Warlock WoD Beta test - General chat

[Tya]

Celestalol and Holinka are the same kind of arrogant idiots, Celestalol is just way more ignorant and he is proud that he can prove it to everyone.

Just consider for a moment the raw volume of nonsense that is hurled their way on a daily basis, and how that might skew someone's attitude.

Furthermore, rather arrogance than nothing.

[evertonbelmontt]

@Tya

GC could take it much more easily, IMO.
Problem with Celestalol (I like it "lol") is that he's way too much biased. He only accepts to discuss what he wants and ignores everything else. This is kinda obviously on a LOT of the twitts he gets.

[rhorle]

Even mage food provides the same benefit as equivalent beverages made by cooks (I am talking about for the sake of drinking and regenerating mana/health, not stat food). At the very least they should be equal OR Blizzard should just remove healthstones entirely so they aren't counted against us as a "utility" that warlocks bring.

Then think of Health tonics extra benefit as the stat portion of cooked food. They still have their uses as not everyone will have tonics all of the time. They are still a limited commodity. People might not farm, might not be any to buy, might not be bothered with making their own. Might not want to use their supply of tonics. Might not want to share their supply of tonics. Health stones even in a lesser amount of healing will still be used in certain situations. It is only 18k less, unless you use the glyph and it heals for 32k more. With glyph the health stone heals for 103k health. It also appears the value is modified by stats instead of the flat 50k wowhead tool tip reports. As my level 100 premade has a 51,433 base non glyphed health stone.

Maybe not by you since you are a professional raider at all times. Who farms up every mat needed, or gets it supplied by the guild. And uses them on every encounter regardless of farm, LFR, LFD, solo questing, normal, heroic, or mythic (because you can do all of that in one week since raid difficulties have different lock outs). But for majority of the player base Health stones will still have a use.

Also they are not counted against Warlocks as using up a utility. I don't even know where you get the notion that each class can only have a set amount of utility. I even posted a link, which you dismissed, where Blizzard says it isn't even considered to be a utility. So stop considering it something that its not when the actual people that design the game have stated other wise. It is a class perk.

[Crisius]

Maybe not by you since you are a professional raider at all times.

Well there you have it. You are looking at it from a casual point of view while we are looking at it from a "Are we viable for Mythic?" point of view.

[Rayaleith]

Celest is not a fool. He is indeed interested in numbers because of his background (was the developer behind Rawr IIRC). What I expect to happen is, warlocks suck a bit at T17 and get buffed later.

[rhorle]

Well there you have it. You are looking at it from a casual point of view while we are looking at it from a "Are we viable for Mythic?" point of view.

The game isn't designed for mythic only. Besides as I pointed out in my edited post the glyphed version heals for a total of 103k. It will still have uses for mythic raiders you just need to be willing to look beyond surface and actually examine the mechanics. I am not looking at from a casual point of view but a game design point of view. Besides you can casually raid mythic so that reasoning is silly for other reasons.

However lets entertain your point of view. Should mages be able to conjure mythic level stat food? If you want warlocks to conjure top of the line healing, then shouldn't mages get top of the line food for the exact same reasons? Or is this simply a "I play a warlock so I care" reasoning?

[Crisius]

However lets entertain your point of view. Should mages be able to conjure mythic level stat food? If you want warlocks to conjure top of the line healing, then shouldn't mages get top of the line food for the exact same reasons? Or is this simply a "I play a warlock so I care" reasoning?

No, because mages already bring amplify magic and far superior mobility. Utility that not only warrants bringing one, but multiple mages to mythic progress. Also I don't need your prejudice.

[Jessicka]

The game isn't designed for mythic only. Besides as I pointed out in my edited post the glyphed version heals for a total of 103k. It will still have uses for mythic raiders you just need to be willing to look beyond surface and actually examine the mechanics. I am not looking at from a casual point of view but a game design point of view. Besides you can casually raid mythic so that reasoning is silly for other reasons.

The problem with the Glyph is that it's over 10 seconds. In 10 seconds you're being topped by healers anyway, so most of that goes into overhealing. Meanwhile, at 0.5s when you were at low health, it's not bringing you out of the 'danger zone', meaning you're still at risk, which is defeating of the object of using the HS/Tonic in the first place.

However lets entertain your point of view. Should mages be able to conjure mythic level stat food? If you want warlocks to conjure top of the line healing, then shouldn't mages get top of the line food for the exact same reasons? Or is this simply a "I play a warlock so I care" reasoning?

I think it's more a "Gateways only give us utility on some limited few encounters, whereas full-power Healthstones would be much more universal." Which is a fair point. However, I don't think either would be good to fill our 'utility slot' on the spreadsheet, as in both cases you're not looking at the same sort of stackable utility every other class is bringing to the table.

[rhorle]

No, because mages already bring amplify magic and far superior mobility. Utility that not only warrants bringing one, but multiple mages to mythic progress. Also I don't need your prejudice.

Prejudice? Nothing about my statements are prejudiced. But okay. Mages should have their food useless for mythic because they bring 10% increased healing. But warlocks can't have their health stones useless for Mythic because they don't bring any other utility? That is utter nonsense, and ignoring the actual things the class brings for the sake of hyperbole.

[Baconeggcheese]

Rhorle you're trying to argue that mages historical class perk is a valid comparison to something akin to a warlocks raid utility (cooldown) which is beyond silly.

The problem is they're removing utility from our class without compensating it, and then adding utility to a different class that mostly fills the same role.

There's nothing that replaces healthstones on live right now, it's in its own category and is basically a personal 20% health cooldown that warlocks provide. It's nothing like mage food at this moment, but they're turning it into the level of usefulness of mage food... which is why people are upset.

If that's not apparent to you... iono man.

[Jessicka]

They're not compensating it because the point is to nerf it so it's not utility anymore. Our utility is Gateway, and that is what you should be comparing to Amplify Magic.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it really that hard to see what Warlock players are asking here.

To nerf our mobility, cut Gateway instead of Fel Flame.

For our raid utility, bring back Curse (Aura?) of Enfeeblement on 3min CD.

Class fixed with class appropriate tools.

[rhorle]

Rhorle you're trying to argue that mages historical class perk is a valid comparison to something akin to a warlocks raid utility (cooldown) which is beyond silly.

The problem is that Health Stones are not considered a raid utility by the developers. It is only considered to be a raid utility by players. But it is silly that you consider conjured food a class perk when it has been heavily used in raiding before the prevalence of feasts. Which means at some point it had to have been a raid utility by the same standards that you are using for Health Stones.

The problem is they're removing utility from our class without compensating it, and then adding utility to a different class that mostly fills the same role.

So what other class has a "mostly the same" version of a health stone? Or is this a comment about a dps class getting a utility when another dps class hasn't? However the utility of Health stones hasn't been removed. It has just been made weaker because you know it still exists.

There's nothing that replaces healthstones on live right now, it's in its own category and is basically a personal 20% health cooldown that warlocks provide. It's nothing like mage food at this moment, but they're turning it into the level of usefulness of mage food... which is why people are upset.

Health potions exists on live and have for a long time. They are in the same category as health stones just weaker. And they don't get used ever because of how weak they are compared to how strong Health Stones are. This is why Health Stones and Healing Potions now share the same cool down and are close in power. Because a disparity existed to make Healing potions on live useless. They didn't want them to be useless.

However health stones still can be better then healing potions in WoD by at least 32k and still have benefits that healing potions don't have. That of being free on demand healing.

[Xanattos]

I personally am not overly concerned with the lower health coming from healthstones as I am not shooting for top 10 in the world progression however am planning progressing through and getting the content down pre-nerf. That being said, unless you are one of the players in the race for top rankings then it should be more about player ability than class buffs the classes bring. I have raided with 6 druids in a 10 man and cleared heroic firelands, ideal, NO, possible yes. However, Rhorle, I don't know if you are upset or trolling or what not but you are losing ground here bud, you are correct that healthstones will still have a purpose no doubt, especially on some fights where a warlock may need to glyph it and macro it to dark regen for some powerful self heals due to a certain mechanic. Additionally, while questing I doubt I will waste tonics on questing and farm content when I can use a healthstone. Yes my guild can supply and yes I could farm, but I am a parent, a grad student and carry way too much workload to worry about farming everything for quests and what not.

I would like to see some sort of utility still though as sometimes it's nice to have more to do then just your rotation and fight (currently I get symbiosis to toss heals :-D ), something perhaps that is with a pet, different pets could provide small raid or aoe affect buffs that would be pretty awesome (eg, shadow bulwark actually be a shadowy shield that prevents x amount of damage from a certan direction for y amount of seconds). Dark regen glyph having it's effect halved but affect a 10yd radius. soulstone rework that it is cast prefight on the entire raid and gets used by the first person who accepts the brez.

However, at this stage I doubt anything like that will change so we need to figure out how to squeeze every bit of our laughable utility out to beyond it's potential while figuring out how to put out more dmg. I read on one of the tweets that our gateway was borderline required on some of the mythic strats and am curious to see this as I have not been in town long enough to do much more than eat and sleep for the past few weeks.

[Deleted]

Up until now, Healthstones WERE seen as raid utility. They've just decided that Warlocks bring too much and are cutting them out because of it.

Mage food never has and never will be considered raid 'utility'.

Raid Utility (whether officially or inferred by the community) relates to what your class brings during COMBAT.

It is ridiculous to compare mage food to healthstones, regardless of whatever agenda Celestalon is trying to push.

[rhorle]

Is it really that hard to see what Warlock players are asking here. To nerf our mobility, cut Gateway instead of Fel Flame. For our raid utility, bring back Curse (Aura?) of Enfeeblement on 3min CD. Class fixed with class appropriate tools.

It is a little hypocritical to complain about losing utility by having health stones nerfed while at the same time wanting them to cut one of our utilities in favor of an ability that offers no utility to the raid. It is pretty hard to see what Warlock players are asking when they don't keep a straight argument about utility. Fel Flame and Gateway also provide two completly different types of mobility and don't fill the same mobility role. You are smart enough to know this.

Also curse of enfeeblement is a horrible raid utility. Because it mostly mattered to just tanks in a raid environment since it reduced physical damage done by 10%. I'd rather have a utility that is useful to the entire raid and one that can benefit the Warlock. But hey I guess all that matters is its a Curse right?

Enfeeblement was always more a PvP focused ability then a PvE Raid utility. Because tanks automatically applied it with their own abilities and bosses were tuned to account for it. I know Warlocks being the only ones to provided it in WoD would mean that creatures won't be tuned for it but it will definitely change some things.

[Jessicka]

I'm not complaining about losing Healthstones. I couldn't care less.

Enfeeblement would function as a damage reduction cooldown, how does that not benefit the raid?

[rhorle]

Enfeeblement would function as a damage reduction cooldown, how does that not benefit the raid?

-10% physical damage isn't the greatest raid cool down. Not every boss does only physical damage with abilities. The primary source of physical damage taken during a raid encounter is the tank. Enfeeblement was the same as Weakend Blows and in the WoD patch notes Blizzard stated :"Weakened Blows was a debuff that mattered almost exclusively to tanks, and that every tank automatically applied. We removed the debuff and reduced creature damage to compensate."

[Baconeggcheese]

The problem is that Health Stones are not considered a raid utility by the developers.

I don't understand why I have to keep linking this...

So what other class has a "mostly the same" version of a health stone? Or is this a comment about a dps class getting a utility when another dps class hasn't? However the utility of Health stones hasn't been removed. It has just been made weaker because you know it still exists.

The latter-ish

It has been removed because health stones did not share a cooldown with anything else previously, and now shares a cooldown with something that is readily available to every class while also being inferior to that thing that every class gets.

Health potions exists on live and have for a long time. They are in the same category as health stones just weaker. And they don't get used ever because of how weak they are compared to how strong Health Stones are. This is why Health Stones and Healing Potions now share the same cool down and are close in power. Because a disparity existed to make Healing potions on live useless. They didn't want them to be useless.

Potions do not share a cooldown with health stones, they are completely separate of each other. You would NEVER use a hp potion on live because it shares a cooldown with main stat potions, which health stones do not share.

You are wrong.

However health stones still can be better then healing potions in WoD by at least 32k and still have benefits that healing potions don't have. That of being free on demand healing.

The glyph is personal, so this point is irrelevant... and even if it weren't personal... it turns it into a 10 second HoT.... which is the worst possible thing you could do in most fights as typically you either need the burst healing or the HoT turns into over healing as you soak up smart heals anyway making it a total waste as you never actually receive the extra healing.

[Jessicka]

-10% physical damage isn't the greatest raid cool down. Not every boss does only physical damage with abilities. The primary source of physical damage taken during a raid encounter is the tank. Enfeeblement was the same as Weakend Blows and in the WoD patch notes Blizzard stated :"Weakened Blows was a debuff that mattered almost exclusively to tanks, and that every tank automatically applied. We removed the debuff and reduced creature damage to compensate."

Okay, so you're arguing this by taking it as a literal transcription from MoP over to WoD. As you seem to be bereft of imagination for application to a new context; it could simply be modified to function as a raid cooldown to reduce all damage dealt by mobs within the area of effect of the Curse - it did afterall also increase cast times for the afflicted; again, I'd assume the AoE version of the spell be that as applied by Soulburn presently, or the old Metamorphosis Aura.

[Nazmina]

I don't understand why I have to keep linking this...





The latter-ish

It has been removed because health stones did not share a cooldown with anything else previously, and now shares a cooldown with something that is readily available to every class while also being inferior to that thing that every class gets.

I'm willing to chalk the patch notes up to a typo or lack of communication at this point I don't think trying to argue for healthstones to be raid utility will bear fruit.

Also in MoP healthstones are equivalent to rallying cry or such, you can basically think of it as a raid cd heal for 20% on a 2min cd. The only difference is that people can use it independently which has its uses. But realistically as you only need one warlock to provide stones its not quite as desirable as adding more wars or hybrids if you need more cds.

I still think they should just make health tonics and stones equal, stones would be a perk, free tonics (which are basically as cheap as vendor items). Even if equal no group would bring a lock for stones, it would just be a nice bonus if you happen to have a lock.