Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Deleted]

Last time this was raised in Trade chat, people laughed and accused the person of trolling. A lot of people DONT know.

That's the funny stuff, I've seen claims by game developers that the people on the forums in generally aren't a good picture of the community on large, because they are usually more dedicated, invested, "hardcore" and often better players. So yes the guy crying about something pretty basic, he's still quite likely a better player than the bottom feeders in game.

So the true backlash of no flying, garrison gutting and so on is yet to come and I'm very much looking forward to it. This whole thing might very well come crashing down burning and I hope to have a front seat in watching it unfold.

Eh, it's mostly users like urasim and cheesesandwich that seem to enjoy trolling every argument with a pathetic straw man. But I already realized that anyone who has more than 20 posts in this thread just comes onto these boards to blow off steam rather than hold a constructive argument.

And you can say that on what basis exactly? So far all you do is attack, insult and harass other posters. There's literarely nothing else you've done so far. Either you're doing this on purpose or you're a hypocrite of immense proportions.

Trolling at its finest. THIS is why no one takes this thread seriously.

Aww, how cute. Everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a troll. You really should try harder, this is extremely see through and wont fly.

[Gaagii]

And you can say that on what basis exactly? So far all you do is attack, insult and harass other posters. There's literarely nothing else you've done so far. Either you're doing this on purpose or you're a hypocrite of immense proportions.

Name one instance where I attacked someone. Almost every post in this thread I have made was directed towards my opinion on no flight and I like the change. Eventually I suggested they play a different game if they like flying around so much. Nothing wrong with that, eh? But judging by your rash attitude, I don't expect you to comprehend any of it.

And even if I did insult another poster, how is that any different than how you are responding to me now?

Aww, how cute. Everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a troll. You really should try harder, this is extremely see through and wont fly.

That post made absolutely no sense with what I wrote. Do you even read what you quote?

[urasim]

That's why I put the sith hamster on ignore very long time ago.

OT: The pre expac event must be coming in a month since we're two months away from launch date, I heard you're not allowed to fly on the zone during the event so I'm hoping that's where a lot of players will just learn what expects them for the next 4-6 months in the best of the scenario.

I surprised we don't have the pre-launch event yet... I'm pretty sure that flying is allowed for the event. But, that's just a guess from doing it on beta.

Eh, it's mostly users like urasim and cheesesandwich that seem to enjoy trolling every argument with a pathetic straw man. But I already realized that anyone who has more than 20 posts in this thread just comes onto these boards to blow off steam rather than hold a constructive argument.

Trolling at its finest. THIS is why no one takes this thread seriously.

Can you post a single time where I strawman someone? Accusing me of trolling, but you can't seem to back it up. I don't understand how you aren't infracted yet with all you posts that contribute absolutely nothing to the thread.

[Lincoln Lawyer]

This sounds horrible. It's like logging in tomorrow and finding out that LFG tool has been removed and I'm forced to go back spamming trade for an hour and HS/summoned back when someone drops group. I fucking hate shit like this, wasn't pandaria enough? Why do they enjoy pissing people off?

[Ninepenny]

That this thread has reached 900 pages says a lot for the importance of whats being discussed. It is, and will continue to be, a sore point.

It's been practically the same people for the last 1/3 of this thread.

[Tziva]

Knock it off.

Discuss the topic, not each other.

[Dormie]

Immerison is diferent for everyone.... what makes you feel more immersive in the game maybe annoys the hell out of others and vice versa...

and its feels more realistic to you ,that you can fly in a video game, while at the same time you are mounted on a dragon.... logic.

and btw , after all wasnt the point of all your posts in this thread that no fly would put more ppl in the world? seems its not working too good, but i know that you are going to say beta is beta

"Immersion is different for everyone"Mostly true, but there is still a standard for things that most would find immersive. And the popular opinion I've seen is that flying is immersion BREAKING. People keep saying things are opinions or subjective like it discounts a point. Everything is subjective. If it was completely subjective how would Devs ever design for immersion?

Yes. It feels realistic. I feel like you're playing dumb here. Things being realistic to a point is what keeps things immersive. Things like gravity and other similarities to our world being in the game keep it realistic. There are things like shooting through the ground that are unrealistic because they kind of defy logic. Flying is more in that category IMO.

And no that's never really been my point.

It seems to me you are talking about two different kinds of immersion. The first one is to dip or submerge someone into something as a liquid. And seems to be closer to what you are talking about when you talk about being close to the world instead of above it.


The second one is more what I would consider immersion and when I speak of immersion in rpgs. I don't want to just be dipped into WoW, I want to be placed into a world that seems to me realistic.

You obviously get what I mean by realistic since you say it for yourself here.

You state that flying doesn't seem as realistic as being on the ground. I don't really understand this line of logic becaue heroes riding flying creatures and/or vehicles have been part of fantasy for ages. From Greek Mythology to The Arabian Nights to Lord of the Rings.

Right but not in the way we have it. In those stories most people don't have their own personal flying things that they can use anywhere at anytime. Even in the WoW novels people travel almost entirely by ground. It's just our nature, being airborn all the time is just unrealistic and unnatural feeling. The way it is now our toons themselves might as well be able to fly.

It seems to me when many anti flight players speak of immersion they mean it as in dunked in a liquid of some sort, not something in terms of realism or believable world. Over the years WoW has been infested with meta-game nonsense. Mods, stats, character auditors, players known for their ability to min/max, alternate UIs. All of this stuff is the antithesis to immersion, and that doesn't even approach things Blizzard does in game play to encourage meta-gaming. So while I wouldn't say a player who says flying is not immersive is dishonest, I do think they are misinformed about what immersion in a RPG is.

I think you want to believe that in order to discount credibility. I mean immersion both ways. Being IN the environment of the WoW world and face to face with it all, touching it under your feet, is more immersive than flying over it at 310% speed just getting a view of the landscape. So, when you give your second definition of immersion, "realism or a believable world", you can see how zipping around everywhere can seem unbelievable. Especially considering that we seem to be the only few in the game that can do it.

[rebecca191]

A dragon being unable to fly for no logical story/character reason is way more immersion-breaking than flying ever could be. I never feel immersion while forced to the ground because the artificial restriction constantly reminds me and feels so unrealistic.

So what if we are the "only few" in game that can do it? Considering my character banished two Old Gods, banished Ragnaros twice, went back in time more than once, stopped Kil'jaeden from coming back into the world, killed lots of powerful dragons, killed many powerful minions of the Lich King then helped destroy the Lich King himself, helped destroy the Aspect of Death, yeah, flying really doesn't feel like a stretch at all. Isn't the story supposed to be that our character is one of the great heroes that has helped save Azeroth multiple times? (and yeah, I know all 6 million of us can't be, but you get the point....)

[Gonder]

Did I ever say that I was glad they made this decision? Questing in Pandaria recently up to 90 has reminded me how much more interesting the game was on foot, and although being up in the skies can offer some great perspectives of the environment, a flight path can somewhat simulate the same experience. I'm all in for this decision.

[rpdrichard]

I surprised we don't have the pre-launch event yet... I'm pretty sure that flying is allowed for the event. But, that's just a guess from doing it on beta.

I don't have beta access but the last pre event stream I saw had some sort of debuff that prevented you from flying in blasted lands while it lasted, not sure if this before or after you tried it, but based on blizz new philosophy I think the most likely is that we'll be grounded for it.

Did I ever say that I was glad they made this decision? Questing in Pandaria recently up to 90 has reminded me how much more interesting the game was on foot, and although being up in the skies can offer some great perspectives of the environment, a flight path can somewhat simulate the same experience. I'm all in for this decision.

Leveled on pandaria pre and post exp nerf and personally it's extremely painful to do so, cataclysm it's the worst wow expansion so far due to a lot of things but leveling it's definitely not one of them

[HeedmySpeed]

A dragon being unable to fly for no logical story/character reason is way more immersion-breaking than flying ever could be.

Can you imagine the shitstorm if they removed flying mounts out right like that?
It might be immersion breaking but it's a concession to anyone who would threaten unsubscribing.

Not being able to use your procured mounts is more of a valid reason against no-flying than what we have now which is "I'm losing my convenience."

[khalltusk]

Have we? We haven't played max level WoW without flying since Vanilla/BC how could we possibly know? Saying it's not more immersive to most without flying is borderline lying IMO. Being in the world rather than above it is always more immersive.

For me personally the game is better without flying just because of the feel it gives. Knowing you can't take off at any second gives playing a completely different feel. It just feels more realistic.

- - - Updated - - -



Sure but they also don't have much to do yet. People do that now so there's no reason to blame no flight.

I know roughly how no flying at max level will play out for me. It slows me down and thats about it. So with my travel being slower I will be less likely to be "out in the world" as frankly fuck that. I will play the parts of the game I really enjoy. Dungeons and raids. Not had much interaction with the Garrisons but I guess that will be used a lot too.

Being in the world can sometimes be more immersive but sometimes being above it looks awesome. Storm peaks is still one of my favourite zones in part due to flying (the stormy snowy mountains and feel of the whole zone is great).

Still leveling will be the same as always on a ground mound ive always come to expect that really. Max level I will just ignore over world content as from what i've seen its not really going to be much fun/nothing new.

[Deleted]

I know roughly how no flying at max level will play out for me. It slows me down and thats about it. So with my travel being slower I will be less likely to be "out in the world" as frankly fuck that.

When you fly, you spend no time in the world, AT ALL. Flying a mile above the ground is like the enterprise at warp speed...it travels, but its not in the physical universe.

Being in the world can sometimes be more immersive but sometimes being above it looks awesome. Storm peaks is still one of my favourite zones in part due to flying (the stormy snowy mountains and feel of the whole zone is great).

From personal experience, the zone feels even more so, when you travel through it on a ground mount. Did it recently to test how WoD will feel for me, only used flying mount when absolutely necessary. IT WAS EPIC! The feel of being in a massive mountainrange you describe...its multiplied by traveling between those giants on the ground.

[khalltusk]

When you fly, you spend no time in the world, AT ALL. Flying a mile above the ground is like the enterprise at warp speed...it travels, but its not in the physical universe.



From personal experience, the zone feels even more so, when you travel through it on a ground mount. Did it recently to test how WoD will feel for me, only used flying mount when absolutely necessary. IT WAS EPIC! The feel of being in a massive mountainrange you describe...its multiplied by traveling between those giants on the ground.

AFAIK storm peaks requires you to use a flying mount as the only true "ground mount" section is at the goblin base" everything else required a flying mount. As for flying mounts not being in the universe..... just dont get some people. You're still in the game world and can choose to participate in it. On a flight path you're more like the enterprise than being on a flying mount as you cannot interact with the world.

Still all No flying does to me is slow down my travel options in the over world. This makes me less likely to want to farm materials and very unlikely to want to do any over world content. I can't make a claim for how it will affect anyone else in the game but I can certainly say how I believe it will affect me.

Its not a huge deal as my most liked content does not require flying (dungeons and raids) So I will play queue craft more likely from my Garrison which I hope will be a good feature and a nice place to semi afk in

[-Superman-]

lol, people quitting over flight. Pathetically hilarious.
--- snipped spam video ---

Maybe you should stop mocking others and contribute something to the thread.

On Topic: People quit for a variety of reasons. Flight is just as legitimate as any other reason thus far.

- - - Updated - - -

Not that I want to take sides, but I'd say this is the case for most of the posters here who want flight back in. They can't accept people with different opinions to their so they keep posting rubbish until anti-flight posters give up and leave the thread.

Either that, or they somehow think Blizzard are actually reading every post in this almost 900 page thread.

As someone who gained perspective, and switched sides, as a pro-flier I spent more time in this thread dealing with anti-fliers who were adding nothing to the conversation, but passive-aggressively mocking the pro-fliers and encouraging them to leave the game and never come back. Only 2 or 3 anti-fliers have managed to make valid points without insulting or jabbing at anyone. Now, on the other side of the coin, I can see the exact same thing. There are 2 or 3 pro-fliers able to rationally defend their position, while the rest simply want to fight back against the anti-flight crowd. Had the thread been left to just those 4-6 people, all points would have been made in less than 15 pages, and the thread would have died. Instead, the video on Page 1 sparked a debate of misinterpretation which spanned for months, and had people like Bashiok, Tom Chilton, Alex Afraisabi, and others trying to "clarify" what was said. To this day, we only know 2 things are certain:

1. Flight will be left out of Draenor Zones until AT LEAST 6.1, maybe longer if there is no majority protest or reason to bring it back just then.

and

2. People who love to fly in this game, and like the speed, convenience, and freedom it offers, HATES this decision by Blizz, but has to sit by powerless (and unsubbed) and watch it unfold, all the while being pissed, and sad about the change.

Maybe if some posters would stop mocking one another, and stick to those two basic facts, this thread would finally find some semblance of order.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Maybe you should stop mocking others and contribute something to the thread.

On Topic: People quit for a variety of reasons. Flight is just as legitimate as any other reason thus far.

All reasons are legitimate. In fact I don't think either way you have legit or non-legit ways and whys to quitting. You either do or don't. Pretty simple. Where the line gets blurred is when someone takes there reason and tries to force it upon others and crusade about it to ruin other peoples day. If I want to quit over no flying. Fine. I would just peace out and be gone. I wouldn't spend months and months on forums arguing about why Blizzard forced me or why others should do the same because Blizzard is so wrong. Then lets say I did get upset to stick around and argue about it. First of all I would preach it to the folks that should hear it. Blizzard. Second I most certainly wouldn't have stuck around in the talk long enough to allow it to degenerate down to what is and isn't a legitimate reason to quit.

Just seems like going a bit to far. I quit, I quit. If I get pissy I preach until I get to my senses and realize I quit (quickly) and then just quit. Pretty simple.

[-Superman-]

All reasons are legitimate. In fact I don't think either way you have legit or non-legit ways and whys to quitting. You either do or don't. Pretty simple. Where the line gets blurred is when someone takes there reason and tries to force it upon others and crusade about it to ruin other peoples day. If I want to quit over no flying. Fine. I would just peace out and be gone. I wouldn't spend months and months on forums arguing about why Blizzard forced me or why others should do the same because Blizzard is so wrong. Then lets say I did get upset to stick around and argue about it. First of all I would preach it to the folks that should hear it. Blizzard. Second I most certainly wouldn't have stuck around in the talk long enough to allow it to degenerate down to what is and isn't a legitimate reason to quit.

Just seems like going a bit to far. I quit, I quit. If I get pissy I preach until I get to my senses and realize I quit (quickly) and then just quit. Pretty simple.

It is human nature to lash out and react to things. Some people are aggressive, others are passive. Some just don't respond at all. It is not for you, or me, to decide how someone else reacts to a situation. In fact, if you dislike their responses, you could take your own advice, and just "peace out and leave the thread" (instead of the game). Instead, you come back in week after week, with an inappropriate avatar, and drop small comments that send these same people over the top. At least you are no longer spamming the one-line phrase that used to piss everyone off. Now you appear to be contributing, or at least making the attempt.

[Geckoo]

AFAIK storm peaks requires you to use a flying mount as the only true "ground mount" section is at the goblin base" everything else required a flying mount. As for flying mounts not being in the universe..... just dont get some people. You're still in the game world and can choose to participate in it. On a flight path you're more like the enterprise than being on a flying mount as you cannot interact with the world.

Storm peaks is a map with several ground mount zones that can only be reached with a flying mount. With this i mean that just because you need them to get to the place doesn't mean that there is some kind of gameplay involved with flying mounts. That's why we can say that with the you are out of the world, because while you are flying there is no interaction with it, the sky is empty... i think the only 'danger' while flying, the only gameplay you'll find... NPC guards from the oposite faction in some cities and those fel cannons in ogri'la.

That said, yes... flight paths are even worse and should be gone or at least have other transport options. And i agree, this change was made just to slow down the player, it could have worked if the world was really something interesting to be in the first place, so far i don't see that in beta and we are almost done with beta... so i expect to see flying with the first patch. Anyway, i will always think that flying was a really bad idea, but it's too late to fix it, and you can't fix it by removing it.

[khalltusk]

Storm peaks is a map with several ground mount zones that can only be reached with a flying mount. With this i mean that just because you need them to get to the place doesn't mean that there is some kind of gameplay involved with flying mounts. That's why we can say that with the you are out of the world, because while you are flying there is no interaction with it, the sky is empty... i think the only 'danger' while flying, the only gameplay you'll find... NPC guards from the oposite faction in some cities and those fel cannons in ogri'la.

That said, yes... flight paths are even worse and should be gone or at least have other transport options. And i agree, this change was made just to slow down the player, it could have worked if the world was really something interesting to be in the first place, so far i don't see that in beta and we are almost done with beta... so i expect to see flying with the first patch. Anyway, i will always think that flying was a really bad idea, but it's too late to fix it, and you can't fix it by removing it.

Yes and you cannot complete storm peaks with a ground mount only as it was designed that way. As a player you chose to use a flying mount to get you to a general area and then used a ground mount to move about in that quest hub until it was time to fly again. Nothing wrong with that, in fact thats cool. You do interact with the environment on a flying mount in a way as you are moving in a 3D environment. I don't even fly that high most of the time its barely above the ground I can't speak for other users obviously though. There is also fuck all danger while on a ground mount too. While leveling ever in wow I can count the amount of times i've died to NPCs on one hand. To players on a PVP server yeah I died a bit more sure while using a ground mount but then PVP should not be a part of this change IMO as around 50% I think of players are on PVE servers.

Overall I think flying mounts are great and that if zone right zones work really well with them. But since we got them in TBC its too late to suddenly remove them forever. Limited time with out them should not do much harm and I can't see them ever removing their use entirely.

[-Superman-]

i think the only 'danger' while flying, the only gameplay you'll find... NPC guards from the oposite faction in some cities and those fel cannons in ogri'la.

Storm Peaks also has the mine field with Surface to Air rockets. Krasarang Wilds Domination Point has surface to air rockets over top of the daily mini-boss. Deepholm drakes in the SW corner of the map could aggro you and dismount you. Halfhill (before the nerf) had Giant Plainshawks in the Valley which you could aggro and be dismounted. The Hardend Shell allows other players to knock you off your mount. Flight over Wintergrasp (while active) dismounts you. The undead gargoyles in Scholozar basin, and the flame drakes will aggro you on a flying mount.

I am all for not flying for a patch or two, but I am still aware of certain places to avoid flying over. These are all sky mechanics which could have been pushed into every zone, keeping players on their toes. But, Blizz feels it is a waste of time. So for them, flight is all or nothing.