1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    Vengance and Riposte Management and sKill

    Im relatively new to warrior tanking, its more or less a side project. Im just getting my meta and slowly gearing up. My main has extensive heroic exp and what not. But to the meat and potatoes. It comes down to vengeance and riposte which is very nice to have but is managing them that huge or at least trying to max out how much vengeance I can get that much to "skill" vs how reckless I play? I know keeping them up is good to some extent but would me wanting to cheese out some more vengeance be worth it over just not standing in something and the healers dont have to worry about me too much? One example is on garrosh in the transition phases Ive seen tanks just stand in the annihilate with some kind of cd but then I ask myself what if I need the cd after. I tried it in flex with desent sized shield barrier and it ate my barrier and a chunk of my health, felt like I was playing pretty reckless which im not to versed on in terms of tanking. Not really sure how to shake my ass to the beat of veng and riposte :\ is it that worth it over living?
    Chaos! Madness! Like a hug for your brain!¯\(°_o)/¯
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
    14/14h and finally done

  2. #2
    It's a fine line. In some cases scumbagging is required (not really know with the gear everyone has) so you need to know how to do it without putting too much risk into it. In most cases the benefit is not worth the risk and the only thing you really gain is higher ranks for yourself.

    I try to never put my raid in a position to wipe. On Garrosh for example, if done correcly the transition scumbagging should be done. The damage you take is about the same as the rest of the raid and you vengeance will be at 600k+ rather then 200k if you didnt stand in it. Doing things like solo tanking Iron Jugg or Malkorok the whole fight bring nothing to the raid except more stress on the healers and more focus on your epeen.

    Some tanks only play to put up high ranks, so they scumbag as muhc as possible on farm and progression. I'm not one of them so you will probably get a different answer from me then some others. I loved the vengeance model because it put my survivability in my own hands, but it rewarded people for taking more damage and punished people for doing the mechanics correctly. I'm looking forward to my PDS being based purely on my rotation/CD usage/uptime rather then vengeance in WoD.

  3. #3
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    oh the veng model sounds good but from a dps perspective from tot it left a bad taste in my mouth from the scumbagging Ive seen tanks do so I just want to do my job without unnecessary scumbagging.


    ps your weak auras are amazing.
    Last edited by Redpanda; 2014-04-12 at 07:54 PM.
    Chaos! Madness! Like a hug for your brain!¯\(°_o)/¯
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
    14/14h and finally done

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Redpanda View Post
    Im relatively new to warrior tanking, its more or less a side project. Im just getting my meta and slowly gearing up. My main has extensive heroic exp and what not. But to the meat and potatoes. It comes down to vengeance and riposte which is very nice to have but is managing them that huge or at least trying to max out how much vengeance I can get that much to "skill" vs how reckless I play? I know keeping them up is good to some extent but would me wanting to cheese out some more vengeance be worth it over just not standing in something and the healers dont have to worry about me too much? One example is on garrosh in the transition phases Ive seen tanks just stand in the annihilate with some kind of cd but then I ask myself what if I need the cd after. I tried it in flex with desent sized shield barrier and it ate my barrier and a chunk of my health, felt like I was playing pretty reckless which im not to versed on in terms of tanking. Not really sure how to shake my ass to the beat of veng and riposte :\ is it that worth it over living?
    as long as ur healers are aware when ur doing it and ur smart with using ur cooldowns (and saving those you need for the actual mechanics), there is absolutely nothing wrong with hoarding vengeance. you're helping the raid kill the boss faster.

    vengeance capped tanks, especially warriors, have the capability of doing more damage than any actual dps, i think its stupid if you wanna know, but its still how the game is right now, so might as well hop on the train and cheese it.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Redpanda View Post
    oh the veng model sounds good but from a dps perspective from tot it left a bad taste in my mouth from the scumbagging Ive seen tanks do so I just want to do my job without unnecessary scumbagging.


    ps your weak auras are amazing.
    Ya it isnt nearly as bad as it was in ToT but it's still annoying.

    Haha thanks. It's always cool when I see them on other UIs posted in the UI forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMine View Post
    as long as ur healers are aware when ur doing it and ur smart with using ur cooldowns (and saving those you need for the actual mechanics), there is absolutely nothing wrong with hoarding vengeance. you're helping the raid kill the boss faster.

    vengeance capped tanks, especially warriors, have the capability of doing more damage than any actual dps, i think its stupid if you wanna know, but its still how the game is right now, so might as well hop on the train and cheese it.
    I don't understand this argument that people always make. I understand on progression where DPS checks are there, but on farm when you are 10 ilvl higher then what the content is designed for all you are doing is risking a wipe for your DPS.

    One wipe is gonna waste more time for your raid then the 20 seconds you gain from your extra DPS over the next 10 weeks.

  6. #6
    Thing is you don't die if you know how to cheese properly. You need to stop scumbagging the second you realise that you are going to die. As in, you realize your cds are going to drop and you're going to get one shot ( lol malkorok ). Tbh, vengeance whoring tanks are really cool if they know how to do it. If not, they are just waste of time :P

  7. #7
    Herald of the Titans Valarius's Avatar
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    Get all the Vengeance! At any cost!
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  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Thing is you don't die if you know how to cheese properly. You need to stop scumbagging the second you realise that you are going to die. As in, you realize your cds are going to drop and you're going to get one shot ( lol malkorok ). Tbh, vengeance whoring tanks are really cool if they know how to do it. If not, they are just waste of time :P
    isnt scumbagging and cheesing the same anyway?


    by your last sentence the tank that plays recklessly with risk of dying is worth more than the tank that lives...interesting
    Chaos! Madness! Like a hug for your brain!¯\(°_o)/¯
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
    People doing below 200k dps? Ain't nobody got time for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smartazjb0y View Post
    Why? Why should content be gated behind skill?
    14/14h and finally done

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Redpanda View Post
    isnt scumbagging and cheesing the same anyway?


    by your last sentence the tank that plays recklessly with risk of dying is worth more than the tank that lives...interesting

    Has nothing to do with being reckless. If you know how to cheese properly then you won't die. If you are trying to cheese without knowing what will kill you then you will waste everyone else's time.

  10. #10
    Dreadlord Choice's Avatar
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    The whole Resolve thing has brought discussion of vengeance manipulation back into discussions recently. Ultimately as long as it's a core mechanic of the game, there's a certain expectation that anyone who wants to play a tank well will utilize it to some extent. It's a fine line to walk, because obviously you need to know your limits.

    You can manage shit like riposte and vengeance to a satisfactory level without needing to get too fancy, generally just quickly taunting and taking 1-2 hits to refresh veng and riposte is enough. Just requires some common sense with timing and communication with the other tank.

    Anything beyond that requires more thought, for example, swapping Garrosh in p1 to get a better spread of vengeance as opposed to one tank dominating it and lowering the raids overall damage. There are other examples, which tank takes Locust on HM Paragons, who takes Frost King for the bulk of the time on Council and so on. These aren't a matter of 'whoring' meters but simply getting the most out of the damage on offer without interfering with the fight.

    Shit like Garrosh Annihilates are really something you'd only want to do on farm - although I have seen people do it recently with the rise in solo heal garrosh kills. These sorts of methods are rarely used for progression because they usually require more gear and aren't practical in terms of killing the fight. As mentioned, putting CDs into unnecessary damage operates under the assumption that they won't be needed elsewhere; if that's true, great. If there's any reasonable doubt, then it's needlessly risking the attempt.

    There's a handful of examples where vengeance was integral to strategies, stuff like DA zergs and our HM Malk kill couldn't have taken place without the vengeance manipulation. But they're extremely rare and just require a lot of personal responsibility from your tanks.

    Ultimately, you should push yourself as far as you're comfortable doing. I always pushed myself as far as I'm able to with vengeance manipulation, but never risked a wipe, even on farm.
    Last edited by Choice; 2014-04-14 at 05:39 PM.

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Has nothing to do with being reckless. If you know how to cheese properly then you won't die. If you are trying to cheese without knowing what will kill you then you will waste everyone else's time.
    Is the risk really worth it? Like I said, causing 1 wipe that will waste 10 minutes which basically wipes away any time your extra DPS makes up for the next 10 weeks.

    Not to mention the DPS gain for the raid is not as much as you would think since you OT is basically doing nothing.

    For instance, on my guild's first Malkorok kill both tanks were doing 500k+ DPS while doing the fight how it was designed (except our monk soloed P2). The top US DPS on Malkorok is Grafarion 935k and his OT is doing 310k. This is 6 months later. I'm sure he was using DPS gear/trinkets and their total DPS gain was 30% while taking probably 2 or 3x the designed damage taken.

    I'm on record saying that the balance between Vengeance manipulation and staying alive is a valuable skill and probably one of the hardest things for tanks in this expansion. It just isnt worth it on farm for me or my guild. I'm sure some disagree with me though.

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