Garrosh's plan makes no sense from a historical military standpoint

[Arrowstormen]

I don't exactly how much Titan technology he has at his disposal, and I don't know what Titan technology has even done for us so far: in Ulduar it almost annihilated our planet, in Uldum it almost annihilated our planet again and yet we haven't acquired any new technological knowledge in the process.

His options though are just ruling Draenor, banging lots of Orcish babes and enjoying the good life.

Destroying a planet is some pretty neat tech to have if you're Garrosh. Besides that, we stopped the Zandalari from getting an awesome weapon in Mogu Vaults, and there was that Divine Bell, which I think was actually of Mogu origin, but they basically ripped off their masters somewhat.

[yetgdhfgh]

TBH its a bit too early to decide if Garrosh plan is just a desperate act of someone who is burning with vengeance or wiether he has really thought this through and has learned from his and the orcs past mistakes.

Now obviously he will lose but i do hope they dont just show him to be a clown without a real plan other than to unite a bunch of guys who dont like each other and give them weapons that they dont really know how to best use just so he can get his vengeance on Azeroth.

[Toppy]

Draenei are peaceful, but they're not weak, like pandaren. They're strong fighters bolstered by the Light with advanced technologies and good leadership. They fought the Burning Legion and managed not to get completely wiped out, a feat in itself. The only reason they were beaten on Draenor as well was probably because they were weakened after Argus and because the Orcs had been bolstered with demonic blood.

As a matter of fact, wasn't Shattrath a last remaining Draenei fortification in the events of Warcraft 3 when Illidan crosses the Dark Portal? Khadgar's familiar tells us how the Blood Elves crossed the bridge into Shattrath and how they stopped in their attack because one of their leaders wished to speak to A'dal. So that means that Draenei were still living and fighting even after Warcraft 2.

This time around they'll even receive the help of the Alliance (and Horde?), so Garrosh's new Horde will be fighting a war on two fronts: one within Draenor, and one with Nethergarde Keep's forces as well as whatever forces the Alliance and Horde leave behind to defend the Dark Portal exit.

They had been on Draenor for generations by the time the Orcs kicked their crap in.

If they were still weak, then they are never getting strong

[Arrowstormen]

The trick is: he IS stupid, Blizz just writes a bunch of secret weapons for him that he can just pull out of his back pocket seemingly at whim while the alliance apparently has no weapons R&D going on whatsoever, and then the alliance still wins! :P

Apparently Garrosh got rid of the "Gul'dan factor" in the iron horde, doesn't mean those other orc warlords are going refrain from stabbing him in the back at some point anyway (Maybe the other warlords decide demon-less war isn't working for them or something), Garrosh is a lucky idiot with plot armour, that's all, hope he dies for real in WoD...

I doubt they will go to demon-warfare with their new tools, but it seems to me like Grommash is the real leader of the Iron Horde, so Garrosh is probably under his wing as his son.

[Deleted]

I think they said the Iron Horde is a lot more powerful than the original Horde that attacked in WC2. Garrosh has been there 2 years and brought them all loads of new technology and blueprints.

I don't really see why Blizzard has gone the route of story telling where fel magic is inferior to Garrosh's machinery but I'm going to go along with it with an open opinion.

[Mehrunes]

You are ignoring a lot of important facts. The old Alliance didn't win the Second War because they "came together". They won because Gul'Dan took 1/3 of Horde forces on his tomb raider stunt, which was followed by Doomhammer sending another large chunk of Orcs to punish them (by wiping them out). It took unified Alliance to beat less than half of the Orcs that invaded Azeroth as part of the Old Horde. And it still wasn't exactly an easy win.

Now, not all Orcs joined the Old Horde and not all that did went to Azeroth. Frostwolves were exiled because they refused to drink the blood and Durotan spoke against Gul'Dan. Ner'zhul and his Shadowmoon clan didn't fancy the Old Horde much either and remained on Draenor. Thunderlord, Lightning's Blade and Bladewind clans also didn't cross the Dark Portal. Laughing Skull did, but they remained in Blasted Lands and there isn't anything indicating that they were a significant part of the Old Horde's war effort in their war across Azeroth and Lordaeron.

Now in alternate Draenor Gul'Dan has no power and has only few demon loving crazies following him. The only clan that that doesn't join the Iron Horde is the Frostwolves, which didn't join back then either. All the other clans do join, which makes the Iron Horde stronger in terms of manpower than the Old Horde. And they offset the lack of blood of Mannaroth with their superior technology, magic (they manage to create a Dark Portal on their own, with no guidance from Sargeras/Medivh or magical artifacts, as an example) and enslaving Draenor's races and wildlife (Garrosh did plenty of that back on Azeroth, with enslaved Krakens, Magnataurs and whatnot). Instead of fighting the Gronn and wasting resources, they enslave them.

And the last war didn't weaken the factions? It was a total war, waged across most of Azeroth. Night Elves suffered heavy losses because of their distance to the rest of Alliance and close proximity to Orgrimmar. That's why some of them left and joined Ragnaros and Twilight Hammer (including their second most important Arch Druid). Draenei? A new race that the old Alliance didn't have? The reason the new Alliance does have them is because the Old Horde almost wiped them out and forced them to escape. And they are doing the same to alternate Draenor Draenei again (at least before we arrive), including the death of alternate Velen.

Humans of Stormwind suffered the most losses in war against Garrosh, since they were the backbone of Alliance's army and were present on most battlefields. Theramore was wiped out. Dalaran suffered losses during the purge of Sunreavers and then fighting the Blood Elves and Thunder King's forces on the Isle of Thunder. All other human nations of the old Alliance are gone. Alterac, gone, their Syndicate survivors are mostly wiped out by now, their kingdom taken over. Kul Tiras, drifting across the seas, who knows where exactly. Arathi, gone. Their last remaining leader killed and resurrected by the Forsaken. Their capital city taken over by multiple hostile forces. Gilneas ravaged by Worgen war, then by Forsaken and their remaining people forced into exile. Their kingdom broken by Cataclysm and covered in Blight. The heir to the throne dead. Lordaeron wiped out by the Scourge and Burning Legion. Some of them broke free from Lich King's grasp as Forsaken.

High Elves almost wiped out, most of the survivors renamed themselves Blood Elves and exiled the High Elven traitorous scum. Most of the scum died later on, with the only "major" faction suffering further losses on Isle of Thunder. Gnomes blew up their city. The only Alliance race that may be stronger number wise are the Dwarves since their clans finally united.

Horde side. Blood Elves aren't extremely numerous. Neither are Trolls, which suffered greatly under Garrosh and later on under Vol'Jin's retarded command, where he sent half naked Troll idiots against True Horde's war machine at the gates of Orgrimmar. Tauren aren't numerous either, before Green Jesus saved them from the Centaurs, they faced being exterminated by them. Betrayed by Grimtotem at the start of Cataclysm, with a period of Grimtotem's takeover of Thunder Bluff.

Orcs suffered huge losses with many falling for Garrosh's idiotic ideals and being killed by the good guys, with some of the good Orcs being killed by the Kor'Kron in turn. The main point of WoD is to get the surviving Iron Horde's Orcs to join the New Horde so Metzen has enough good Orcs to mentally masturbate with.

Goblins aren't extremely numerous and they tend to blow themselves up. Forsaken are a powerhouse within the New Horde at the moment, but they are still only a part of old Kingdom of Lordaeron (with a dash of other races), a kingdom that would have been destroyed by the Old Horde if not for Gul'Dan's betrayal. And they won't participate much as usual (and otherwise remain in lore-vacuum). Especially during the Iron's Horde initial assault, where their only target will be Stormwind. Stormwind's forced being depleted is greatly beneficial for Sylvanas. And no, Sylvanas' Val'kyr can so far only raise humans and maybe Blood Elves/High Elves. Death Knights on the other hand weren't shown to be able to raise big amounts of undead. And considering Alliance's attitude towards undead, as visible in the example of the Forsaken even before they joined the Horde, I'd say Alliance Death Knights are not the most loyal bunch.

And what proof do we have that New Horde will get Blackfuse's toys in WoD?

And that is all after a decade of war against: a) each other; b) Illidari; c) Burning Legion; d) Dark Horde; e) Trolls of all colors and flavors; f) Scourge; g) Old Gods and affiliates; h) Thunder King; j) random other crap.

[Arrowstormen]

TBH its a bit too early to decide if Garrosh plan is just a desperate act of someone who is burning with vengeance or wiether he has really thought this through and has learned from his and the orcs past mistakes.

Now obviously he will lose but i do hope they dont just show him to be a clown without a real plan other than to unite a bunch of guys who dont like each other and give them weapons that they dont really know how to best use just so he can get his vengeance on Azeroth.

The Iron Horde sounds like a very real threat, and like they've got pretty good control of their tech, since our first big raid target is their R&D Clan. Even if Garrosh sucked as a warlord, there's still seven of them.

[Zuben]

The might is in the numbers. The Old Horde was incredibly vast, while pretty much all races in our present time have faced a calamity of some sort that's taken out a huge chunk of their populace. Look at Thalassian elves for example, just 1% of their old number consisted of all of Kael's forces in Outland + the Scryers. Now take those forces and multiply them by 100, assume the humans and dwarves were at least as, if not more, numerous as the elves during the Second War. That's a huge force, no?

Welp, the Old Horde pretty much steamrolled through them until Gul'dan's shenanigans turned the tide of the war. And now they're going against our diminished present day armies. No dragons or death knights? They have cannon-mounted Gronns and many other sorts of warmachines. This is a much better setting for Garrosh's ambition than his True Horde pipe dream could ever hope to be.

[Deleted]

This is the guy who turned every other faction on the planet against him (including his own) and thought he was going to win.

Garrosh is not the best tactician on Azeroth.

Pretty much the description of Hitler...

[Toppy]

Pretty much the description of Hitler...

Hitler may have been an evil fella, but he was by no means a poor tactician. That was part of the reason his people did so well despite being out numbered.

[Shemsu Hov]

Didn't the Alliance loose 100,000 troops in Northrend? On top of that, Humans are the only race that use agriculture(Worgen use to but now they have a tree). The Forsaken rely on dead humans for numbers as the Val'kry(Seplling?) can only bring dead humans back to life...ish. They brought Sylvanas back because of a pact or contract, something like that. So in short, we've suffered major casualties, a bunch in Outland, probably a lot in Vanilla, a shit tonne in Northrend, probably a very large amount of civilian deaths in Cata, plus troop deaths, and then probably a shit tonne during SoO. When you need the combined might of two factions, chances are you all died a lot. I'm sure that if SoO were a movie you would see trolls, tauren, night elves, blood elves, and humans getting picked off left right and centre.

But to counter my argument: orcs are tribal and there's a lot of fighting amongst them prior to any event, as well as that bird empire, ogre empire, and a completely primal, savage land. And to top it all off, I'm sure orcs have a long gestation period due to their size.


Who the fuck am I kidding? Blizzard probably doesn't know how to write a lost battle on the player side unless it's between Alliance and Horde and even then they harldy ever say someone lost(Southern Barrens is still a blood bath. I'm sure we're at about 5 million NPC deaths). Maybe, just maybe Blizzard will write in some battle where we are straight up slaughtered, our characters taken captive until some Panda comes to rescue us.

[Tenjen]

there were many human Kingdoms at the time too

The forces we have now are remnants after the demonic/undead invasion. Theres just SW left now in any major capacity. We've had an old god reappearance, another undead invasion, interfactional fighting, the world going through a cataclysm, immediately followed by a massive war that cost both sides. (mehrune really does cover everything)

On the other side the old horde has its full planetary force, and are imbued with BlackFuse's legacy, his advanced tech that outstrips what we have.

not that we aren't weak despite all those things, the survivors are tougher for it, but the loss and damage has taken its toll and we're fighting them on their turf. They're not quite as broken up and backstabbing as before though. the major problems that took them down last time (guldan screwing them and nerzhul being a manipulated fool) arent around anymore and those are the real reasons they lost against the humans.

really iam just repeating mehrunes stuff.

[Shemsu Hov]

To add to my statement, I'm sure the Iron Horde has more than just siege machines and cannon Gronns. If I was showing off WoD I wouldn't even give the players a glance at their full military might. Have any of you guys seen the concept art for that new Orcish battleship? That thing could take out a Destroyer.

[Arrowstormen]

To add to my statement, I'm sure the Iron Horde has more than just siege machines and cannon Gronns. If I was showing off WoD I wouldn't even give the players a glance at their full military might. Have any of you guys seen the concept art for that new Orcish battleship? That thing could take out a Destroyer.

Hadn't even thought about gunships. This will be the first time we've fought a none-faction owned gunship probably.

[purebalance]

Here's my thing. I imagine he gets away from us SUDDENLY. So how is all this tech getting there? I mean I doubt he'll have time after getting sprung by Zaela to go hmmm black shirt or red shirt.... hmmm this war machine or that war machine.... lets pack everything neatly now....

So yeah how is all this tech getting there.

[xChurch]

I wonder if the first things through the Dark Portal will be massive iron stars...

[Toppy]

Here's my thing. I imagine he gets away from us SUDDENLY. So how is all this tech getting there? I mean I doubt he'll have time after getting sprung by Zaela to go hmmm black shirt or red shirt.... hmmm this war machine or that war machine.... lets pack everything neatly now....

So yeah how is all this tech getting there.

He is bringing more than just Zaela, and apparently he has a general idea how this stuff works: maybe got some blueprints. His dragon buddy was at SoO after all.

[Mehrunes]

(...)defeat the Draenei using cannons and iron even though they have inter dimensional space ships (but I guess cannon balls are the weakness of that technology).

The only inter dimensional space ship that Draenei have at that point in time is Oshu'gun, which is kinda crashed. Tempest Keep arrived in Outland. As in, after it already became Outland.

I would expect so. He's not stupid. He's not the best tactician but he obviously has something up this sleeve that we don't know about yet.

Except opposing demonic corruption is one of the cornerstones of his ideology. Whatever he has up his sleeve, it's not working with Burning Legion.

Draenei are peaceful, but they're not weak, like pandaren. They're strong fighters bolstered by the Light with advanced technologies and good leadership. They fought the Burning Legion and managed not to get completely wiped out, a feat in itself. The only reason they were beaten on Draenor as well was probably because they were weakened after Argus and because the Orcs had been bolstered with demonic blood.

As a matter of fact, wasn't Shattrath a last remaining Draenei fortification in the events of Warcraft 3 when Illidan crosses the Dark Portal? Khadgar's familiar tells us how the Blood Elves crossed the bridge into Shattrath and how they stopped in their attack because one of their leaders wished to speak to A'dal. So that means that Draenei were still living and fighting even after Warcraft 2.

This time around they'll even receive the help of the Alliance (and Horde?), so Garrosh's new Horde will be fighting a war on two fronts: one within Draenor, and one with Nethergarde Keep's forces as well as whatever forces the Alliance and Horde leave behind to defend the Dark Portal exit.

The Draenei of old were almost wiped out from the face of the universe by the Old Horde. Then they suffered further losses against Illdiari and Kael'thas's forces. They did not fight with Burning Legion, they ran away from it. And you expect this remaining handful of Draenei to be a significant factor in modern day Alliance's war efforts against the Iron Horde? When the Iron Horde is destroying alternate Draenor Draenei even without Mannaroth's blood empowering them?

Shattrath was destroyed in Draenei-Orc war. Surviving Draenei hid in various parts of Draenor, with some later escaping to Azeroth on Exodar. A bunch of priests led by Ishanah were residing in Sattrath's ruins after the destruction of Draenor and their prayers is what drew Sha'tar to the city after their arrival in Outland.

[Shink]

Draenor/Azeroth's greatest orc leaders, technology that came from after their time, an organized force that is easily 100x over the orc population that lives in current time



We lose

[Frozenbeef]

How? We know at least one of the clans doesn't even side with him. He's basically intending to come through the portal with a bunch of orcs and take on the entire military might of Azeroth.

while i guess that's the reason we are fighting them on their planet and not ours, because they weren't strong enough to push through :P