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  1. #41
    Actually, I'm 100% positive that MoP increased the number of tanks - you only need to put yourself in a queue to prove that. Healers, I'd estimate remained about the same or increased slightly as well. Both can be attributed to the ease of gearing up, more focus on their DPS contribution, and the proliferation of the LFR and random-queue system, which makes people want to take the option that gives them the shortest queue time more often.

    WoD will probably increase each further, because getting gear for the role is significantly easier without having to have specialized gear, and by making gear change primary stats such that those with DPS specs with different ones (Enhance, Ret, etc) will be able to gear up as easily as same-primary offspecs (Elemental, Balance, etc).

    Maybe we have seen, and will continue to see fewer tanks and healers out in the world - because the same works the opposite way too (why quest as a Holy Paladin when you can just grab a 2h, keep your normal gear on, and the majority of your gearing for switching to Ret is done?) - but that doesn't mean there will be fewer tanks or healers for situations where tanks and healers are good to have.
    Shandaren, Brewmaster/Recruitment Officer of <Might> of US-Zul'jin (14/14H, 3 days/10 hours per week).

  2. #42
    There's a difference between making tanking and healing frustrating, and making tanking and healing fun.

    Blizzard always goes for "frustrating." Then when that fails they reset the dials to "boring/easy."

    So, I think, it will get worse before it gets better, except it isn't getting better.

    It will never, ever be more fun to tank or heal than it is to DPS. Ever.

  3. #43
    The removal of meaningful active threat generation ruined tanking for me. Pointless to play when all you have to do is do damage like everyone else.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Deruyter View Post
    This is how I see things right now and how I think (read fear) things will be in WoD.

    The gameplay of Mists of Pandaria had some influence on the decreasing number of Tanks and healers because:
    - Daily questing is most efficient as dps
    - Scenario's favour (mostly) 3x dps
    - There were very few 5 man dungeons between 86-90
    - Hardly any reason to run heroic 5 man dungeons at 90
    - Playing a Tank in LFR puts a target on you for frustrated people.

    Now in WoD, I expect less reason to play as a tank or healer because:
    - All of the things mentioned for MoP
    - No flying, so world pvp will ensue and you will quest as dps.
    - EVEN FEWER dungeons! (yet 5 more levels to bridge).
    - You will have to fight for nodes/herbs more often because you can't fly (or fly away).
    - Giant world pvp zone will not favour Tanking in general.
    Tanks will do 75 percent of the DPS of, uh, DPS, when out in the world questing. Given that you also get that huge boost from not dying, and not really having to worry about dying, I expect this to make your first "why still not" reason go away -- questing as a tank is no longer an insane thing to do.

    World PvP is only a thing on PvP servers, or if you flag, and PvE servers will have a stronger state (eg: never pvp flag me) to avoid it. You are right that it may discourage people from playing tanks on PvP servers, because tanks get killed more often, but, uh, I kind of feel like you got what you asked for. Besides, this is 90-100, right? Pandaria was not CRZ during levelling, and most PvP players gravitate to servers like Illidan with the 97:3 ratio of Horde vs Alliance characters. Unless you are worried about your own faction, world PvP in current zones mostly isn't a thing.

    We know about dungeons at launch, and know that they are planning to release more as the expansion progresses, and we also know nothing about how much XP is required to get to 100 -- but, honestly, levelling dungeons is what is gonna turn away tanks and healers? I really don't find that credible. Now, a shortage of max-level dungeons might, but the layout for progression given suggests that this isn't going to be the thing that you seem to think.

    So, yeah, I think your concerns are overblown.

  5. #45
    As far as heals, from what I understand they are removing/reducing a lot CC abilities, if true it will make heals, for PVP anyway, even more god like thus likely increase their number by a great deal.

  6. #46
    The Unstoppable Force Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    There's a difference between making tanking and healing frustrating, and making tanking and healing fun.

    Blizzard always goes for "frustrating." Then when that fails they reset the dials to "boring/easy."

    So, I think, it will get worse before it gets better, except it isn't getting better.

    It will never, ever be more fun to tank or heal than it is to DPS. Ever.
    Never say never. It's usually not a good idea.
    Blizzard do not destroy Jaina Proudmoore's character. Make her who she once was, not full of rage and vengeance.,If you are curious about me or about my writing aspirations, feel free to pst me. Paladin-Sorcerer at your service! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...htsongg/simple https://twitter.com/Aeluron1989

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    The removal of meaningful active threat generation ruined tanking for me. Pointless to play when all you have to do is do damage like everyone else.
    I never really understood this complaint. Threat generation was pretty much just doing damage to enemies. The whole reason I never played a tank as my main before MoP was because the previous iterations always just felt like DPS classes with really simple rotations - it's only recently that tanks (in my opinion) have started to feel like they specialize in defense.

    They replaced threat generation being the challenge for tanking with active mitigation/self-healing/cooldown usage - that is, instead of focusing entirely on keeping things attacking you and then putting your life in the hands of the healers, you focus on keeping yourself alive. Some people don't like that style of gameplay and that's perfectly fine - it's not because tanks "only DPS".
    Shandaren, Brewmaster/Recruitment Officer of <Might> of US-Zul'jin (14/14H, 3 days/10 hours per week).

  8. #48
    I think healers may decline, but tanks will remain roughly the same amount. Most tanks do not have the patience to sit through LFR, which for many is their endgame. (The shift towards flex means far less tanks as the Queue times for LFR suggest after flex's introduction.) The only slight bandaid is gear working for all specs, albeit perhaps not the ideal secondary stats for one particular role/spec.

    This one time at Brand Camp, I got Singed.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    The removal of meaningful active threat generation ruined tanking for me. Pointless to play when all you have to do is do damage like everyone else.
    I only have WotLK to base most of my tanking experience with the threat generation model but I didn't enjoy that model considering it was only ever an issue during the first 30 seconds or so, then you can semi-afk and not have to worry about losing threat to a non-tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamanberry View Post
    I never really understood this complaint. Threat generation was pretty much just doing damage to enemies. The whole reason I never played a tank as my main before MoP was because the previous iterations always just felt like DPS classes with really simple rotations - it's only recently that tanks (in my opinion) have started to feel like they specialize in defense.

    They replaced threat generation being the challenge for tanking with active mitigation/self-healing/cooldown usage - that is, instead of focusing entirely on keeping things attacking you and then putting your life in the hands of the healers, you focus on keeping yourself alive. Some people don't like that style of gameplay and that's perfectly fine - it's not because tanks "only DPS".
    Have to agree with this post. Yes I'm still dependent on healers for not dying as a tank but damn if I don't feel like I'm in more charge over myself and surroundings since Active Mitigation was introduced.

  10. #50
    I think tank numbers will be increased through the reasons you cited. They're gonna do more damage sans vengeance while being able to take a bunch of mobs. Also a lot of these are pvp server reliant. As for healers we have to see how that plays out but for the reasons you cited I don't see any gain or loss there but given the fact that gear is gonna change by the spec you're in I don't really see any problems arising from what you've cited since you can just dual spec and have sufficient gear for whatever it is you're trying to do barring the highest end of content depending on how well the gear switches with specs. Heck you can take that one warrior talent and probably do pretty good damage as a prot warrior.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    The removal of meaningful active threat generation ruined tanking for me. Pointless to play when all you have to do is do damage like everyone else.
    This is maybe relevant to LFR and 5-mans, sure.

    I know I'd rather have bigger responsibilities that come through design mechanics than simply need to spam my highest threat generating ability. Keeping threat was a useless mechanic that only took away by either forcing you to use a non-optimal rotation or forcing your raid to slow/halt/delay damage to the boss.

  12. #52
    I wouldnt mind less tanks, more call to arms bags for me rawr
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  13. #53
    Tank and healer numbers decreased? I'm not so sure of that... got any evidence? My gut feeling is that they increased. I see much less LFG CTA bags popping up now than I did in Cata. That's the closest thing to evidence I have, unless they changed the threshold.
    These forums are just a sad echo chamber, and MMO-C is more like an echo outhouse, but fortunately (or maybe I'm just lucky), most people you actually meet in game are not like that.

  14. #54
    I don't play tanks here in MoP because of any of those reasons. I don't play it because it's even more mind-numbing role than DPS when everything that I liked about it has been taken away.
    Last edited by Wilian; 2014-03-22 at 10:34 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    There's a difference between making tanking and healing frustrating, and making tanking and healing fun.

    Blizzard always goes for "frustrating." Then when that fails they reset the dials to "boring/easy."

    So, I think, it will get worse before it gets better, except it isn't getting better.

    It will never, ever be more fun to tank or heal than it is to DPS. Ever.
    Opinions are not facts. I have been playing a warlock since BC, and now think that my MW monk is more fun to play.

    To stay on topic, if the tank and healer numbers have decreased, I think it would be because of the attitude of people in LFR: "Wipe? Noob heals/tank! L2P you bads!, etc." I am not saying the numbers have decreased because I have no facts to back that up, but I am saying that I think the LFR attitude would be the cause if the numbers did decrease.

    <3 Kuragalolz for the signature and avatar

  16. #56
    Healing will be much, much more fun in WoD. They finally go slightly back to the Cata style where there was less bursty avoidable damage, but much harder to heal people back up. This is actually going to bring me back to healing with my Druid (the most fun class for me to heal with) that I haven't healed with since 4.3 (that was a disaster too. 180k mana and infinite spam of heals)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I'm waiting to see. To be honest, Active Mitigation is what turned me off from tanking (I just don't like how it feels), so we'll see if I like how it feels in WoD.
    If you're pushing your buttons randomly, sure. DK was an incredible introduction and made tanking awesome. Before AM and vengeance, tanks didn't really matter besides threat and positioning the boss. Sure, spamming sunder armor in vanilla was really hard and fun and immersive and fun and all that and fun... But the playstyle today is so much better and it really lets you get some variation if you roll different tanks.

    Monks and DKs have the most fun AMs by far imo. I only wish they made DKs scale a bit better with vengeance so you could use Death Strike a bit pro-actively too for certain mechanics. Not that using it reactively is hard, but it diminishes the fun since it's only directly after you take a big hit, unlike the other tanks that have increased AM for 20 seconds after they take big hits through vengeance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiny212 View Post
    The removal of meaningful active threat generation ruined tanking for me. Pointless to play when all you have to do is do damage like everyone else.
    Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor is fun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Herradura View Post
    Tank and healer numbers decreased? I'm not so sure of that... got any evidence? My gut feeling is that they increased. I see much less LFG CTA bags popping up now than I did in Cata. That's the closest thing to evidence I have, unless they changed the threshold.
    I definitely see less too, but the queues are pretty much the same.

    And before, I could get a bag as a healer and still have 5min queue to a dungeon, but now it has to be not only instant, but the others have to have waited for like 30 mins for it too, or at least it would appear so. I think the threshold has been changed, at least from personal experience.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  17. #57
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    I left tanking a few nights after they made tanking specs dps specs but now they are making them tanking specs again I might go back to it. The last night I ever tanked I was told to stand in fire to do more dps. If blizzard wants me to do dps so I went and played a dps class. Doing damage isn't why I tanked.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    I left tanking a few nights after they made tanking specs dps specs but now they are making them tanking specs again I might go back to it. The last night I ever tanked I was told to stand in fire to do more dps. If blizzard wants me to do dps so I went and played a dps class. Doing damage isn't why I tanked.
    Your goal as a tank isn't to do damage, so don't worry. You can go back to tanking.
    EU first PG wave 30, come at me bros.

  19. #59
    As a tank I always enjoy the start of the expansion. When you don't overgear everything by a large margin. I remember rushing to 90 and tanking brewfest without a healer on the DK. That was pretty fun, and doing CM's with a holy priest that spent more time spamming mind sear than actually healing was a hell of a rush. Being on that cutting edge where you have to play well and if you do, people notice. At the end of the xpac it's just "oh hes just a super geared tank of course he can do that." I get bored by that pretty quickly and then I just don't want to tank anymore.

    As far as healing goes, if it ever even for a moment resembles what we had to deal with in early cata I will peace the fuck out of it for good this time. Early cata healing was horrid and they won't fool me twice with that nonsense. There was only one fight that I remember fondly out of that whole xpac honestly and that was healing Heroic Chimaeron. That was one of those fights that gave me such a rush when it was current and there hasn't been one like it since.

    So I think that WoD will lower the amount of healers for sure because of the changes, since change is scary. As far as tanking goes I think we'll see a huge drop off of tanks after the first tier like we usually do.
    If you ever wonder how dumb people really are then consider this: even in the golden age of smart heals dumb people still find ways to die.

  20. #60
    Calm down, Chicken Little. If people stop tanking and healing then dps queues go up, which means the better dps will then switch to tanks and healers. Same as it ever was.

    How does this affect you anyway if some dps have to wait 5 more minutes?

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