TV's, HoL's and SoT's damage show up as a single number in floating combat text while showing up as 3 different sources in combat log would require additional coding which is way more complex than you think.
Currently it just takes numbers from combat log and shows them in real time on the target.

It would require much work, which I preffer them to put into something else.

[Vintersol]

Making TV's, HoL's and SoT's damage show up as a single number in floating combat text while showing up as 3 different sources in combat log would require additional coding which is way more complex than you think.
Currently it just takes numbers from combat log and shows them in real time on the target.

It would require much work, which I preffer them to put into something else.

I'm working as a software developer and i can tell you, putting 3 different numbers into one output is one of the easiest thing you can do.

[rad586]

I'm working as a software developer and i can tell you, putting 3 different numbers into one output is one of the easiest thing you can do.

Might be, but try implementing something like that into a monstrosity of a code which is current day WoW without breaking something else. Best case scenario of messing up would be numbers not showing. Imagine the uproar when numbers showing would not match damage done.

[Vintersol]

Things like that working in encapsulated methods, so it's not possible to mess things up. I see more a problem to put them together based on the current mechanic. Mastery damage is put out after an ability hits, there is a delay between these two actions because the first one requires the calculation based on enemy defensive stats (and maybe cooldowns of active). after that mastery damage is calculated based on the resulting damage of the first action.

[Puzzony]

Off-topic a bit, but not really: Am i the only one who think that Multistrike/Crit could possibly pull ahead of Mastery with Empowered seals? Autoattack is already a big chunk of our dps, and if we add another 30% attack speed to it, it could mean better result with crit/ms than if we stack mastery for the other skills.
Any thoughts about this?



Update offtopic#2: i have found a ret paladin gameplay video, enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2BLq8Dalhg
(On the video our skills hits like wet noodle compared to an arms warrior at the same stage 3.2k hammer of wrath vs 8k execute for example)

[Morally Grey Storm]

Off-topic a bit, but not really: Am i the only one who think that Multistrike/Crit could possibly pull ahead of Mastery with Empowered seals? Autoattack is already a big chunk of our dps, and if we add another 30% attack speed to it, it could mean better result with crit/ms than if we stack mastery for the other skills.
Any thoughts about this?



Update offtopic#2: i have found a ret paladin gameplay video, enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2BLq8Dalhg
(On the video our skills hits like wet noodle compared to an arms warrior at the same stage 3.2k hammer of wrath vs 8k execute for example)

Numbers are easily fixable, nothing to worry about, sure as sure.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Numbers are easily fixable, nothing to worry about, sure as sure.

Yeah, you can't even level beyond 92 in Alpha at this moment in time. The numbers pass is a way off yet; all they care about right now is getting mechanics working.

[Puzzony]

Numbers are easily fixable, nothing to worry about, sure as sure.

We were told that before cata, before mop... And we can see the results

[Morally Grey Storm]

We were told that before cata, before mop... And we can see the results

Stay positive!
It's not even beta yet!
You can't judge future by past!

[ruiizu]

Might be, but try implementing something like that into a monstrosity of a code which is current day WoW without breaking something else. Best case scenario of messing up would be numbers not showing. Imagine the uproar when numbers showing would not match damage done.

It's actually very possible to combine numbers using Add-ons already. I just prefer Blizzard's default floating combat text "look," overall. On my Enhancement Shaman, there are options to combine Windfury damage, among other things. In this case I suppose the easiest "personal" solution would be to just tweak an addon to make it look identical to default text numbers and movement behavior for crits, etc. I just like it when the stock UI works for things.