Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Runevalkyrie]

Seeing that it would fit the expansion theme of pruning classes of nice things, that would fit to a t.

However if I recall they are adding mount movement bonuses with garrisons so it seems more on the doubt they are removing them entriely.

[-Superman-]

What you just propose is removin paladin and DK speed bonuses. Shouldn't they design around them rather than take them away?

The goal is about balance for the entire game. We are having racials modified for balance, we are having healing modified for balance, even ability pruning and item squish is all about balance. If it meant keeping my Storm Crow and losing my DK's speed bonus, but still getting to use my Frostbrood Vanquisher, I am ok with that.

There are always going to be growing pains with compromise. What I am trying to prevent is the permanent removal of one feature, while adding new and compelling twists to help balance it. The game is about 7M people, not just me and my own needs. I see that now. However, that does not change my ultimate decision should flight fail to return in 6.1. Compromise is giving and taking, not just taking.

[wow2011]

I *do* advise those who feel as strongly as me to do the same and not pay to play WoD, because if a lot of people *do* hate it, that's really the only way for Blizzard to know since a sample of players that is representative of the whole player base does not post on the forums.

This isn't effective in conveying your discontent. The proper way to do it is to unsub so you get a reason box in which you can type "I am quitting because ABC". Not buying WoD doesn't tell Blizzard anything. If a large chunck of players unsub the moment 6.1 ships (assuming there is no flight in 6.1) with reason "I am quitting because no flight in 6.1" then Blizzard will certainly do something about it. Or unsub now with "no flying at max level in wod".

[quras]

This isn't effective in conveying your discontent. The proper way to do it is to unsub so you get a reason box in which you can type "I am quitting because ABC". Not buying WoD doesn't tell Blizzard anything. If a large chunck of players unsub the moment 6.1 ships (assuming there is no flight in 6.1) with reason "I am quitting because no flight in 6.1" then Blizzard will certainly do something about it. Or unsub now with "no flying at max level in wod".

I'm not so sure of that. We know this is a hot spot for blizzard to lurk. We know they check their own forums cause they also ban gamers who type to harshly about blizzard and this very subject.

While the, "Give us reasons you're leaving" box is very good. It's not nearly the only place they are looking at for information.

and given this topic, you can bet someone from blizzard is reading if only occasionally.

[Giscoicus]

The goal is about balance for the entire game. We are having racials modified for balance, we are having healing modified for balance, even ability pruning and item squish is all about balance. If it meant keeping my Storm Crow and losing my DK's speed bonus, but still getting to use my Frostbrood Vanquisher, I am ok with that.

There are always going to be growing pains with compromise. What I am trying to prevent is the permanent removal of one feature, while adding new and compelling twists to help balance it. The game is about 7M people, not just me and my own needs. I see that now. However, that does not change my ultimate decision should flight fail to return in 6.1. Compromise is giving and taking, not just taking.

The give is that flying mounts are usable elsewhere and can be used as ground mounts. That is far more of a compromise than removing all flight

You still proposed the removal of class based skills to equalize travel speed.

[Maneo]

This isn't effective in conveying your discontent. The proper way to do it is to unsub so you get a reason box in which you can type "I am quitting because ABC". Not buying WoD doesn't tell Blizzard anything. If a large chunck of players unsub the moment 6.1 ships (assuming there is no flight in 6.1) with reason "I am quitting because no flight in 6.1" then Blizzard will certainly do something about it. Or unsub now with "no flying at max level in wod".

Well I got my pre order refunded. When they asked why I wanted it refunded I said the possibility of WoD being the first expansion w/out flight.

My account expired a few days ago and the day before it expired I went under suggestion and let them know why I will not be renewing my sub.

I honestly don't think Blizzard gives a damn though.

[-Superman-]

The give is that flying mounts are usable elsewhere and can be used as ground mounts. That is far more of a compromise than removing all flight

You still proposed the removal of class based skills to equalize travel speed.

And the removal of flight removes the Druid's class based ability to become a Storm Crow. Why should speed matter? The convenience is in flying. Also, you would not lose the bonus on ground mounts, just on flying mounts. Seems pretty fair. I get to keep my Storm Crow and you get to keep your speed bonus... on the ground. Why would you care if the speed bonus is even removed from flight? Aren't you against flight?

[Destruktion]

If flying is going to be a part of the game moving forward, it needs to be on equal (or essentially equal) footing with ground mounts i.e. no clear net advantage over ground mounts. I don't think removing class abilities would be the way to go, because class abilities like Storm Crow and paladin/DK speed boost give classes a unique flair that is absolutely needed (since class homogenization is killing uniqueness). Flying just needs to be nerfed and ground travel needs to be buffed, one way or another. That way the choice between ground travel and flying will be a matter of preference.

[-Superman-]

If flying is going to be a part of the game moving forward, it needs to be on equal (or essentially equal) footing with ground mounts i.e. no clear net advantage over ground mounts. I don't think removing class abilities would be the way to go, because class abilities like Storm Crow and paladin/DK speed boost give classes a unique flair that is absolutely needed (since class homogenization is killing uniqueness). Flying just needs to be nerfed and ground travel needs to be buffed, one way or another. That way the choice between ground travel and flying will be a matter of preference.

Make it so lvl 20 ground mounts and lvl 70 flying mounts move at the same speed. - 60%
Then make lvl 40 ground mounts and lvl 80 flying move at the same speed - 100%
At lvl 90, your land mount and flier both move at the same speed. - 150%

Now flight has ZERO advantage unless you compare lvl 80 flight to level 20 riding. And those two groups are far enough apart it matters not.

Then flying stays, class abilities are untouched, and mounts are balanced. so flight at 70 would actually be slower than ground mounts at 40 and would make it a personal choice. Only thing left is PvP (which I hate) and if we had aerial combat, even that could be resolved.

[quras]

SNIP....

I honestly don't think Blizzard gives a damn though.

I'm of similar thinking when it comes to blizzard limiting flying and not leaving it as a max level ability.

They really don't care and it's just some experiment for them to try out and see what happens.

So, no better way to make blizzard understand than to stop paying them. Stop using their service and stop purchasing their games. blizzard is very worried about the bottom line these days so thats where gamers need to work to get change.

Hell, at least they would work on a compromise at that point.

[Destruktion]

Make it so lvl 20 ground mounts and lvl 70 flying mounts move at the same speed. - 60%
Then make lvl 40 ground mounts and lvl 80 flying move at the same speed - 100%
At lvl 90, your land mount and flier both move at the same speed. - 150%

Now flight has ZERO advantage unless you compare lvl 80 flight to level 20 riding. And those two groups are far enough apart it matters not.

Then flying stays, class abilities are untouched, and mounts are balanced. so flight at 70 would actually be slower than ground mounts at 40 and would make it a personal choice. Only thing left is PvP (which I hate) and if we had aerial combat, even that could be resolved.

That's a start, but not quite enough. Flying mounts can still basically fly wherever without consequences. There needs to be some way to hinder flyers from just swooping down in the middle of a mob field, completing their objective, and flying off like it's nothing.

[quras]

That's a start, but not quite enough. Flying mounts can still basically fly wherever without consequences. There needs to be some way to hinder flyers from just swooping down in the middle of a mob field, completing their objective, and flying off like it's nothing.

Since you can't fly while leveling its a non issue and since questing at max level is generally pointless, I don't care what others do at max level when questing. They can quest bomb it or have a raid group go in and destroy everything so their solo toon can stroll in and claim the reward. At max level it's not a big bother.

[-Superman-]

That's a start, but not quite enough. Flying mounts can still basically fly wherever without consequences. There needs to be some way to hinder flyers from just swooping down in the middle of a mob field, completing their objective, and flying off like it's nothing.

Which is where lowering the skybox and adding things like cannons from the ground (manned by NPCs) and large birds come into play. If a bird knocks you off your mount, it drags you to the ground and into combat (without fall damage). Not sure how much more "compromise" I really have to add before people just allow flight. It may go the other way in 6.1. Flight may come back, as intended with NO restrictions on it. And should that happen, we will let the anti-flying crowd present THEIR ideas for compromise and decide IF we even want to entertain them.

[cabyio]

Only thing left is PvP (which I hate) and if we had aerial combat, even that could be resolved.

Omg, being able to gank someone as they were flying would be sweet. Its kinda doable right now, but requires special stuff. :P

[Giscoicus]

And the removal of flight removes the Druid's class based ability to become a Storm Crow. Why should speed matter? The convenience is in flying. Also, you would not lose the bonus on ground mounts, just on flying mounts. Seems pretty fair. I get to keep my Storm Crow and you get to keep your speed bonus... on the ground. Why would you care if the speed bonus is even removed from flight? Aren't you against flight?

Im against your flawed reasoning that removal is inherently bad, and you yourself are proposing removal of other features in order to keep flight.

[Sunseeker]

Omg, being able to gank someone as they were flying would be sweet. Its kinda doable right now, but requires special stuff. :P

Yeah, it's called rolling a priest.

Fly along, dot 'em, levitate yourself.

[Giscoicus]

Which is where lowering the skybox and adding things like cannons from the ground (manned by NPCs) and large birds come into play. If a bird knocks you off your mount, it drags you to the ground and into combat (without fall damage). Not sure how much more "compromise" I really have to add before people just allow flight. It may go the other way in 6.1. Flight may come back, as intended with NO restrictions on it. And should that happen, we will let the anti-flying crowd present THEIR ideas for compromise and decide IF we even want to entertain them.

You still avoid geographical barriers and other players while flying.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, it's called rolling a priest.

Fly along, dot 'em, levitate yourself.

Priest dots have 0 chance of killing a player.

[Destruktion]

Since you can't fly while leveling its a non issue and since questing at max level is generally pointless, I don't care what others do at max level when questing. They can quest bomb it or have a raid group go in and destroy everything so their solo toon can stroll in and claim the reward. At max level it's not a big bother.

Max level is where repeat content happens, and repeat content is the basis of the MMORPG subscription model. There may not be as much to do out in the world as there is in an instance, but there's enough open-world content that this is an issue.

Which is where lowering the skybox and adding things like cannons from the ground (manned by NPCs) and large birds come into play. If a bird knocks you off your mount, it drags you to the ground and into combat (without fall damage). Not sure how much more "compromise" I really have to add before people just allow flight. It may go the other way in 6.1. Flight may come back, as intended with NO restrictions on it. And should that happen, we will let the anti-flying crowd present THEIR ideas for compromise and decide IF we even want to entertain them.

How much are you willing to lower the skybox? There's no point in lowering it at all unless you're going to keep flying quite close to the ground, like within range of ranged attacks coming from the ground.

Anti-aircraft is where, I think, a solution will be found here. But how far are you willing to go? Are you willing to allow yourself to be one-shotted when flying too close to a pack of mobs? Are you willing to give up the sense of tranquility that often comes with flying because at any point in the sky you are in danger of being attacked by mobs you won't see coming?

It's pretty straightforward: I want ground mounts and flying mounts to be on even footing. What you suggested with the speed changes was great, but the fact that you then claimed there was now ZERO advantage of flight over ground to me says that you don't understand the issues that flying is causing for open-world content.

The bolded part is pretty cocky, bro. Clearly Blizzard is siding with the anti-fliers, and here I am extending the olive branch and trying to get everyone what they want. I certainly hope you'll entertain our ideas as a courtesy because we took the time to listen to yours.

[-Superman-]

You still avoid geographical barriers and other players while flying.

And what does that matter at level cap? I can't avoid them farming. I can't avoid them raiding. I can't avoid them during world events. I can't avoid them doing dailies. I can't avoid them on the little islands we get funneled to.

What does it matter if I am lvl 100 and want to fly in a straight line from Shadowmoon to FrostFire? Who am I hurting on my little RP realm by being high in the sky at level 100 on my way from my Garrison to some dailies?

I will have just spent 4 months on the ground, interact, questing, running dungeons, and doing dailies with people. Who does it really harm?

- - - Updated - - -

How much are you willing to lower the skybox? There's no point in lowering it at all unless you're going to keep flying quite close to the ground, like within range of ranged attacks coming from the ground.

Anti-aircraft is where, I think, a solution will be found here. But how far are you willing to go? Are you willing to allow yourself to be one-shotted when flying too close to a pack of mobs? Are you willing to give up the sense of tranquility that often comes with flying because at any point in the sky you are in danger of being attacked by mobs you won't see coming?

It's pretty straightforward: I want ground mounts and flying mounts to be on even footing. What you suggested with the speed changes was great, but the fact that you then claimed there was now ZERO advantage of flight over ground to me says that you don't understand the issues that flying is causing for open-world content.

The bolded part is pretty cocky, bro. Clearly Blizzard is siding with the anti-fliers, and here I am extending the olive branch and trying to get everyone what they want. I certainly hope you'll entertain our ideas as a courtesy because we took the time to listen to yours.

Oh I certainly plan to hang on every word and then tell you why it won't work and ask you to bring MORE compromise as you are doing now. You can drop the skybox down to 20 feet above the tallest tree. Only NPCs could dismount you anyway, and they can get LONGER range if needed. Like I said, I am just throwing out ideas. They mean jack shit if Blizz doesn't listen, or care. Do I want flight removed? No. Am I trying to prove it doesn't have to be? Yes. Are you thinking outside the box at all or are you just letting me think shit up so you can shoot it down?

Here's a thought - Let's pretend you work for Blizz. Your boss just challenged you to find a way to balance flying. Mounts cannot go more than 15 feet above the tree line, and there should be obstacles, both structures, trees, mountains, and NPCs to hinder flying. Not every 2 feet, but enough that flying from Booty Bay to Light's Hope chapel would be a challenge that you could not just AFK for. You have to bring him these ideas, or else flying remains unchanged. Tell me, what kind of balance would YOU bring?

[Destruktion]

Oh I certainly plan to hang on every word and then tell you why it won't work and ask you to bring MORE compromise as you are doing now. You can drop the skybox down to 20 feet above the tallest tree. Only NPCs could dismount you anyway, and they can get LONGER range if needed. Like I said, I am just throwing out ideas. They mean jack shit if Blizz doesn't listen, or care. Do I want flight removed? No. Am I trying to prove it doesn't have to be? Yes. Are you thinking outside the box at all or are you just letting me think shit up so you can shoot it down?

I've already offered me ideas on what to do earlier on, but nobody really had anything to say about them. Instead, I'm letting you spitball ideas and then we see what works and what doesn't.

And Blizz has mentioned that they do view forum discussions from time to time, so you never know who is reading your ideas.

Here's a thought - Let's pretend you work for Blizz. Your boss just challenged you to find a way to balance flying. Mounts cannot go more than 15 feet above the tree line, and there should be obstacles, both structures, trees, mountains, and NPCs to hinder flying. Not every 2 feet, but enough that flying from Booty Bay to Light's Hope chapel would be a challenge that you could not just AFK for. You have to bring him these ideas, or else flying remains unchanged. Tell me, what kind of balance would YOU bring?

I like the idea of a debuff similar to Haunting Spirits in SFK which instead of spawning ghosts would spawn flying mobs that randomly appear and attack you while you are above a certain altitude. The spawning rate of these mobs will be an exponential function of your flying altitude. You cannot fly faster than these mobs. You have the possibility of being dismounted without a parachute by these mobs. If you want to deal with them, you have to fly to the ground and fight them there. These mobs will not spawn in the airspace above settlements in the world, and they will not attack you on a flight path. The goal is to make flight paths more appealing for long-range travel; additionally, it keeps flying mount users much closer to the ground without shrinking the skybox. Players will no longer be able to fly straight up to AFK or avoid interaction with the ground.

On the ground, mobs will be found in similar numbers to how they are now. Select mobs will have anti-aircraft abilities. This could include operating flak cannons and the like, sending flying pets after you, or shooting you with guns/rockets/magic. One-hit kills are a bit too harsh, but the damage will be significant enough that in most cases you won't be able to fly in from above and will need to approach mob packs from the ground. If you wish to avoid them, you will need to maneuver around them as you must with ground mounts.

I like the idea of keeping flying mounts slow and ground mounts faster, as it was in TBC before epic flying. I think flying mounts should have more utility in open-world situations, for getting to hard-to-reach areas and such. Ground mounts should be the speed demons. This way, players may decide situationally which method of travel to use to accomplish their goals, whether that be to reach secret areas, get where they're going the fastest, enjoy the scenery from above, enjoy the scenery from below, or show off what they got to other players. I think this would make for a much more interesting experience, because traversing the world becomes less of a passive activity and more a part of the game.

As for traveling from Booty Bay to Light's Hope Chapel, the players who want to get there the fastest will take a flight path. The players who want to get there fast but see the world from the ground will take a ground mount. The players who wish to see the world from above or to reach special areas will fly, albeit at a slower pace. No one's stopping them from grounding to their destination, and then flying the rest of the way there.