Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[-Superman-]

Thank you, friend. Logical thinking on the internet. Who would have thought such a thing was possible, right?

Also, since flying is in fact a well established part of the game, if they allowed it in Draenor I most definitely would utilize it. Though I still stand by my opinion that the game would be better if player flight had never been incorporated.

I am all for differing opinions, I just ask that people acknowledge the position of others and try to comprehend why they are responding the way they are. I've got better things to do than defend the rights of others to be entitled to their opinion while the narrowest of minds fail to comprehend why flight might actually be important to some players.

[rebecca191]

I wasn't talking about personal opinions.
Allowing free access to verticality does something to game design.

Sure, it's *different*. I don't think it's objectively *worse* for design. You can't objectively prove a zone designed for flight while questing and leveling (like Storm Peaks) is inherently worse than a zone in Draenor, or even an earlier zone in Northrend you couldn't initially fly in. So it all comes down to opinions, different people like different things, which is why although I would prefer 100% of the game's areas have flight at all times with no restrictions, I think the best thing for Blizzard to do to maximize the number of happy players would be to provide some no flying areas in current content (like Timeless Isle) and some with flying enabled. I will never understand what was so horrible about the previous model that they couldn't just stick with it rather than piss a bunch of people off for no logical reason whatsoever.

[thewallofsleep]

I am all for differing opinions, I just ask that people acknowledge the position of others and try to comprehend why they are responding the way they are. I've got better things to do than defend the rights of others to be entitled to their opinion while the narrowest of minds fail to comprehend why flight might actually be important to some players.

My initial thoughts on no flying in Draenor were positive. Then I thought, what purpose does disallowing it serve, apart from some flimsy argument about immersion?
I've only just resubscribed, and my max level experience this expansion is limited, but I can't imagine doing my dailies from past expansions without flying. It would take so much longer, and the flight paths would have bled my wallet dry.

[pankind]

It's not a matter of trying to demonize anyone. It is a matter of holding people accountable. If you have a design change, that's fine. Make it an announce it. But don't hide the announcement in an interview not on the main site 3 weeks after you start selling the product. That is shady shit. Flight or no flight, even the most tunnel visioned person should certainly see that.

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I've never used the word "promise" cause it makes it easy for the anti-flight group to just dismiss it. I called it an advertised item. They platformed on it at Blizzcon, and Bash only made a point of reiterating it in his interview on Joystiq. They are allowed to have design changes, but don't hide the announcement in an interview not on the main site 3 weeks after you start selling the product. That is shady shit. I am in favor of flight at max level, and think it should have unlocked as always too, but was actually intrigued by an epic quest. I've said it more than once: I would pay 500k gold and complete a Loremaster of Draenor achievement if that is what it took to use my dragon in the skies over Draenor.

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I drove it cause they kept telling me the missing component was coming Soon(TM).

It was very obvious what was happening to flight long before November 13, source: you're on the thread.

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The thread is about no flight on Draenor, not the insignificant mini side game of PvP. Staying on topic prevents derails.

Flight restriction has immediate impact on world PVP servers even if it has no impact on pve servers. That alone means it has at least some place in this conversation unless Blizzard is on record explicitly saying it doesn't. Also regarding your telling people to stay on topic and accusations of derailing, it would be helpful if you were to do that using the moderator font and color, for clarity.

[Sweetpeaz]

Some are also insanely happy about it.

Yet they can't explain why others need to play 'their' way in order for them to be insanely happy with it. Whereas pro-flight people continually say 'If you don't like to fly, don't.'

[-Superman-]

My initial thoughts on no flying in Draenor were positive. Then I thought, what purpose does disallowing it serve, apart from some flimsy argument about immersion?
I've only just resubscribed, and my max level experience this expansion is limited, but I can't imagine doing my dailies from past expansions without flying. It would take so much longer, and the flight paths would have bled my wallet dry.

Precisely. Not sure why a progressive raider would feel threatened by a casual having flight, and WoD has already shown that you don't need flight to be competitive since there is one daily quest, and garrisons are already overrun with crafting materials. No need to even leave their garrison. Meaning those of us who want to leave it, can do so without interfering with anyone else's game play.

[Schizoide]

Pretty easy to allow flying and not completely break world PvP, too. Two debuffs.

Flying Debuff
You deal 90% less damage and healing to other players for 5 minutes after flying.

PvP Debuff
You recently engaged in PvP combat and cannot fly for 5 minutes.

This doesn't completely fix world PvP; it still allows players to "opt-out" of world PvP by staying in the air. It doesn't allow ganking, which is a key component of world PvP. But it's a better compromise than allowing dozens of players to fly in and dive-bomb world PvP already ongoing, or vanish/feign/shadowmeld and fly away to escape at will.

[-Superman-]

It was very obvious what was happening to flight long before November 13, source: you're on the thread.

Yeah, I was stoked about Draenor, and it was already mentioned at Blizzcon there would be an epic quest to unlock flight. The "possibility" of no flight was not an actual possibility until April 26, 2014 when Bashiok came out and recanted against the quest in 6.1. Until that backpedaling, there was a real chance to get flight unlocked with 6.1.

Flight restriction has immediate impact on world PVP servers even if it has no impact on pve servers. That alone means it has at least some place in this conversation unless Blizzard is on record explicitly saying it doesn't. Also regarding your telling people to stay on topic and accusations of derailing, it would be helpful if you were to do that using the moderator font and color, for clarity.

Druids have tomes allowing them to fly in Ashran while PvPing. I fail to see how flight hurts PvP when Blizz implemented ways for people to fly while in a combat situation.

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Pretty easy to allow flying and not completely break world PvP, too. Two debuffs.

Flying Debuff
You deal 90% less damage and healing to other players for 5 minutes after flying.

PvP Debuff
You recently engaged in PvP combat and cannot fly for 5 minutes.

This doesn't completely fix world PvP; it still allows players to "opt-out" of world PvP by staying in the air. It doesn't allow ganking, which is a key component of world PvP. But it's a better compromise than allowing dozens of players to fly in and dive-bomb world PvP already ongoing, or vanish/feign/shadowmeld and fly away to escape at will.

I came up with something similar:

The solution:

Re-enable flight and add buffs/debuffs to mounts.

Flying mount: Vertigo - Years of sky travel has left you with a slightly weaker constitution, and leaves you a bit disoriented when landing. You're left to fend for yourself until this buff wears off after 5 minutes. Side effects include: increase in summon/cast time to remount from 1.5 secs to 5 secs, casting/attack time is slowed by 25% from the disorientation, and as a PvP target (if you are already flagged for combat), you are worth double the HP if you have the debuff when you are killed, thus painting a bigger target on your back for attackers. In addition, gathering herbs and ore now takes twice as long to harvest. This debuff can stack up to 6 times, but only increases the time of the buff, not the penalties of it.

Ground mount: Full Speed Ahead - While using a ground mount, or a flying mount on the ground (any lift off cancels FSA and adds Vertigo instantly), you are a force to be reckoned with. Your mount is given a 15% speed increase over and above any other stats, cast time is reduced from 1.5 secs to .75 secs, and your casting/attack speed is increased by 25% and daze is reduced to 0. While you are still worth your full HP for PvP, your gathering times can now be done from your ground mount, and harvest times are cut in half, thus doubling your gathering speed. The more times you mount and dismount, up to 6 times, the buff time will stack, but the benefits do not increase with the stack.

This would eliminate the need for the use of something like Stables, and give ground mounts a competitive speed edge. Simultaneously, it allows players to take to the skies, but with some heavy penalties for doing so. This would mean anyone choosing to fly would have to wait up to 30 minutes before using a flying mount or suffer continually from Vertigo, thus slowing their combat, gathering speed, and mount time.

[Schizoide]

Same basic idea, but I definitely don't want PvE penalties.

[-Superman-]

Same basic idea, but I definitely don't want PvE penalties.

Just makes sense to find a better way to balance flight. With my proposal, it puts the use of flying mounts on ANY server under specific conditions, but certainly a bit more strenuous on PvP realms.

[Schizoide]

The end result would be to cause me to fly where I want to go, perch on a tree or something, and watch netflix for 5 minutes until the debuff wore off.

It's different for PvP, because your target won't stick around.

[-Superman-]

The end result would be to cause me to fly where I want to go, perch on a tree or something, and watch netflix for 5 minutes until the debuff wore off.

It's different for PvP, because your target won't stick around.

Given that most long flights take at least that long, it should not be a huge concern. If you are not willing to compromise and do whatever it takes to get flight unlocked on Draenor, you probably don't need it as bad as you think. Those of us who actually WANT it back are willing to explore options.

[Sweetpeaz]

Same basic idea, but I definitely don't want PvE penalties.

That's gonna be a problem though, because the only reason for no flight is improve the bottom line by either prolonging content or reducing development time.

[Maneo]

Thank you, friend. Logical thinking on the internet. Who would have thought such a thing was possible, right?

Also, since flying is in fact a well established part of the game, if they allowed it in Draenor I most definitely would utilize it. Though I still stand by my opinion that the game would be better if player flight had never been incorporated.

Ya a discussion on if flight should have been ever added to the game is a reasonable one, but unfortunately that ship has long since sailed.

I really wish more people could use logic as you, however the vast majority of the anti fly boys seem to be devoid of it.

Still thinking it is due to lack of blood flow to the brain for the massive hard on they have for the possibility of WPVP, cause lets face it that is always what it comes down to in this thread. Most the champions for no flight are the world PVP folks.

Nevermind that the vast majority of the WoW player base is on PVE realms, or on servers so horribly imbalanced they may as well be PVE realms and have little to no interest in that mini game and get their PVP fix in instanced content.

Personally I say remove flight from all the PVP realms, but the vast majority don't like that idea either. Probably because they know deep down that if that were to happen you would have a mass exodus from all the PVP servers and Blizz would make a ton of cash.

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That's gonna be a problem though, because the only reason for no flight is improve the bottom line by either prolonging content or reducing development time.

Yes and no. No flight was a experiment yes, but only in the sense to see if the revenue lost would be greater then the savings gained from being able to develop all future content w/out flight.

The real kicker is removing flight had absolutely nothing to do w/making a better game, and all about saving Blizz resources and reducing the bottom line. Said it before I will say it again. This has to be the only industry where the consumer will champion for the producer to have a reduced work load, and costs and still gladly pay more for the product.

[Destruktion]

Up for discussion. The game has at best been a rollercoaster for most of it's duration. Cataclysm was abysmal, Pandaria was okay, WoD is currently shaping up to be the most lackluster and horrid expansion so far. So your full "everything is constantly getting better" falls flat from the very beginning.

"Everything is constantly getting better" is not the same as "the general trend [is one of improvement]."

1. They are? Didn't Blizz just say not 2 months ago they are still working to improve them? Why should they have to be improved? They're NEW.
2. Class balance could be achieved if racials were not a part of the equation.
3. Some of them were awesome... others were complete messes. Even Blizz said they would be making more model improvements in 6.1 and 6.2, so they acknowledged that too.

The game has improved... but their methods have degraded. They fuck it up, then they improve it, rather than just improving it the first time. As for flight itself, or the lack thereof, I'm still waiting to see if Tanan makes it to 6.2, offering the window needed to unlock flight in the original zones.

1. It's clearly a balance of scenic travel vs. fast and efficient travel, with a much greater emphasis on the latter in this expansion.
2. Perhaps with complete homogenization, but who really wants that? PvP is the source of the problem here, not racials per se.
3. All subjective. New models came, their reception was mixed, but Blizzard still kept their word.

[-Superman-]

1. It's clearly a balance of scenic travel vs. fast and efficient travel, with a much greater emphasis on the latter in this expansion.
2. Perhaps with complete homogenization, but who really wants that? PvP is the source of the problem here, not racials per se.
3. All subjective. New models came, their reception was mixed, but Blizzard still kept their word.

1. Speed may have increased, but I still circle every zone and landing. It should be lift off, face the right direction, fly, land. Leaving the garrison alone means flying the wrong way for 5 seconds and out of the way for another 10. Not much really, unless you do that 4 times daily for 2 years. Then the garrison flight path alone wastes hours of gameplay time over the expansion.

2. All classes already have another class they share a skill with. Nascar doesn't have 24 different types of cars. They have one set of guidelines 24 types of cars are allowed to use. We don't have Nascar. We've got a crash up derby in Alabama.

3. If you are just going to dismiss opinions because of subjectivity, then I dismiss your opinion about my opinion.

[Destruktion]

2. All classes already have another class they share a skill with. Nascar doesn't have 24 different types of cars. They have one set of guidelines 24 types of cars are allowed to use. We don't have Nascar. We've got a crash up derby in Alabama.

3. If you are just going to dismiss opinions because of subjectivity, then I dismiss your opinion about my opinion.

We don't need to have all classes of one specialization be the same thing but painted a different color. It's only PvP that changes that.

I'm dismissing your point that Blizzard didn't deliver on new models, which was used to assert that there is no point in looking foward to the next xpac because Blizzard can't deliver. They clearly did deliver, you just don't like the finished product.

[Deleted]

That's gonna be a problem though, because the only reason for no flight is improve the bottom line by either prolonging content or reducing development time.

There really is no basis in fact to back this up.

[-Superman-]

We don't need to have all classes of one specialization be the same thing but painted a different color. It's only PvP that changes that.

I'm dismissing your point that Blizzard didn't deliver on new models, which was used to assert that there is no point in looking foward to the next xpac because Blizzard can't deliver. They clearly did deliver, you just don't like the finished product.

Blood elves say hello. But, we're off topic.

No flight was a bad decision, and I can't see supporting poor design choices when there were so many other options to choose from, including taking the time to balance flight and make a usable system.

[Barkloud]

Or unsub. /10ch

Exactly. I just reinstalled gw2 and was suprized how many people were playing. Gw2 really puts into perspective how broken travel is in wow. Gw2 does not even have mounts, yet I can get around better as a newbie in that game than I can with a 8 year old char in wow.

Travel restrictions need to be lifted in draenor