I hate PVE. Why do you guys find raids/dungeons appealling?

[Zafire]

Hehe. Flamebaiting. Okay, I'll bite.

On the other side of the coin, you're enjoying PvP which is universally panned for being broken and unbalanced and every game is just the same without barely any variance. I try to PvP and I get bored about thirty seconds into any Arena or Battleground.

I honestly wouldn't mind if PvP as a concept would be dropped in favor of a complete focus on the PvE side. Of course, that won't ever happen. But I wouldn't be sad to see it gone.

That's not true at all. Every BG is different. The enemy players, your team players. Sometimes you run into people that simply play better than you, and other times you don't. Sometimes if I am on my Rogue and run into a 2v3 scenario (Where I am only with one other person) I have to focus very hard on CCing as much as possible while still doing damage (Redirect/Kidney, Blind, Gouge healer or other DPS then Vanish/Cheap Shot/Smokebomb on kill target, ETC). I always have to be aware of my surroundings because it is literally impossible to predict how many people choose to target you at any given time. I have to make sure my healers get kept alive. There are ENDLESS variables in BGs.

PvE is the very definition of monotony. You literally do the same rotation on the same boss repeatedly for months. The same programmed mechanics, to boot. A PvE boss has no differential at all. It's the exact same thing you've already done with the same variables. And all you do is get gear so you can get through it faster. There is little to no competition at all, unless you use recount. Then it comes down to "What classes are good on this fight?" "Do ranged to better than melee on this fight?" etc.

From a logical stand point I don't see how anyone can enjoy PvE for more than a month.

[cbeefman]

I sort of agree with the OP here.
PvE can get very very boring. However, I out right DESPISE PvP. I wish that ALL town NPCs were just straight up immune to player damage. But thats a topic for another thread.

Back on topic, my only way of mixing it up in PvE is to do role swaps in the raid team.
I'd love a chance to raid on my hunter again and let someone else tank but nobody on my raid team has a tank capable of replacing either myself or the other tank (I know it sounds cocky but it's true, just from a gear point of view)
I'd also like a chance to heal, but again, nobody can replace me at this time.
And when I say replace, I mean we dont have a tank that is geared/exp enough to have the raid progress as smoothly as we do when our full team is present. We only raid twice a week and if we dont get at least Malk down on the first night we're not happy

[kamuimac]

PvE is the very definition of monotony. You literally do the same rotation on the same boss repeatedly for months. .

i could rephrase the same about pvp - pvp is definition of monotony u do CC, CC some more CC and some more on top of it and then burn burn burn and again some CC and some more CC and throw some more CC and oh i forgot one more CC on top of CC and burn burn burn - and u do it repeteadly for months -_-

[Vermicious]

I'm a bit older than the average player, and don't have the reflexes for PVP. I don't enjoy it for that reason among others. I dislike it as much as you seem to dislike PVE.

PVE is what you make it (sounds like PVP, huh?). I prefer having some idea what the enemy is going to do, rather than more random when playing against real people.

Different strokes for different folks... liking one over the other doesn't make you better or worse than the next guy.

[Zafire]

i could rephrase the same about pvp - pvp is definition of monotony u do CC, CC some more CC and some more on top of it and then burn burn burn and again some CC and some more CC and throw some more CC and oh i forgot one more CC on top of CC and burn burn burn - and u do it repeteadly for months -_-

You obviously didn't read my whole post.

PVP is always different. The variables in PVP always change. No two BGs are ever going to be alike, and you're always going to encounter different situations.

That is never the case in PvE. Ever.

[shadowmouse]

To be honest, I don't understand PvP in WoW. To me, it is sex with a blow up doll -- kinda like the real thing, but not really.

[Akaena]

If you are ever trying PvE for the first time and you try LFR your doomed...............its over, your brain will rot.

[Deleted]

That's not true at all. Every BG is different. The enemy players, your team players.

By that logic every time I join LFR it's "different" because there are 24 different muppets with me. Regardless of how different the teams are in a random BG, the tactics and strategies employed in them are often repeated.

[hulkgor]

haha, using LFR as the benchmark for PvE is the most silly thing i read on this forums for a long time! And some serious weird stuff has been discussed!

Why even bother with it... oh well, have fun

[Wildtree]

You obviously didn't read my whole post.

PVP is always different. The variables in PVP always change. No two BGs are ever going to be alike, and you're always going to encounter different situations.

That is never the case in PvE. Ever.

Objection....
Every raid is different from the other. Even strategies in raids change.
If what you said was true, all bosses would always either die in the same fashion, at the same time, or never, IF the raid team was always set up by the very same group of people. And that could only be done by steady dedicated guild groups.
The general rule is rather that every raid varies week after week due to different raid combo, different performances by the individual players. And even the strategies vary, since there is not one boss that can only be killed with in one way but not in other ways.

What I observed via long time period (playing since classic WoW) however is.... that the best players I've met in the game don't take sides.
They not only accept PVP and PVE as equal, they also play both aspects equally. And one can tell that they do, because they benefit in both aspects from the other aspect. They raid better, since they understand their toons total abilities better. And sometimes an unconventional pvp approach can save a situation.. They also pvp better since they are more aware of environmental influences, and are generally better in concerted team actions.

[fiestatastic]

This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

I hate pve.

I mean, I really hate it.

I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
"stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
stuff.
4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

OK, so as I'm sure the pve'rs will say, LFR sucks, which it does, massively. Join a
good guild.

Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

I usually complete new raids at least once. But, I can't understand how any one can do the
same content again and again and again till autumn. Indeed, many don't, judging by
the numbers that dropped off in dragon soul. Seriously, how do you raiders manage it?

If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
trick that really works.
Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
on subscriber stats.

Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content. Most of us had to
level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata. We started by going out in the world, questing
and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

You may say: OK, so don't pve and shut up. Which I'd be very happy to do. But, unfortunately at
the moment you can't do world pvp without pve gear. The best pvp is actually world pvp, difficult
as it is to get a world raid going. There is no better experience for a pvper than trying to kill garrosh
in uninstanced Ogrimmar with fifty horde trying to stop us. So, you have no real choice if you want
to do that than grind through raids.

I like your post, pretty well thought out imo. I don't do lfr, but hear all this same stuff and think you probably wrote exactly how a fair amount of more casual players feel, especially about questing, it would be great if more effort was put into it.

Heroic raiding is for sure WAY different, tbh I don't even find normal raiding to be very engaging, however, you can't be casual and just play whenever you feel like it and do it, so it's less accessible to most players.

I do disagree about how every bg in pvp is different. To me they are all the same and it's incredibly repetitive and boring for the most part, you do the exact same stuff over and over and over .... and I've pvp'd A LOT, do it ok (am always top 3 in damage, usually top, with above 20 kbs in random crap bg's). For sure, 5's, 3's, and non yolo rbg's are much more engaging, but imo random bg's and 2's are the most repetitive and boring thing in just about any video game, esp 2's ... once your mmr gets even medium, around 1600-1700 it's just going around and around, waiting for cd's to come back up and no one getting a kill anyway until enough time has gone by for healing to be less effective, takes at least an hour just to do 5 matches ..... soooooooooooooooooooooooooborrrrring.

[Okacz]

That's what happens when people play LFR and think this is how PvE in WoW works. Well, nobody to blame to be honest.

What makes PvE, or raiding, so awesome isn't in this mode. LFR is sort of the "reward mode" you enter to get your roll on loots, not more, no less, anything that happens in between only ruins your experiance. Wipe on LFR is always a frustrating time waste, killing a boss is never exciting, having to wait for someone is always just a pain in the ass, and people who got to LFR to practice are just bad links that should be removed.

In raiding, especially with a guild and friends (tho it usually adapts to server pugs too) loot is usually not the key factor, having fun is. You enjoy the time you spend on bosses, practicing various methods and approaches. You chat, help others if they need, waiting for people is a chance for a refreshing break and joking around other than alttabbing in boredom. You're not really doing something spectacular, just hanging out within the game, with the goals of killing the boss being you "theme". And, when the bosses actually feel responsive to your actions (as opposed to what happens in LFR, where you feel that you could sleep on the keyboard and nothing would change) the content can be seriously fun to experiance.

[Nythiz]

@OP: Really well constructed post, and I see this kind of question pop up on either side.

I'm personally a PVE'er by heart; and even though I really enjoy some PvP now and again, PvE is more my thing.

The thing I love most about PvE is:
- Teamwork (this is available in PvP now as well, but before RBG it was only very small scale)
- Less rage (PvP type gameplay tends to cause people to rage more as they lose vs other players rather than from some AI)
- Overcoming a big hurdle and in that feeling a lot more sense of accomplishment (this mostly goes for progression raiding with a tight-knit group)
- IMO less balance issues. PvE is much easier to balance in general than PvP is; leading to certain FotM stuff. Sure PvE has this as well, but much much much less so.

Most heard argument I hear from PvP'ers why PvE is boring is that it's "repetitive".
I tend to disagree though; yes doing the same boss over and over the tactics wont change (and frankly that goes for PvP as well; in arena you generally use similar tactics for each comp you fight and in RBG you use similar tactics for each BG); but a lot does change. Different team setup might change things, different assignements on certain bosses changes things up; and bosses themselves change from boss to boss.

On top of that, if there IS a lot of repetition (like progression raids where you're stuck on a boss), it's not by default a downside. I love progression raiding where you constantly throw your very best at a boss, see yourself improve attempt after attempt (with possibly a real bad attempt somewhere in between ) and finally getting the kill. The cheers on VOIP when you finally manage to down that boss still brings a smile on my face when I think back on those; the first kill on Kael'thas in Tempest Keep back in TBC was probably one of my most memorable.

The biggest criticism I have on the foundation of your arguments (@OP); is that you base them on LFR.
Looking for Raid is as far away from true PvE; as random pug BGs are distanced from true PvP (RBG / Arena).

[Tiev]

The other way around is also valid. Why the heck do you pvp? It's so slow, takes so long to kill anyone and you don't have to care about your position as much as in real pvp games. If you want to pvp just go play dota or Smite (which feels more like WoW pvp).

I honestly think pvp in wow is the most boring thing there is to do. That and LFR take the boring cake.

I only 10 men. And unfortunately LFR for gear, wish I didn't have to though.

[Wildtree]

I love progression raiding where you constantly throw your very best at a boss, see yourself improve attempt after attempt (with possibly a real bad attempt somewhere in between )

Don't you hate that, when you get that damn bastard down to like 2%.. and on the next attempt he wipes you on 80%? lol

[blackblade]

Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

Not really, unless you're among the few who've got the whole instance on farm (Unlikely). You adapt existing strategies to make up for the fact that your comp isn't ideal, or to work around one-or-three weaker players.

We're slowly pushing through heroics adapting for the fact that we've got a 3-healing comp, and our healers have less-than-ideal DPS specs (and are just generally weak at dpsing)

10M can be especially trying if you're part of a more close-knit guild who isn't willing to bench players who aren't performing at the same level as the rest of the raid. Gear also plays a part in this, maybe one of your melee DPS is so far behind because weapons simply have never dropped for him/her.


A lot of the "Stand-here-dont-stand-there" mechanics in raids will likely diminish once they nerf ranged DPS's mobility.

Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content. Most of us had to
level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata. We started by going out in the world, questing
and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

They tried this in MOP with a bunch of daily quests gated behind more daily quests to get access to VP gear. WoD might be more interesting because quest rewards can randomly be awarded at a higher quality (Alt 1 gets a rare 2h weapon from Quest 1, Alt 2 gets a purple wand from Quest 1) This could mean that going for Loremaster in Draenor could be a viable means of getting raid ready provided enough endgame level questing content (a zone like dread wastes). getting a handful of heroic-dungeon level purps (today's 470) is a major help when the average drop is 7 ilvls behind. It also gives way to some potential itemisation leverage, for classes who really hone in on a specific stat by simply expanding the pool of available items.

If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
trick that really works.
Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
on subscriber stats.

Mileage may vary, here. "Cap LM/Mine/Stables, fight on the flags, go for farm if they push stables." While there is a significant amount more improv in BG's (and moreso yet in arena) compared to a boss pull in a raid, there's still a pretty standard and generally accepted strat or strats a team will use. It'd be neat to have "smarter" dungeons and raids, but the reality is that players will figure out how the computers think, devise a strat outlining the path of least resistance, and then execute it, complaining that the dungeon feels the same every time it's run. That's the simple nature of the PVE player.

[Veyne]

I literally hate every single detail about PvP. I don't understand how anybody could find anything about it appealing what so ever. All it is is a demented game of twister containing nothing more than LoS-ing your caster opponents, kicking heals and staying out of melee range/staying IN melee range. From there, it's all a matter of lining up cooldowns, both minor and major, in order to dish as much damage into a small period of time, lest they be healed to full before killing them. Literally the only thing gained from being good is bragging rights - saying that you're better than someone else.

[Perryn]

Fact of the matter people aren't perfect, for that reason even in PvE things aren't dying after oneshots. Getting down that boss for the first time after a long time trying is an awesome feeling, teamwork coming together & a real social experience at that. But yea if all you do is lfr that wouldn't give me much anyway, except some way to pass the time.

But that's my 2c, everybody have a different thing that keeps them to the game, if you don't enjoy it there's no reason to play it either, tbh.

As far as questing; yea I know what you're saying. Never was very hard but there used to be the occasional quest that would challenge you, but that's gone now, which is sad because those 'challenging' quests were never mandatory anyway, so wouldn't really have to impact anything at all. But ah well, it's the direction blizzard has decided to go and it's not enough to take away the fun of the game for me, more a nostalgic "wish they'd bring them back" thing.

[Fang7986]

PVE scripts can be learned once, then steamrolled over and over. To win in PVP, you need to get better, most people hate getting better.

If the point of pvp was to get better, why is gear a factor? It should be entirely skill based with gear having no affect on it.

[des1234]

(For the record I enjoy both PVE and PVP in wow to various extents.)

Okay, here's an analogy for your, OP, that might clear it up:

Imagine you are in AB and you've got some guy guarding the flag at BS, and you run over there and he kills you. You think, okay, so that didn't work, what do I have to do to get him. Next time you try a different strategy. Maybe he brings some friends so you let your teammates know that you want to assault BS together. You all go there and try to do different things. The opposing team wins. They are stronger than you (Gear/skill). You could technically go and try a different flag like Mines which may have different players (and therefore different challenges, like a different raid boss). But if you keep trying to kill this guy in PvP you basically get to know them and what they like to do to kill you. This is analogous to the approach you use in PvE. In PvE that guy is the boss, and the boss has a certain skillset, and as you try to attempt to kill him, you find out new things about what he does and you modify your own actions until you do kill him. The guy at BS might have a 1 second cooldown on his abilities, but the raid boss might have a 45 second cooldown. You still know the ability is coming when it's off cd. You prepare for it. Etc.

Now in PvP, you're usually much closer in terms of skill/gear to each other so it probably takes you 1 or 2 tries to figure out how to kill a specific player and then you move on to a different player. In PvE however, it can take you weeks to figure out how to kill this one "AI player". But you still employ all the same skills, strategy, tactics, individual play. I enjoy PvE for the same reasons as I do PvP. Once I've killed the boss once or twice in a raid it no longer interests me. It bores me in the same way it would bore me to gank a player more than twice. I know I can do it, so whatever. I move on to a different player (read: raid boss).

The reason you're not satisfied in LFR is because you do none of that. You keep killing all the bosses. Every week. (You realize in PvE you might never even see Garrosh because you can't beat a previous boss?) In LFR you don't need to play, you can sit in exactly one spot doing exactly one thing and still kill it. You can afk for the whole run and still kill it. In Flex and upward, if you are missing one person on the team the challenge is much higher. Few people 9-man 10 man raids at level because the loss of just one person is often insurmountable. Every person contributes something.

Further, you should try raid leading if you want more responsibility. Try executing your gameplay while watching 9 other people, where they are standing, what they're doing and whether they are doing it correctly. Try coming up with a strategy for every person in your team. That's one of the biggest challenges of PvE is you're still responsible for other people, you need to compensate if they did something wrong. If you see someone go down you need to take over their job before the raid wipes. Just like in pvp.

One thing in particular caught my eye: you walk into LFR and expect someone to explain strat to you. Did you do that in pvp? Did you walk into the new battlegrounds in MoP and expect the team to sit you down and explain what to do with the orbs or the carts? No you probably already knew the general strategy of the game when you walked in. That's because you realized that it would have impact on your success. If you want to contribute in PvE why don't you read the strategy for the boss before hand (or come up with your own in a team with friends) and then when you get to LFR you won't need to wonder why people are doing what they're doing. Better yet, try Flex+ raiding where NOT knowing what to do would probably get your team very annoyed in the same way as it would if you walked into AB at top level and said "what does BS stand for".

And finally, comparing PvP to LFR is strawman's argument because LFR is meant for people to see the story and get some loot. It's not meant to be a test of skill. It's like a level 90 ganking a level 70 over and over to see what happens. Since there's no challenge, it's boring. So don't try to compare the two.

And one other thing, as a person who enjoys PuG raiding, I personally really like to figure out how a new team of players will mesh. That first time you try to pull a boss with a team of 9 strangers is exciting. It's not even necessary to raid with friends to feel the thrill of a good team coming together.