Crimean referendum

[Alexinho]

Since no one made a thread about it:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014


What I don't get is why the West is so enraged at this.

Isn't the point of independence that you get to choose your own fate and not rely on others to do it for you?

[Deleted]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...alert-in-drill

Here's a gigantic thread where Crimea's referendum is discussed as well.

[Rukentuts]

What I don't get is why the West is so enraged at this.

Really? Your own link says why.

According to Article 3 of the Law of Ukraine, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in Crimea.[84]

[Vivapin8]

According to Article 3 of the Law of Ukraine, territorial changes can only be approved via a referendum where all the citizens of Ukraine are allowed to vote, including those that do not reside in Crimea.

U know man there is something wrong with forcing people, to stay part of a country they don´t like!! Most of the times this happens in history, it ends with bloodshed (revolution/terrorism)

[Deleted]

Because the referendum was done during a military occupation of the Crimea, also, I don't buy 93% or whatever it was, if it would have been like 50-70% I might have bought it, when are dictators going to learn that there is something wrong with numbers at 90+ %?

[Wilian]

I remember this case in Yugoslav in late 90s where people wanted to be their own nation.. That nation was western leaning of course.. What was the result? Against UN resolution, NATO bombed the shit out of Yugoslav.

Do you know what the case is here? 100% same, except Russia hasn't bombed Kiev. Irony, the sweet smell of it.

[Deleted]

I remember this case in Yugoslav in late 90s where people wanted to be their own nation.. That nation was western leaning of course.. What was the result? Against UN resolution, NATO bombed the shit out of Yugoslav.

Do you know what the case is here? 100% same, except Russia hasn't bombed Kiev. Irony, the sweet smell of it.

Ignoring they tried to stop a massive genocide but whatever, two or more sides to each story I guess..

[Rukentuts]

I remember this case in Yugoslav in late 90s where people wanted to be their own nation.. That nation was western leaning of course.. What was the result? Against UN resolution, NATO bombed the shit out of Yugoslav.

Do you know what the case is here? 100% same, except Russia hasn't bombed Kiev. Irony, the sweet smell of it.

1) There's no massacres.
2) Nobody in the West annexed part of Yugoslavia.

These situations are not the same.

[Vivapin8]

Because the referendum was done during a military occupation of the Crimea, also, I don't buy 93% or whatever it was, if it would have been like 50-70% I might have bought it, when are dictators going to learn that there is something wrong with numbers at 90+ %?

Still man the point still stands we know around 60% is russian and that those people no longer whant to be part of ukraine, so the option are to let em free or force em to be part of something they no longer like, with the highly possibility of bloodshed.

[MerinPally]

Still man the point still stands we know around 60% is russian and that those people no longer whant to be part of ukraine, so the option are to let em free or force em to be part of something they no longer like, with the highly possibility of bloodshed.

The point doesn't still stand, at all. You're arguing that the result of an illegitimate vote should be allowed to pass because it was so one sided.

[Wilian]

1) There's no massacres.
2) Nobody in the West annexed part of Yugoslavia.

These situations are not the same.

I guess I was too happy with 100% claim. Admittably, 100% is not correct term to use. Crimean however is Russian county in all other respects if not for borders. Krustchev and his Ukrainian crony buddies from 50s made a poor job by giving the region out in faith that Soviet Union would never fall.

Crimeans never wanted to be part of Ukraine, majority of Soviet leaders didn't want it to be part of Ukraine (understanding geopolitical placement) but Krutschev didn't care.

Crimea wanted independence already in 1991 at the fall of Soviet Union but Ukraine illegally blocked that referendum before hastily making new constitution disallowing such. This is just continuation to it and as western people we have no moral high ground in any front.

[MerinPally]

I guess I was too happy with 100% claim. Admittably, 100% is not correct term to use. Crimean however is Russian county in all other respects if not for borders. Krustchev and his Ukrainian crony buddies from 50s made a poor job by giving the region out in faith that Soviet Union would never fall.

Crimeans never wanted to be part of Ukraine, majority of Soviet leaders didn't want it to be part of Ukraine (understanding geopolitical placement) but Krutschev didn't care.

Crimea wanted independence already in 1991 at the fall of Soviet Union but Ukraine illegally blocked that referendum before hastily making new constitution disallowing such. This is just continuation to it and as western people we have no moral high ground in any front.

Which part of this suddenly means that you can ignore the rules this time, I'm not seeing it. There is due process to go through, so you go through it. You're arguing that someone that isn't you, did something 20 years ago that was against the rules and also a different situation. Therefore, you should be able to break the rules right now.

[Vivapin8]

The point doesn't still stand, at all. You're arguing that the result of an illegitimate vote should be allowed to pass because it was so one sided.

Eh i argue over the number we know for sure, even without the vote and the consequence it can have to force the people to stay. (i have no idea if the vote % was false or not)

BTW: what will happen ones reconquistaem-movement ww.humanevents.com/2006/07/27/the-emreconquistaem-movement-mexicos-plan-for-the-american-southwest becomes a real posibility?? (i don´t think the us is gona go for a second civil war)

(Add a "w" to the link lol)

[Easo]

Meh, I was expecting referendum to have 146% votes.
Its only almost 100%.
P.S.
Its farce. And those, who voted, well, lets see how exactly their lives will improve... not.

[Hyve]

Because the referendum was done during a military occupation of the Crimea, also, I don't buy 93% or whatever it was, if it would have been like 50-70% I might have bought it, when are dictators going to learn that there is something wrong with numbers at 90+ %?

While I agree 90%+ is rather high, don't forget that the Crimean region was Russian not that long ago. A large chunk of the population will feel very Russian by nature.

[MerinPally]

Eh i argue over the number we know for sure, even without the vote and the consequence it can have to force the people to stay. (i have no idea if the vote % was false or not)

BTW: what will happen ones reconquistaem-movement ww.humanevents.com/2006/07/27/the-emreconquistaem-movement-mexicos-plan-for-the-american-southwest becomes a real posibility?? (i don´t think the us is gona go for a second civil war)

(Add a "w" to the link lol)

I don't know what you're saying, the language barrier makes it hard. Look - the % doesn't matter. The vote means nothing, because it's not legal. It doesn't matter if 1% or 100% voted for it, it means absolutely nothing. It's like those petitions with 100000 thousands signatures to deport Justin Bieber. It's just bullshit and a waste of time.

With regards to your link - it won't become a real possibility. That link is fucking hilarious as well. A likely spanish person shouting at a german that they aren't a real american. Dat irony.

[Nefarious Tea]

Right, because with 25,000 Russian troops literally in your front yard, you're going to vote against Russia.

[Spray]

Since no one made a thread about it:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014


What I don't get is why the West is so enraged at this.

Isn't the point of independence that you get to choose your own fate and not rely on others to do it for you?

Really? So, let's say, Spain introduces its military to France and they march into Paris. I mean - it's cool! Because they give them a choice too.

"You can vote whether you want Paris to stay with France, or, you know, be a part of Spain! I don't know why you're enraged, we are giving you a choice!"

And I mean it - REALLY? XXI century, yet political borders mean shit to some and they will still try to convince everyone that they are being generous with that decision, "they have a choice!". Well, maybe ask Paris if they want to be a part of Spain as well! I mean, who the fuck knows! Who cares about political territories and sovereignty, let every land in the world vote on what country they want to belong to!

That'd be fun.

This, and the fact that they have simply no rights to invoke such voting, it's illegal and, therefore, not legally valid.

[Sunseeker]

U know man there is something wrong with forcing people, to stay part of a country they don´t like!! Most of the times this happens in history, it ends with bloodshed (revolution/terrorism)

Because the people who want to leave often want to take more than just "their area" and even when they do limit themselves to "their area" they are also taking the homes and property of people who don't want to go. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe that Crimea is 100% Russian-aligned.

[Spray]

I guess I was too happy with 100% claim. Admittably, 100% is not correct term to use. Crimean however is Russian county in all other respects if not for borders. Krustchev and his Ukrainian crony buddies from 50s made a poor job by giving the region out in faith that Soviet Union would never fall.

Crimeans never wanted to be part of Ukraine, majority of Soviet leaders didn't want it to be part of Ukraine (understanding geopolitical placement) but Krutschev didn't care.

Crimea wanted independence already in 1991 at the fall of Soviet Union but Ukraine illegally blocked that referendum before hastily making new constitution disallowing such. This is just continuation to it and as western people we have no moral high ground in any front.

The fact that someone at some point in the past broke the rules against you doesn't mean you have a one free coupon for breaking rules against him. Seriously.

A lot has changed since those times, I am quite sure the humanity matured a lot, drew conclusions from the past events and moved on.

What's happening now in Crimea case is like a dark-age flashback.