Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Evilfish]

So if I start spouting a bunch of bullshit I'm right until someone bothers explaining it? There are intangibles that are common sense, denying them doesn't make what you said worth debating. According to you, the Earth hasn't gotten any smaller from the time between horse and carriage and modern air travel? And I swear to god if you take 'smaller' literally...

But you have. All the crap I read from you is how you disagree with people's opinions and somehow transform your own opinion into a fact. That's one-sided bullshit. So what do you want me to say? That the world is "smaller" in a figurative sense? Sure, it's easier to get to places, easier to contact people further away an so on. But the world is the same if you choose to view it from a certain place and that's the beauty of it. Cause you have that option, both here and in WoW. So get that through your head. The people arguing with your vague crap want to hold on to that choice.

[Ordinator]

All the crap I read from you is how you disagree with people's opinions and somehow transform your own opinion into a fact.

That's quite literally this entire thread. The problem is FAR too many people confuse opinions and speculations as facts here. And so you have people who say things like "I DEBUNKED AND CRUSHED YOUR ARGUMENT!!!! I COUNTER EVERYTHING YOU SAY!!!!!" when really all they did was offer their opinion. I just can't take this thread serious anymore.

[Dormie]

But you have. All the crap I read from you is how you disagree with people's opinions and somehow transform your own opinion into a fact. That's one-sided bullshit. So what do you want me to say? That the world is "smaller" in a figurative sense? Sure, it's easier to get to places, easier to contact people further away an so on. But the world is the same if you choose to view it from a certain place and that's the beauty of it. Cause you have that option, both here and in WoW. So get that through your head. The people arguing with your vague crap want to hold on to that choice.

In my defense half the time when I'm giving my opinion people mistake it for me saying its fact because of the way I tend to phrase/explain it.

But, there are certain things that are technically opinion, but might as well be fact because it's the common opinion. Such as the world becoming smaller when you can travel easier/faster. Because really distance is only relative to speed. To an ant 10 yards would seem much bigger than to us because we can travel it do quickly and easily. With flying mounts we make the world that much smaller. Think if we could teleport anywhere irl, the term big/small would be irrelevant since going to china wouldn't be any different than going next door. Not to say that's an exact comparison to having and not having flying but you get the idea.

Also going to point out that this is only one aspect of this discussion. Sometimes people like to give a rebuttal that, in their mind, discounts the argument. But I've noticed that people forget that this is only 1 supporting argument of no flying, not the only one. Discounting or lessening this point with your response doesn't defeat the whole no-flying stance.


As for the rest of your post I quoted before, I said it was ignorant because you seem to willfully ignore the way in which your forcing people to play in your style by having flying. Also ignoring how the 'don't fly if u don't want' argument is a folly one. Read the last line of your post from a couple responses up and tell it to yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

That's quite literally this entire thread. The problem is FAR too many people confuse opinions and speculations as facts here. And so you have people who say things like "I DEBUNKED AND CRUSHED YOUR ARGUMENT!!!! I COUNTER EVERYTHING YOU SAY!!!!!" when really all they did was offer their opinion. I just can't take this thread serious anymore.

That's what I've been saying. This is all literally pointless until people are conscious of what they're doing when they respond(being purposely dense, giving their opinions as responses, etc). Also people make up ghost arguments. Arguments that can't really be disproven, but that most people know are bull. Such as the one where people complain of being dismounted. Yea, you CAN technically be dismounted over and over, but it just doesn't happen, as the 1 person thats playing beta said. Saying you can explore between your destinations is another one of these arguments. Sure you can technically do it between A to B, and you might occasionally, but we all know you're beelining to your location 90% of the time.

[Evilfish]

That's quite literally this entire thread. The problem is FAR too many people confuse opinions and speculations as facts here. And so you have people who say things like "I DEBUNKED AND CRUSHED YOUR ARGUMENT!!!! I COUNTER EVERYTHING YOU SAY!!!!!" when really all they did was offer their opinion. I just can't take this thread serious anymore.

Tell me about it. I've been trying to tell you guys that I don't give a shit about how you imagine that no flying is gonna "convince" people that it's actually pretty awesome when I know that FOR ME it is not. I've been trying to tell you guys that I don't want the choice of flying or not flying taken away from me because your opinion is that it will improve the game and my opinion is that it won't improve it for me. In fact I'm pretty set on quitting if this becomes a permanent thing. Are you gonna do the same if flying resumes after the first patch?

I honestly don't understand some of you here. I mean, you know how this is gonna turn out. No more opinions and thoughts. It's time to look at history. People in WoW have these things that became part of their experience. Like doing daily quests, battlegrounds, heroic dungoens. Sure there's a lot of controversy going on there but that never ceased the general function of these features.

Cataclysm tried to listen to guys like you and they ended up having to "fix" everything. This is no different. Really the only thing is that the control freaks have targeted flight and instead of using statistical data they used social ideals as the foundation of their whole argument which is bullshit cause any fool is able to see that the social ideas of WoW exist in a very tight connection with player comfort and routine. And you are trying to break both cause... well, cause that way someone might listen to you and acknowledge your existence or i don't know what the fuck. The bottom line is that I'm gonna have to go an entire fucking patch without my poor dragon of death and bones having it's putrid, gross wings spreading across the skies of Draenor cause guys like you just wanna have their small little fucking day. So thanks for that.

But you know what? A month later I probably won't even remember this discussion. So that's what you are. Passin vague chapters in a passing story of epic failing. Cheers.

[Doomchicken]

Tell me about it. I've been trying to tell you guys that I don't give a shit about how you imagine that no flying is gonna "convince" people that it's actually pretty awesome when I know that FOR ME it is not. I've been trying to tell you guys that I don't want the choice of flying or not flying taken away from me because your opinion is that it will improve the game and my opinion is that it won't improve it for me. In fact I'm pretty set on quitting if this becomes a permanent thing. Are you gonna do the same if flying resumes after the first patch?

I honestly don't understand some of you here. I mean, you know how this is gonna turn out. No more opinions and thoughts. It's time to look at history. People in WoW have these things that became part of their experience. Like doing daily quests, battlegrounds, heroic dungoens. Sure there's a lot of controversy going on there but that never ceased the general function of these features.

Cataclysm tried to listen to guys like you and they ended up having to "fix" everything. This is no different. Really the only thing is that the control freaks have targeted flight and instead of using statistical data they used social ideals as the foundation of their whole argument which is bullshit cause any fool is able to see that the social ideas of WoW exist in a very tight connection with player comfort and routine. And you are trying to break both cause... well, cause that way someone might listen to you and acknowledge your existence or i don't know what the fuck. The bottom line is that I'm gonna have to go an entire fucking patch without my poor dragon of death and bones having it's putrid, gross wings spreading across the skies of Draenor cause guys like you just wanna have their small little fucking day. So thanks for that.

But you know what? A month later I probably won't even remember this discussion. So that's what you are. Passin vague chapters in a passing story of epic failing. Cheers.

If you understood what the issue was you'd see why Hard heroics and no flying are as comparable as apples and oranges.

Harder heroics stopped casuals from getting gear. There were no other paths for them to progress their character and thus they quit. No flying won't stop people from gearing up, no flying won't stop people from progressing their characters. No significant amount of people will quit over this, especially not 50 percent of the playerbase or some such bullshit and people are delusional if they think so. Laughably mad even.

[Granyala]

Because it's a stupid argument. That "the less I see the bigger it seems" is opinion based. To me some zones felt smaller when I wasn't able to fly in them, that's what makes it stupid.

Then your perception is rather unique.
Usually travel time is one of the factors that help us assess how big a zone is.
Increase travel time and your same zone will feel larger for most people.

You can try that out with Saints Row the Third and Saints Row IV. Both games feature the exact same city, however in SR IV steelport feels a lot smaller due to your super speed/jump abilities. (Basically flight)

[Evilfish]

If you understood what the issue was you'd see why Hard heroics and no flying are as comparable as apples and oranges.

Harder heroics stopped casuals from getting gear. There were no other paths for them to progress their character and thus they quit. No flying won't stop people from gearing up, no flying won't stop people from progressing their characters. No significant amount of people will quit over this, especially not 50 percent of the playerbase or some such bullshit and people are delusional if they think so. Laughably mad even.

Hard heroics didn't stop shit. Ok? They just made it harder and it was hard enough for people not to be bothered with. I got gear than and I got stuck in the team with internet girlfriends, the raid leader's girlfriend, get the idea. I still got some loot in that awful group so I'm pretty sure I was on the worse team on my server.

The idea was that we didn't like going through that hassle. We made that clear, several times on the forums. ... nah, we flooded the forums and wooopy here we are. Pug-able raids..

And honestly I'd be amused if because if that is a proper lesson then flying is gonna get 1000 times better. So ha ha aha.

And the funny thing about Blizzard is that they showed that they have really big and clean ears and when all that shouting reaches those sensitive, well maintained ears they'll look over their shoulder at the Cataclysm banner and be struck with the shocking solution - flying reinstated, Things go back to normal hooray hoodray.

Drawing the line. What the fuck did we gain out of this? NOTHIGN. Just a longass discussion about opinions and how they relate to our assholes and that's about it. Good discussion.
One patch of crap no flying and then you vanish. Poof!

[Doomchicken]

Hard heroics didn't stop shit. Ok? They just made it harder and it was hard enough for people not to be bothered with.

Which means that it stopped them from progressing. When the risk of a bad group using the groupfinder outweighs the reward, which there usually wasn't one due to group disbanding, people don't bother with it. If Blizzard felt otherwise and the numbers showed otherwise then they never would of been nerfed and they would of never been faceroll easy in Mists either.

The same thing came up again in mists in a very different manner. The MoP dailies. Back early MoP before even being able to touch the other dailies you had to get to revered with the golden lotus which I recall was 14 days of doing all the dailies. IIRC It was 21 days of dailies to get to exalted. The reward for doing so was once you had enough valor you could buy a piece of epic gear that was on par with normals, better than what you could possibly get from LFR.

As much as it's not a problem for you, nor for me this game is populated with a lot more people that can't play the game as long as we can for as long as we do. Therefore for those in the "west" that quit it was because again, people felt the over abundance of dailies plus the valor gating slowed down the progression of their characters more than they can deal with, so they quit. Again, if the numbers didn't show this blizzard never would of added commendations and made golden lotus optional and can be skipped to do the other factions instead. They also never would of drastically reduced the number of dailies in 5.2, 5.3 and 5.4.

So yeah, that shit matters a lot more than what flying does. You enjoy it? Awesome. Others don't? Great.
But lets not pretend this issue is more than it is. Lets not pretend this makes that much of a difference. When it never has, was or ever will.

[Tripax]

Shouldn't play a mmorpg if you can't handle the traveling.

[Asmekiel]

Shouldn't play a mmorpg if you can't handle the traveling.

While there are some posts about portals, I don't think anyone here is arguing for removing traveltimes from the game.

[Maneo]

If you understood what the issue was you'd see why Hard heroics and no flying are as comparable as apples and oranges.

Harder heroics stopped casuals from getting gear. There were no other paths for them to progress their character and thus they quit. No flying won't stop people from gearing up, no flying won't stop people from progressing their characters. No significant amount of people will quit over this, especially not 50 percent of the playerbase or some such bullshit and people are delusional if they think so. Laughably mad even.

Removal of flight has a negative effect on everything beyond instanced content, by making already tedious tasks even more so.

If you play this game just for raiding or pvp it isn't going to effect you. Me personally and others like me instanced content is only about 40% of the game for me.

As far as many people not quitting .. I doubt it.

This is the first expac I have seen with multiple threads on multiple forums explaining how to get a refund on your pre order. For all the pissing and moaning that was done w/the launch of MoP that didn't happen. That there tells me that people will and have quit over this in far larger numbers then you seem to think possible.

Personally I know 10 people that have already quit because of this, and another 10 that will quit if flying isn't brought back in 6.1 (one of them was a anti flight person till he got into beta)

Shouldn't play a mmorpg if you can't handle the traveling.

WoW w/flight being removed has the absolute worst travel system of ANY MMO. This is probably why flight was brought in in BC.

[quras]

Then your perception is rather unique.
Usually travel time is one of the factors that help us assess how big a zone is.
Increase travel time and your same zone will feel larger for most people.

If you want to fool yourself into thinking something is bigger when it is not really bigger thats fine but you are still a fool and the world is indeed - not bigger.

--------------------------------

I also love the new sale of the Sky Reaver"

"Forged by the brutal hand of the Iron Horde and tempered by hatred, the Iron Skyreaver is a fearsome blend of beast and machine. This twin-headed terror dominates the sky and strikes fear into any foe who dares challenge it. Take the reins of one of these monstrosities for 40% off this week only, but beware—the Skyreaver suffers only the most formidable masters to ride it."

Nice sale for a flying mount that can't fly in WoD nor dominate the skies and it's based on the very expansion it cannot fly in.

What a dick move on blizzards end. Another reason to hate this no flying at max level crap.

[Maneo]

Nice sale for a flying mount that can't fly in WoD nor dominate the skies and it's based on the very expansion it cannot fly in.

What a dick move on blizzards end. Another reason to hate this no flying at max level crap.

Yah combine that with the Collectors edition having a flying mount.

I swear Blizzard is either oblivious or seriously trying to be ass holes.

[Biggles Worth]

I would have to disagree. When it comes to WoW, if we take an honest look, regardless of our personal opinion on the matter, we can see that:

- Vanilla came at a time when the MMORPG genre needed a hero. WoW picked up the reigns and rode into TBC with close to 8 million subs after just 2 years. There was only flight paths and ground mounts.

- TBC came in with a thundering boom, carrying the saga even farther than before. Boasting numbers upwards of 10M by its conclusion. Flight was only available at the end of TBC, and could only be used in Outlands. Some people, myself included, could never afford flying. Flight was only needed to reach end game content in Netherstorm.

- Wrath came in, bringing the great villain of WC3, and its Frozen Throne expansion, ushering WoW to heights of near 12.5M players. Flight was initially only available at lvl cap, but a tome later allowed flying for alts at lvl 77 to make Storm Peaks easier to quest through. This is when I could finally afford flight. The only place flight was needed was in Storm Peaks, and specifically Ulduar, and its surrounding dungeons.

- Cataclysm showed up, changed the entire face of EK and Kalimdor. The landscape was forever changed, and the skies were unlocked to lvl 60+. Flight was also dropped to lvl 60 in TBC and 70 in Wrath. Flight was needed because of zones like Deepholm, and instances like Throne of the Four Winds and Vortex Pinnacle (entrances in the skies). After a year of Dragon Soul, subs dipped to 9.1M.

- Then came Pandaria. We reached back up for 10M, and have slowly descended to 7M, or lower (since the last given figures). We didn't get flying again until lvl 90, just 5 levels from our top in Cataclysm. Flight was only really needed for the dailies in the Valley (up on the hill), and direct route flights out to the Timeless Isle for some free gear. Aside from rep and coin farmers, most players took the gear, and the burdens, spent a few hours playing on the aisle, and then headed into raids to gear up farther. While there were some no fly zones, even as a fan of ground mounts, I was not impressed by the content the isle held.

Through all of this, flying has really only ever been a fast, and convenient method to move from A to B. Though it is nice for some to be able to skip over the old content and trash mobs they have already completed, I'm not entirely convinced that flying played a major role in any aspect of this game other than for speed, and convenience. Had flight never been introduced in TBC, WoW would likely be just as popular, with just as many fans, raiders, and pvpers as it has today. After 10 years, and 100M accounts come and gone, and 7M (as of last count) still standing, I'm not convinced flying played a major role in anything.

Take for example, the empty zones of the world. Between Battlemasters, Dungeon Finder, BG finder, Raid Finder, Arena Finder, and other conveniences, people no longer have to go out to the entrance of the instance. In 1.6, when we got battlemasters, you no longer had to go to the entrance of the BG. In 3.2, we got the dungeon finder, meaning no more LFG in chat, running to the summoning stone, and then hoping your whole party showed up. In 4.3, raiding got a similar facelift with easy mode raiding, but raiding none the less. Each time a new instance queue came, people stopped going to the entrance, and started sitting in the cities. Banks, AH, mailboxes, fishing holes, etc. Trade chat jammed up with people between queue pops. The world was now empty, and the city was full. The only people left in the world, were the side of the populous doing Archaeology, farming, gathering, pet battles, dailies, and questing. Flying was little more than a convenience for these things, but hardly a requirement.

All in all, the reason WoW is popular is because it was in the right place, at the right time, with the right fans. It had less to do with flying mounts and more to do with having millions of fans all over the world who played Star Craft/Brood War, Diablo, Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction, and Warcraft 1-3 with expansions. While I can see how much flying means to some players, and how attached they are to their mounts, and their playstyle, it is important to remember in the end, it is still a game, that was built from a fanbase, who played things in the Blizzard Universe... without flying mounts. Let's not over dramatize their importance on the game as a whole, but feel free to dramatize their importance on your individual game, and playstyle. Again, I am neither for, nor against the removal of flight. I am more interested in the truth about what flying is responsible for, and how compelling the game should be without it until 6.1. Without compelling gameplay, what are we really flying over?

I can agree with most things here. Also I can tell you that flying had absolutely nothing to do with my love for this game we play. The Netherwing quest to get my drake were a lot of fun. As the game went on for me flying began to feel more negative than positive.

[quras]

Yah combine that with the Collectors edition having a flying mount.

I swear Blizzard is either oblivious or seriously trying to be ass holes.

Given the way no flying is being handled, I'm thinking its a mixture of both on multiple levels. Everything from no content to live for over a year, to no flying at max level but still selling flying mounts in every possible way marketable, to the general lack of anything amazing in WoD from Story plot to actual played content in beta.

I know people hate to play that conspiracy card but WTF is up over there? We can't believe this is all meant to happen this way. It's just too moronic from a company this experienced in games. Yet it's the path of least resistance blizzard took, cutting corners and removing more than adding. So far in beta there is no "WOW "factor. No spark.

I can't support that kind of game design no matter how much I used to like and enjoy their games. Of all it's problems, no flying at max level to test the gamer in a "let the buyer beware" scenario is just the straw that broke the camels back and unacceptable.

[Maneo]

Given the way no flying is being handled, I'm thinking its a mixture of both on multiple levels. Everything from no content to live for over a year, to no flying at max level but still selling flying mounts in every possible way marketable, to the general lack of anything amazing in WoD from Story plot to actual played content in beta.

I know people hate to play that conspiracy card but WTF is up over there? We can't believe this is all meant to happen this way. It's just too moronic from a company this experienced in games. Yet it's the path of least resistance blizzard took, cutting corners and removing more than adding. So far in beta there is no "WOW "factor. No spark.

I can't support that kind of game design no matter how much I used to like and enjoy their games. Of all it's problems, no flying at max level to test the gamer in a "let the buyer beware" scenario is just the straw that broke the camels back and unacceptable.

Yah personally I think it is Blizzard or Activision is tired of sinking money into a game that has a dwindling player base.

Do a controlled burn if you will of subs (down to only the most loyal and dedicated). You would still have a profitable game as demonstrated by other MMOs with a much smaller base. You however would have a less demanding player base content could be released slower less often etc. This would free them up to reallocate resources to the next big thing .. instead of using all those resources on something that is dying a slow death.

[Deleted]

Yah personally I think it is Blizzard or Activision is tired of sinking money into a game that has a dwindling player base.

Do a controlled burn if you will of subs (down to only the most loyal and dedicated).

Same impression here. They seem like they are sick of their own game. But, if you approach development from purely $$$ perspective, one might get that idea. Apperance that devs are lazy - I'd say they are both on tight budget+direct orders from managers to try to be as cost effective in development. I've already talked about this, ATVI is no different than any other company these days, cut the costs+increase the sales. Doesn't matter how.

[Maneo]

Same impression here. They seem like they are sick of their own game. But, if you approach development from purely $$$ perspective, one might get that idea. Apperance that devs are lazy - I'd say they are both on tight budget+direct orders from managers to try to be as cost effective in development. I've already talked about this, ATVI is no different than any other company these days, cut the costs+increase the sales. Doesn't matter how.

It happened with music, movies, pretty much every form of art .... once you get the money men involved or having a say in the process you get shit.

I guess it is happening in video games now.

[CheeseSandwich]

Yah personally I think it is Blizzard or Activision is tired of sinking money into a game that has a dwindling player base.

Do a controlled burn if you will of subs (down to only the most loyal and dedicated). You would still have a profitable game as demonstrated by other MMOs with a much smaller base. You however would have a less demanding player base content could be released slower less often etc. This would free them up to reallocate resources to the next big thing .. instead of using all those resources on something that is dying a slow death.

I said this in January...

"I have a horrible, tin foil hat theory. Please bear with me, and put my fears to rest if it is totally absurd. I like Blizz and WoW and all of their games, but this pervading thought keeps creeping into my head, gnawing at my perception of them.

Blizz "knows" WoW is dying, they are trying to get as much out of the rest as they can, step by step.

Blizz has new titles coming out with models that could generate more revenue with the models they use than WoW could (Hearthstone, HotS) compared to input costs.

So, they are just trying to eek out as much player time as they can, and with it extra one off payment inducements, to gain as much as they can before WoW goes FTP, and people, hopefully in their eyes, move onto their other titles they own to maintain that revenue."

Yeah, I got the same feeling a long time ago...not a good thing.

[Maneo]

I said this in January...

"I have a horrible, tin foil hat theory. Please bear with me, and put my fears to rest if it is totally absurd. I like Blizz and WoW and all of their games, but this pervading thought keeps creeping into my head, gnawing at my perception of them.

Blizz "knows" WoW is dying, they are trying to get as much out of the rest as they can, step by step.

Blizz has new titles coming out with models that could generate more revenue with the models they use than WoW could (Hearthstone, HotS) compared to input costs.

So, they are just trying to eek out as much player time as they can, and with it extra one off payment inducements, to gain as much as they can before WoW goes FTP, and people, hopefully in their eyes, move onto their other titles they own to maintain that revenue."

Yeah, I got the same feeling a long time ago...not a good thing.

not a good thing but honestly inevitable