BrM Getting Decimated in Siege Normalmodes

[Deleted]

The monk community really isn't divided at all. There are some very simple truths and some very subjective preference based stats.

It is TRUE that any haste above 0 is mechanically unnecessary. You can maintain shuffle and guard and purify on zero haste.
It is also TRUE however that gear comes with haste on, and the more haste you have reduces the margins of error. There is a sweet spot around the 4-6k mark for MOST people where they have enough haste that their level of play is sufficient to tank near perfectly.
It is also TRUE that if you need more survivability, mastery is the way to go. However, if you're dying because you're not playing the class right it doesn't really matter which stats you have.

[dementedlogic]

I'm sitting at 4671 Mastery, which seems to be well within the range of values you linked. I think that makes your entire point invalid, no?

Only if you failed to read literally every other part of the post, especially the part immediately after what you quoted which states these are all people (minus 2) who have garrosh on farm and are clearly gearing for DPS instead of survival (except for 1-2). You do not use the wrong enchants, tank cloak and tank meta when you are progressing. I'd challenge you to find a post or an armory from a monk tank in a top 200 world guild who would actually advocate the use of all dps gearing, trinkets, cloak/meta, and enchants in Siege progression. Early on in the expansion it was acceptable, but changes to the class have drastically changed the gearing scheme over time. Any reasonable monk who uses their head will state exactly the gearing setup I specified for progression and survival.

I will state there is a caveat for 10m raiding where mastery isn't really required because nothing hits you hard enough to care until possibly H Thok/Paragons/Garrosh, but if you were progressing at that level you wouldn't be here asking questions. This point is also nullified because the below quote couldn't be more true...

The monk community really isn't divided at all. There are some very simple truths and some very subjective preference based stats.

It is TRUE that any haste above 0 is mechanically unnecessary. You can maintain shuffle and guard and purify on zero haste.
It is also TRUE however that gear comes with haste on, and the more haste you have reduces the margins of error. There is a sweet spot around the 4-6k mark for MOST people where they have enough haste that their level of play is sufficient to tank near perfectly.
It is also TRUE that if you need more survivability, mastery is the way to go. However, if you're dying because you're not playing the class right it doesn't really matter which stats you have.

[Deleted]

Throwing in the towel already? Sure, it's your game.. But that way, you won't ever get experienced. The thing any new brewmaster needs most - more than a slight shift in stats - is practice, patience and experience. None of us were experienced brewmasters on day one. It takes time to master any spec, especially a spec that's so fluid and versatile as a brewmaster monk.

In the case of brewmasters, there's a couple of very strict rules you need to adhere to. Apart from that, brewmasters are extremely flexible. I don't see where the community is divided on these issues. I think the brewmaster community is pretty clear on the stats: haste to a comfortable level (for me, that's as low as I can get), mastery for survival and crit for damage.

What affects your survival more than anything, though, is the way you play. Any increase in mastery can be considered null and void if you repeatedly spike or die by dropping Shuffle or misplacing a cooldown.

Everyone is also pretty clear about that the value of all these stats depend on the player's mastery and experience of/with the spec, and the particular encounter you're facing. That's the nice thing about brewmasters: within reasonable boundaries, you can tailor your stats around your liking and not be wrong about it. There is a very important difference between this and having a divided community!

You can't compare your stat levels with those of nearly-BiS-geared players and say they're in the same range. Of course, your absolute mastery levels may be similar, but there's a lot of other factors that need to be taken into consideration:
- A highly geared character has a much bigger health pool than a less geared one, so the value of mastery with respect to spike reduction can not be compared 1:1.
- The level of content (and therefore, damage intake) also differs as night and day, which also has impact on the value of stats such as mastery.
- Well-geared brewmasters are also likely well-experienced brewmasters which in a lot of cases will actively choose to reduce their mastery safety net in favor of dealing more damage, because they're confident that their play and experience with the spec and fight can make up for that loss. When you're not familiar to the spec or the fight you're working on, you'll want some cushion to fall back on.
- The difference in amounts of total secondary stats between a 536 ilvl and a 580 ilvl character is huge. Gear comes with stat floors. I'm sitting at around 5k haste. Not because I'm feeling comfortable at that level, but simply because I cannot possibly go any lower. A less-geared character will be able to dip lower. I know this point is a bit of a sidetrack, since you weren't seeking to reduce any stat to an absolute minimum, but it's good to keep in mind.

PS, @dementedlogic: I've never seen Daught directly or indirectly advertise haste like that.

[EDIT] Shoot.. downside of long posts is that others beat you to it :P

[dementedlogic]

PS, @dementedlogic: I've never seen Daught directly or indirectly advertise haste like that.

He hasn't stated Haste is an end all stat, or even required, but he's confirmed what most other experienced monks believe: haste is important until you're comfortable. He's even running 8k, though he's also mostly reforged out of it.

As was said here haste isn't required in our rotation at all. If played optimally you NEED 0 haste, but I don't think anyone would argue that a few thousand haste isn't a pretty big quality of life improvement. Haste is also the only stat we have that actually assists us with taking LESS damage (besides the obvious dodge/parry) by enabling additional E/s and thus Chi/s and thus purifying more frequently.

[Tech614]

He hasn't stated Haste is an end all stat, or even required, but he's confirmed what most other experienced monks believe: haste is important until you're comfortable. He's even running 8k, though he's also mostly reforged out of it.

He isn't running 8k haste right now to make his job of surviving easier. He is running it because it gives him optimal dps if he can't get crit on that piece of gear, and he has all the mastery he needs for survival at this point. Looking at a farm content Tank for how you should prioritize your stats for a progressing Tank is the stupidest thing you could do.

@OP it's really simple. You say you have excess shuffle up time, and you are also purifying far more then you need too. Seems rather simple, take away from haste and add to mastery. You are wasting haste that does nothing for survival at your point instead of having something in an actual survival stat. Crit also isn't a "real" survival stat fwiw. Brewmaster don't run up to 18k+ crit rating because it helps their survival(hint they do it because it starts with a d and ends with an s)

[Rainbowdash]

uh

If you only had 20% crit, and you weren't running Chi Brew, you'd be really hard-pressed to keep EB up. Crit's really important. Getting crits on your self-heals is important. Crit is a very solid survival stat.

and the "Tips for new 90 Brewmasters" guide recommends crit > mastery.

[Exinium]

...(hint they do it because it starts with a d and ends with an s)

Is it dicks? I bet its dicks.

uh

If you only had 20% crit, and you weren't running Chi Brew, you'd be really hard-pressed to keep EB up. Crit's really important. Getting crits on your self-heals is important. Crit is a very solid survival stat.

and the "Tips for new 90 Brewmasters" guide recommends crit > mastery.

Monk... community... so divided... soul crushingly...

[allaiva]

Is it dicks? I bet its dicks.



Monk... community... so divided... soul crushingly...

The biggest reason for the divide is the realization that if played well, BrM requires almost no pure defensive stats to be a quality tank. For those learning how to play BrM I always suggest a heavier mastery build. It provides a higher base survivability with less management (aka keep shuffle up). You're effective health and time to death are much better from a defensive standpoint from a mastery priority outlook.

However, as I said, when properly played to optimum levels the change in survivability are almost unnoticeable swapping to a pure crit build when you're timing your Guards, Expel Harm, and other cooldowns around the incoming damage for a fight. At the same time your damage will increase in an overall sense since more and more of your damage abilities are increasing by being critical strikes. When I started into SoO from H ToT, I reforged to more mastery initially and over time I've been dropping that level with more gear going around the raid.

The reason many suggest and push high crit is due to the ability to have almost identical survivability while pushing out significant portions of damage. That damage can help you reach "breakpoints" in fights and reduce the damage coming in, making healers not have to play as conservative, and overall making most fights easier. But this again does assume you're not in danger of dying to typical damage throughout the course of a fight and optimizing all your cooldowns as best as possible.

[dementedlogic]

and the "Tips for new 90 Brewmasters" guide recommends crit > mastery.

No, it doesn't.

For a new Brewmaster, I recommend making sure your Haste feels 'just right' before focusing on Mastery, and — if you're not tanking 25-man Normal or harder — I suggest also getting a good Crit % first. Any Mastery that shows up on your gear naturally is not bad (just Reforge it away until you feel like you need more).

as a Brewmaster, all of your stats are good, and they're all good for totally different reasons. This means how you gear has no one formula; it might change completely based on what content you're doing, your personal skill level, your healers' skill level, and even just your playstyle goals.

After about 40%, getting more Crit is mostly just for DPS, so you could move on to Mastery if you're still uncomfortable with your damage intake.

The only thing this thread has taught me is that it appears reading comprehension is at an all time low and that people will attempt to pull random tidbits out and use them as examples instead of actually reading the entirety of something and analyzing what was said as a whole.

The entry level monk guide states hit/exp > haste (to comfort) > mastery (to comfort/for content) > crit. It even states that above 40% crit is basically a wash and little benefit to survival. Protip: that's around 7.5k crit in H SoO gear (to make this easier to understand - that's basically any gear from SoO), before raid buffs are factored in.

There is no strict "this is better" because as allaiva said monks are virtually entirely dependant on the user and it's healing core.

Don't feel you can purify enough? Add more haste.
Feel like you're spiking too much? Add more mastery.
Feel like your survival is fine? If yes, do you feel you're capping resources? If yes drop haste. If not feel free to adjust mastery = crit.

[Ham on Rye]

The only thing this thread has taught me is that it appears reading comprehension is at an all time low

Originally Posted by http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cs-of-survivalFor a new Brewmaster, I recommend making sure your Haste feels 'just right' before focusing on Mastery, and — if you're not tanking 25-man Normal or harder — I suggest also getting a good Crit % first.

The entry level monk guide states hit/exp > haste (to comfort) > mastery (to comfort/for content) > crit.

Pretty sure that states get a good crit % first

So yes, you're right, reading comprehension is hard.

[Deleted]

Something that should also be mentioned: Stagger feels more dangerous when you have less absorbs and smart heals(no disc priest in the raid or a disc priest that is not prioritizing crit for some odd reason).
The "mastery (to comfort)" also depends highly on your healers and your trust in your healers. If you don't trust your healers, go mastery>haste(until you energy cap despite purifying basically everything and only ever using TP to keep the buffs up)>crit.
It's also a matter of preference. Do you want to spam EH and purify after each hit when one or two healers die at 1% boss health? Or do you want to gamble an EH crit in the first few casts and kill the boss yourself?
With high mastery and a humongous shuffle buffer, it's hard to die once you drop below 35%.

[trystero]

This thread was fun to read.

OP, you need to learn a basic fact about tanking: there's no clear-cut "stat priority" to cover all levels of gameplay. Part of a tank's skill comes from gearing/equipping the correct materials. When you're undergeared for content, you lean toward survivability, and when you're 14/14H going for rankings you obviously don't. Sounds like you just want to be spoonfed the "cookie cutter" build and be done with it. It doesn't work that way, especially not with monks. You actually have to flex that lumpy thing in your head and figure out what works best for you and your team.

[The Madgod]

Pretty sure that states get a good crit % first

So yes, you're right, reading comprehension is hard.

I've been here since day 1. There has been no real consensus that you get crit first for any difficulty. This is likely bad wording on the part of the newbie guide.

Likely, they meant to say that if you are doing 10 man, you shouldn't need mastery so you should try it out with minimum mastery at first and get more if you actually do seem to need it.

[Quotey]

On Sha of Pride you missed 10 keg smashes. If you're having survivability troubles perhaps you should post some logs where you don't survive, though?

[DemoBytom]

if he is getting DECIMATED as a 540ilv brewmaster in SoO NORMAL mode - the problem lies far deeper than in mastery or crit stat allocation.. No boss, except for maybe Garrosh, hits hard enough to warrant the need for a mastery over crit build.. We've tanked SoO with lesser geared tanks without problems, I tanked it as BrM in less gear as well..
It can be bad elusive brew uptime, bad gift of the ox healing, bad expel harming....
Or bad healers that just can't reliably keep the tank alive >.>
Unfortunately I can't find boss fight deaths in the logs you provided (death on trash doesn't matter - you could be getting hit in the back, or were just overwhelmed by them)

[britishbubba]

uh

If you only had 20% crit, and you weren't running Chi Brew, you'd be really hard-pressed to keep EB up. Crit's really important. Getting crits on your self-heals is important. Crit is a very solid survival stat.

and the "Tips for new 90 Brewmasters" guide recommends crit > mastery.

If you're a new brewmaster you're only going to be tanking content that is easy enough to let you crit stack anyway. Don't even have to pick up mastery in 10h till thok/paragons/garrosh (maybe different back in the first few weeks but some of us are slow )

[kaiadam]

Regarding pure survival, crit is more or less worthless. More crit means higher elusive brew uptime, but there's only a limited amount of time during an encounter where elusive brew is useful. Uptime higher than that amount is essentially wasted - just from agility and random amounts of crit you'll find on SoO gear, you're well beyond that point already. Even if crit does add useful evasion, you're basically converting crit rating to dodge rating with an exchange tax, no less. No intelligent guide in the history of WoW has ever advocated stacking avoidance for tanks beyond far outgearing the content.

If you were to assign a numeric value for how much each point of a particular stat adds to your overall survivability, my approximate educated values would be something like:

Crit - 1
Haste - 1.5
Agility - 3
Hit/Exp- 15 (assuming not at cap, of course)
Mastery - 12
Stamina - 10

If you're interested in survival and nothing but survival, the answer is abundantly clear - meet accuracy caps, then gem/reforge into mastery or mastery/stamina and enchant stamina when mastery is not available. Unequivocally, that is the best survival setup, any other argument is fallacious.

While the "try out [insert setup] and adjust mastery after seeing results" strat seems to be a good plan, it's subject to the most heinous of errors: confirmation bias. In other words, if you think you'll be able to survive without mastery, no matter how many times you die, you'll rationalize it as the fault of the healers, and if you think you're struggling to live, you'll remember every dangerous spike that came close to killing you even if you never die. Take a good look at your raid, go through previous logs, compare deaths, and if you're dying more than you think you should, then go mastery/stamina. Also, don't go back and reassess after one week's worth of data, try for a month for statistical significance.

Don't fall victim to the belief that your gear is fine for "only normal modes" and that you're overgearing it already. People throw out the "overgear" key term a lot, but the actual amount is relatively fluid depending on your current raid setup. If a guild right now is barely killing Garrosh with ilvl 570 gear, does that mean they are overgearing the encounter compared to top guilds which cleared SoO normal with an average ilvl of 530? Objectively, sure, but given that both guilds barely squeaked by the kill, doesn't that imply they are at the same relative level, ie. ilvl 570 is *just right* of a gear level for the first guild to kill Garrosh, so how is that overgearing?

If you're having difficulty surviving in normal modes, treat it like how I and other top brewmasters did for progression week(s): full-on survival mode. Progression is never going to behave nicely and throw you consistent, smooth damage that you can recover from easily. The fact that you're struggling implies that situations will get out of hand and you'll be hit with instances where you'll be glad you had the extra survival. *points to the 4-5 first kills for the past two tiers I've been tanking where we killed the boss -through- 15 seconds or more of enrage because I was able to survive 900% extra damage*

PS. I have 8k haste because my loot luck sucks. Ideally I'd roll with 0, but alas, that's not possible so I settle for what I have.