Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[rebecca191]

I never added them to "my" camp. My point was that Blizzard devs are taking artistic license, and so long as sub numbers aren't plummeting it's probably gonna stay the way it is.

- - - Updated - - -



"Too close to launch" you mean like every Q1 report they've ever done, ever? Cata saw a 600k drop in the first quarter.

The 600k drop was in Q1 2011 (launched Q4 2010). There is no Q1 2015 report yet. There was no loss from Cata launch to the end of Q4 report because it was TOO SOON. So the fact that WoD didn't lose between release and the end of Q4 14 means nothing. It was like a month.

[MoanaLisa]

Flight is not that big of a deal because largely this expansion has had little content to travel too. For the first time since 2004 I literally have no other friends playing wow. It is kind of weird.

For my crew of friends, which was sizable, it was a lack of content that forced everyone their separate ways.

I blame it on no flying but they tell me to shut it. It was the absence of relevant content. Leveling quests and two raids just not enough in WoD.

I still think it was the lack of flying though.

Yeah, we're having an interesting conversation about that right now in the 'problem with raiding' thread. I disagree with you about flying but will certainly acknowledge--as I always have--that removing flying was a part of it. And the way they removed flying and have refused to talk about it since other than to say "We'll see" as if we're all 12-year-olds being talked to by parental units is some more.

Lack of things to do though is a bigger problem for most people. Even if they could fly they wouldn't have anything much to fly to as many others have pointed out.

[Deleted]

You can't add a neutral party to your side and claim majority.

As you've seen, he can. Sure it doesn't make much sense and is a pretty ridiculous thing to do, but he still can and in fact did. Nothing exactly new either. Go through this thread and read some of his other posts, it's the way he argues in general. Then again him and Moana Lisa taking MMO-Champion polls, a side filled to the brim with the pseudo hardcore crowd and Blizzard apologists as an indicator for what the community thinks and wants while being fast to dismiss and handwave away anything going on on the actual WoW forums as "a tiny minority" should be telling enough.

The truth is, they constantly move the goal post, change the "rules" to suit themselves even contradicting stuff they themselves said previously whenever it helps their cause and usually engage in logical fallacy and claims they slam others for.

[Glorious Leader]

The truth is, they constantly move the goal post, change the "rules" to suit themselves even contradicting stuff they themselves said previously whenever it helps their cause and usually engage in logical fallacy and claims they slam others for.

I believe the word is sophistry and yes the Internet is replete with it. Someone should do a study.

[Cthulhu 2020]

As you've seen, he can. Sure it doesn't make much sense and is a pretty ridiculous thing to do, but he still can and in fact did. Nothing exactly new either. Go through this thread and read some of his other posts, it's the way he argues in general. Then again him and Moana Lisa taking MMO-Champion polls, a side filled to the brim with the pseudo hardcore crowd and Blizzard apologists as an indicator for what the community thinks and wants while being fast to dismiss and handwave away anything going on on the actual WoW forums as "a tiny minority" should be telling enough.

The truth is, they constantly move the goal post, change the "rules" to suit themselves even contradicting stuff they themselves said previously whenever it helps their cause and usually engage in logical fallacy and claims they slam others for.

He says without a hint of irony, convincing himself he hasn't done any of those things.

We've directly quoted Blizzard and then were told that we/Blizzard were wrong about what they said, as if Blizzard didn't even know their own game. It seems you also missed my point, which was as long as sub numbers aren't suffering, those who don't care and those who like not flying remaining in the majority are what's going to continue to influence design decision. But you apparently don't like that message, so you're attacking the messenger since you know you can't refute the message. Apparently people who have quit also have nothing better to do than to come onto WoW forums and call those who still enjoy the game fanboys and white knights.

But you know, you can't help but lube up for the chance to shove fallacy claims into everything I say when they aren't. You're not giving a good argument when all you do is bleat "fallacy" over and over again.

[Deleted]

Seeing who accuses me of such things I can't help but laugh.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I left this thread long ago because people can't seem to have a conversation without resorting to insults. I made an independent comment a few pages back about how I didn't believe we'd see flying in expansions unless sub numbers dipped rapidly because they wanted to design without flight. That cued the pro-flight crowd to dog pile on me. Later, and now, they're patting each other on the back over how awesome each other's argument is and how awful the other guy is. I treat people the way I am treated. I try to entertain any argument, but anything I say is insulted within a couple of replies, rather than being honestly responded to. So I respond to them in kind. There's more hostility in this thread than any of the Off Topic threads including religion and politic threads. It's no wonder that so many infractions are handed out. It's deplorable behavior.

I can't really recall the last time I whipped out "ERMAGERD you committed a fallacy!" If there's a fallacy, I ignore that part of the post. If the entire post is a fallacy, I ignore them and tell them to come back when they can actually address the argument I've made. Sometimes they genuinely attempt to address my argument, other times they just strut around like they've won, like the pigeon playing chess, which promptly gets an eyeroll.

It's funny that I'm saying this, but Superman/Walter despite his repeated bans was one of the more engaging posters on here. He actually approached anyone willing to debate him in kind, and his infractions were due to responding to hostility.

Most of the rest is just one giant circle jerk of opinions and calling the other guy a penis like they're the visiting sports team.

[bryroo]

Blizzard's given reasons for removing flight don't add up. In that they are right.

We can assume they have all kinds of unspoken justifications because they aren't openly communicating about it. When a party won't communicate further with you you can only debate with the points they have given previously.

I don't think the removal of flight has benefited the game but I gave the expansion a chance anyway.

At this point I'm more upset with how the removal has been communicated. In all honesty if Blizzard really believed that No flight was the best direction for the game they'd grow a pair and say so instead of wishy-washy 'we might add it, we might not' even MONTHS into the expansion. They don't think it's what's best for the expansion. They just want to slow don't content consumption as long as possible and lose as few subscriptions in the process.

A developer that respected it's players or had any conviction would've made their decision clear a long time ago.

[Deleted]

I don't have anywhere to fly to in Draenor anyway.

Let it go... Let it go... I can't look at this tread anymore!

+ where will you fly? To your mine and then herb garden?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Blizzard's given reasons for removing flight don't add up. In that they are right.

We can assume they have all kinds of unspoken justifications because they aren't openly communicating about it. When a party won't communicate further with you you can only debate with the points they have given previously.

I don't think the removal of flight has benefited the game but I gave the expansion a chance anyway.

At this point I'm more upset with how the removal has been communicated. In all honesty if Blizzard really believed that No flight was the best direction for the game they'd grow a pair and say so instead of wishy-washy 'we might add it, we might not' even MONTHS into the expansion. They don't think it's what's best for the expansion. They just want to slow don't content consumption as long as possible and lose as few subscriptions in the process.

A developer that respected it's players or had any conviction would've made their decision clear a long time ago.

There's a certain pitfall to giving reasons and internal debating, announcing "plans" or intent before a patch hits the PTR, and announcing anything for sure months before that decision can even be made. The indecision on flight followed a period of "You'll be able to earn flight" "Well no flight through the entire expansion" "We'll add in 6.1" "We're not adding it until further notice". A stance of "we're gonna add it when it seems to fit or when enough people quit stating "no flying" as the reason in their little quitting survey" seems reasonable given the shit storm with the back and forth with the decisiveness.

@ Moana's post earlier, someone actually can deduce how many people quit for what reasons. That's Blizzard. They keep track of why people quit. It's why a lot of changes are made in the first place. "My account got hacked" being a huge cause was what prompted authenticators and more account security. Authenticators are actually sold at a loss, because ultimately less people quitting means more revenue in the long run. There were lots of other poll options, as well as an open section where you could write in why you quit. I'd be surprised if "no flying" wasn't a poll option in why someone quit.

[bryroo]

There's a certain pitfall to giving reasons and internal debating, announcing "plans" or intent before a patch hits the PTR, and announcing anything for sure months before that decision can even be made. The indecision on flight followed a period of "You'll be able to earn flight" "Well no flight through the entire expansion" "We'll add in 6.1" "We're not adding it until further notice". A stance of "we're gonna add it when it seems to fit or when enough people quit stating "no flying" as the reason in their little quitting survey" seems reasonable given the shit storm with the back and forth with the decisiveness.

No. There isn't a middle ground to 'we're doing this because we feel it's best for the game' and 'we're going based on feedback' you either made a major decision on the game because you felt it was the best way to go or you let the players decide in an honest way.

Waffling every few weeks means they never believed it was the right direction to go means they're just fucking around.

Are you honestly telling me they're willing to trivialize all of those amazing encounters they designed with no flight in mind just because the player feefback finally changed their mind?

And like I said before, being clear with their intentions would show they at least have some conviction and respect. They don't.

[Cthulhu 2020]

No. There isn't a middle ground to 'we're doing this because we feel it's best for the game' and 'we're going based on feedback' you either made a major decision on the game because you felt it was the best way to go or you let the players decide in an honest way.

Waffling every few weeks means they never believed it was the right direction to go means they're just fucking around.

Are you honestly telling me they're willing to trivialize all of those amazing encounters they designed with no flight in mind just because the player feefback finally changed their mind?

And like I said before, being clear with their intentions would show they at least have some conviction and respect. They don't.

Actually, it's clear that developers were confused as to what was actually happening. That tends to happen when you have meetings and throw a bunch of ideas out there. Ghostcrawler WAS the PR dev who consolidated everything and announced 95% of the design decisions, and he didn't give anything away too early before it was definitive, and he didn't mess around. When he left, that organization left, and they're trying to get it back, which they seem to have mostly done.

Yes, the proper direction was to give a noncommittal answer to flying and then say "We'll look at the player reaction and feedback", because that way there are no expectations and let downs. Yes, they fucked up by giving committed answers in the first place. If you're trying to figure out whether to stay subbed or not, flying likely won't exist in any current content for a long time. If flying comes to Draenor, it won't be in Tanaan, but will be in other zones.

[MoanaLisa]

@ Moana's post earlier, someone actually can deduce how many people quit for what reasons. That's Blizzard. They keep track of why people quit. It's why a lot of changes are made in the first place. "My account got hacked" being a huge cause was what prompted authenticators and more account security. Authenticators are actually sold at a loss, because ultimately less people quitting means more revenue in the long run. There were lots of other poll options, as well as an open section where you could write in why you quit. I'd be surprised if "no flying" wasn't a poll option in why someone quit.

Fair point. I meant no one here but didn't say that.

While I'm at it, I'll also say that for me flying/no-flying is a mixed thing. It's not at all impossible to like and miss flying while at the same time realize that it hasn't been nearly the problem in Draenor that I originally thought it would be. I loathe the way they've managed the change starting with the flying mount in the CE and their inability to say what they are going to do although it's clear to me, if no one else, what they want to do.

Not everything is a binary proposition: A-B, Yes-No, Black-White. After several months of this, I'm fine flying in the rest of Azeroth and don't overly miss it in Draenor. Subjective is as subjective does.

The game has problems. Lack of flying isn't the biggest one at the moment. I'm not working on Pandaria reputations at the moment because I'm so overrun with things to do in Draenor that I can't decide what to do first.

- - - Updated - - -

Waffling every few weeks means they never believed it was the right direction to go means they're just fucking around.

Or they had no idea how it would affect business and wanted to leave themselves an out. Or they don't completely agree with one another on the subject like many here although I would guess they are a lot more polite about it. Basically I agree though: It's past time to weigh in on it and get it over with one way or another. Being cautious is one thing; being cautious to the point where you appear to be paralyzed is another.

[Djuntas]

I hope they change that inn 6.2

I recently started WOD, we'll 92 level now...

I miss flying already. Just thinking about not having it on max level is crap.

[Deleted]

Ghostcrawler WAS the PR dev who consolidated everything and announced 95% of the design decisions, and he didn't give anything away too early before it was definitive, and he didn't mess around.

Well, he once made that mistake. About the "big new feature coming soon". At the end i believe he talked about mentoring / timewalker those days. But as the devs didnt find a solution for a proper reward, they did not put it in up to now.

Still Greg Street announced it indirectly, and then the "big new feature" wasnt implemented, and people flamed him for that.

Yes, the proper direction was to give a noncommittal answer to flying and then say "We'll look at the player reaction and feedback", because that way there are no expectations and let downs. Yes, they fucked up by giving committed answers in the first place. If you're trying to figure out whether to stay subbed or not, flying likely won't exist in any current content for a long time. If flying comes to Draenor, it won't be in Tanaan, but will be in other zones.

Well, its getting annoying, that blizzard is that undecided. The topic just is annoying, as everything got said over and over, and as every argument has been talked about and every idea has been brought up. Both the official and fan page forums like this have a permanent ongoing discussion which circles around the same topic over and over, and which distracts from other problems which would have to be solved as well.

I think blizzard should decide. Soon.

[Azrile]

I'm talking about this specific topic. I simply do not believe that a reasonable human being can find the act of flying in WoW "fun" for more than a few minutes. It's literally moving from point A to point B by pressing a single key. Mechanically speaking it is the equivalent of walking. It just so happens you can do it in the air.

I am fairly anti-flying (for new content), but come on, there are a lot of enjoyable aspects of flying, if just for the visuals. And lets also not forget that there have been some fun flying quests in the past. I agree with the devs wanting to eliminate quest-bombing and maybe add some fun things like chests and rares that would be trivialized with flight.. but at the same time, there were some fun things about flying BESIDES quest-bombing and efficiency.

[Amraelic]

I hope they change that inn 6.2

I recently started WOD, we'll 92 level now...

I miss flying already. Just thinking about not having it on max level is crap.

You've guessed correctly. It is crap.

I hit 100 on my first toon two weeks after WoD came out. The raiding and garrison stuff was entertaining for awhile... but gradually I felt trapped in a endless cycle of raiding/garrison, raiding/garrison... I was hoping the first major patch would add flying back, if for no other reason that it would speed up access to things like pet battles, Apexis Dailies, farming trapped beasts... and on and on.

When 6.1 came out and it wasn't in the game, I was crushed. I hit the forums pretty hard, getting into some threads about flying, making respectful posts about why I was disappointed, and within 48 hours, all the threads I had participated in were deleted. When I asked why, I got forum banned for three days.

I've been cancelled since February 26th. My sub ran out the next day. And to be honest... I've enjoyed not having to log in and grind through farmvil--- I mean garrison chores, and do raids for the 30th time I've done before.

All this no-flying thing amounted to for me was a time sink. There was another REALLY popular MMO that had unnecessary time sinks. It was called EQ. I think it has like 150k players right now, and most aren't active. There's so much wrong with this expac... Blizzard is doing their best SOE imitation right now.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Fair point. I meant no one here but didn't say that.

While I'm at it, I'll also say that for me flying/no-flying is a mixed thing. It's not at all impossible to like and miss flying while at the same time realize that it hasn't been nearly the problem in Draenor that I originally thought it would be. I loathe the way they've managed the change starting with the flying mount in the CE and their inability to say what they are going to do although it's clear to me, if no one else, what they want to do.

Not everything is a binary proposition: A-B, Yes-No, Black-White. After several months of this, I'm fine flying in the rest of Azeroth and don't overly miss it in Draenor. Subjective is as subjective does.

The game has problems. Lack of flying isn't the biggest one at the moment. I'm not working on Pandaria reputations at the moment because I'm so overrun with things to do in Draenor that I can't decide what to do first.

On the status of flying, I like the world being made from the POV of the ground, I sincerely enjoy it, but flight would not be significantly detrimental to my experience. I've been doing raiding, pet battles, archaeology, rep grinding, and many other activities that I'm really not finding a lack of content. But it is starting to get old, even if I do still have things left to do. 6.2 needs to have something new, and I feel that a lot won't care if 6.2 has flying or not, as long as there's stuff to do.

The biggest thing I miss? Is having something to farm for in the world. Like specific mobs that drop a pet or a recipe, rares to farm for rare drop toys and cool things. That "gamble" for the time investment and eventual payout was always thrilling, and was, once again, nothing to do with flight. It expedited it, but I never really felt the "need" for it to do those things.

[Wrathonia]

On the status of flying, I like the world being made from the POV of the ground, I sincerely enjoy it, but flight would not be significantly detrimental to my experience. I've been doing raiding, pet battles, archaeology, rep grinding, and many other activities that I'm really not finding a lack of content. But it is starting to get old, even if I do still have things left to do. 6.2 needs to have something new, and I feel that a lot won't care if 6.2 has flying or not, as long as there's stuff to do.

The biggest thing I miss? Is having something to farm for in the world. Like specific mobs that drop a pet or a recipe, rares to farm for rare drop toys and cool things. That "gamble" for the time investment and eventual payout was always thrilling, and was, once again, nothing to do with flight. It expedited it, but I never really felt the "need" for it to do those things.

For me? Even though I miss playing WoW, spending time with friends and yes, flying. What I miss most is the dungeon scene. Even from Cata. I dearly miss chain running dungeons for currency and rep. It gave me goals and at the time they were challenging enough that I had to pay attention. God, I miss those days. That's one thing that GW2 will never do for me. Once you get your exotic gear, everything else you get requires ridiculous amounts of resources and is optional to the point of useless fluff. I miss dungeons...

[Mafic]

No. There isn't a middle ground to 'we're doing this because we feel it's best for the game' and 'we're going based on feedback' you either made a major decision on the game because you felt it was the best way to go or you let the players decide in an honest way.

Waffling every few weeks means they never believed it was the right direction to go means they're just fucking around.

Are you honestly telling me they're willing to trivialize all of those amazing encounters they designed with no flight in mind just because the player feefback finally changed their mind?

And like I said before, being clear with their intentions would show they at least have some conviction and respect. They don't.

Yup.

If they believed in their design decision they wouldn't waffle about it. I think there is uncertainty from a financial point of view of this is sustainable which is why they are not taking a definitive stance either way.