Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Wow]

Anticipation charges are only converted to CPs through damaging finishers (Rupture, Evis/Env, CT); SnD and Recup won't consume them.

If that isn't it, and something else is going on, report it as a bug.

With "cp's on the rogue" It should give you the cp's if you kill something with a dmging finisher but just like almost everything its still programmed like it is on live and requires a target. That's actually the issue with all the cp problems on beta they did put cp's on the rogue but they halfass'd it in that they didn't change the things programmed to screw over cp's.

Its not a new resource so the game still does everything as if cp's were still cp's like live so anything that would wipe them out on live still does it on beta. And pretty much any issues with cp's on beta can be pointed to this and to make it worse they were clueless on this its not just some bug they've been working on fixing they had no idea there was even any issues.... That's how much they look into rogues..

[DakonBlackblade]

It's simple. You never finish at 4cp as combat. Always 5. If you waste combo points, you waste combo points. Quite some time ago I did a rough analysis on how many combo points anticipation "saves" and it's not many. It was 2-3 per minute in HToT gear, compared to the 5 that MfD generates--at no energy cost, meaning the combo points per minute is ahead by 2-3 with MfD, and those are free combo points. Anticipation's interaction with BG is that you shift ONE finisher from no insight to shallow, then the last shallow into moderate, and the last moderate into deep insight. This is effectively trading 1 no-insight eviscerate for a deep insight eviscerate. You get +30% damage to ONE eviscerate roughly every 40 seconds. With MfD you get one additional eviscerate every minute, which translates to +67% eviscerate damage every 40 seconds. (and that's assuming the MfD-evis is at no insight).

I agree with Fiery's assessment. I'd rather the talents be unified in theme, at least then choices become interesting. This is why I feel that T15 is our best designed talent row. Problem is while stealth is our defining mechanic, it's not the most impactful row (especially in PvE) because of how little time is actually spent in stealth.

If rotations were only performed by robots on patchwerk like fights this migth make sense but you simply negated everything I said and turned it into, you gain 1 extra eviscerate at deep insight, also the GCD you do not use to eviscerate on lower insight makes you move insight further faster, its a very small aceleration lets say it might be as small as 1-2 seconds, but after 10 times you acelerate your deep insight you end up gaining another deep insight that wouldnt even exist otherwise. Anticipation makes everything way smoother across the board, the top 10 parsees on Malkorok (wich is the closest to patchwerk we will get) for both 10 and 25 mans are from rogues using Anticipation (and Im quite sure if I had extended my research to 50 or even 100 Id have found 0 rogues that arent using Anticipation). And you made a point that mistakes with Anticipation costs you more DPS, how do you even make mistakes with anticipation ? Its not even a contest and the talent should be baselined, scrapped or the other 2 talents on the tier should be made way stronger.

[Razhiel]

Anticipation needs to be baseline. This would allow the final tier to be more situational tools instead of two situationals competing with a potent universal. Shuriken for ranged, MfD for rapid swaps/adds, then have a last one maybe as a spec specific AoE enhancer.

This would be amazing.

Now go tweet it to Sparklepony, maybe he responds!

[shadowboy]

If rotations were only performed by robots on patchwerk like fights this migth make sense but you simply negated everything I said and turned it into, you gain 1 extra eviscerate at deep insight, also the GCD you do not use to eviscerate on lower insight makes you move insight further faster, its a very small aceleration lets say it might be as small as 1-2 seconds, but after 10 times you acelerate your deep insight you end up gaining another deep insight that wouldnt even exist otherwise. Anticipation makes everything way smoother across the board, the top 10 parsees on Malkorok (wich is the closest to patchwerk we will get) for both 10 and 25 mans are from rogues using Anticipation (and Im quite sure if I had extended my research to 50 or even 100 Id have found 0 rogues that arent using Anticipation). And you made a point that mistakes with Anticipation costs you more DPS, how do you even make mistakes with anticipation ? Its not even a contest and the talent should be baselined, scrapped or the other 2 talents on the tier should be made way stronger.

That's sampling bias. The reason you don't see MfD in those parses is because top rogues don't use MfD--it doesn't mean anticipiation is better. Yes it smooths out the rotation. The damage is close between them but that global you spend on that evis amounts to a hill of beans. One COMMON pitfall of rogues is that they overvalue deep insight uptime. Even if you go from a 40sec BG cycle time ending at the very end of moderate to a 39sec BG cycle time ending at the end of deep insight, you're talking about 15 seconds of deep insight over a 9min, 45 sec fight. The damage gain is 0.75%. In the mean time, MfD gave you an extra 10 eviscerates--that's 1,667 energy's worth of free combo points.

Either way, the relative merits of MfD vs anticipation isn't really meaningful discussion for WoD, as neither of these mechanics are changing.

[Hitei]

This would be amazing.

Now go tweet it to Sparklepony, maybe he responds!

Fairly sure that this is going to end with anticipation being nerfed to 2-3 charges instead of 5 or some garbage like that, but here goes nothing.

[Coldkil]

The Anticipation issue is a much simpler one.

As we all know by know, the damage provided by the two talents is comparable; neither of the two will make or break the performance. Anyway, MfD requires a certain kind of micromanagment (read: press an additional button) that simply doesn't cut it for many many players.

Given two talents that net the same result, everyone just go for the passive one, because it's there always and they don't need to worry about it. Also Anticipation does a thing that MfD doesn't do: it actually changes the playstyle for everyone no matter the skill,and additionally opens to more committed players a level of combo point management that results in lots of fun.

That's why Anticipation wins hands down. Its design and effect on our cycles is way greater than MfD. I agree that a correct use of MfD nest great perfomance, but by desing it is often taken as the "lots of switching targets" fights niche talent. It's wrong to look at it like this, but this is what happens. The fact MfD has been ommplemented after Anticipation when people was just used to the new playstyle didn't help at all.

Kae chart just shows that - people just took Anticipation at start and never got rid of it because it simply worked well. All people searching for reference would just see that and end taking Anticipation aswell.

If anything, make deadly Throw Baseline and put a comparable combo point-themed talent on the tier instead (like cp regen over time, or anything else).

As others said , t15 is the best tier on out talent tree - three talents based on stealth that affects it in different ways changing playstyle a little but netting more or less the same damage. Sadly stealth is near to useless in any PvE environment.

[Hitei]

The poison thing is even more insulting when they gave hunters that ammo talent, which is essentially just a fancier, better version of Rogue poisons >.>

Well, this is the same dev team that gave hunters stealth that also makes them untargetable by ranged attacks and still lets them deploy flares and traps.

As others said , t15 is the best tier on out talent tree - three talents based on stealth that affects it in different ways changing playstyle a little but netting more or less the same damage. Sadly stealth is near to useless in any PvE environment.

One day I will convince the devs to change cloak and dagger to switch the rogue and target's places. Then, with a somehow balanced BoS that tier will be amazing.

[Razhiel]

Fairly sure that this is going to end with anticipation being nerfed to 2-3 charges instead of 5 or some garbage like that, but here goes nothing.

Hey man, you gotta have faith.

And if it does get nerfed, we`ll tweet the shit out of him `till he makes it better again.

[Sesshou]

I think unless it becomes significant, anticipation just wins hands down for the leeway. Yes, it may only save 2-3 cp a minute if you are being perfect. But with anticipation, I don't have to be. Some important mechanic happening while my ar/sb is up? Not really gonna want to stop mashing and if I hit an extra SS while I glance at a timer or look around the boss room for a ground marker or watching the cast bar then I lose nothing.

Well, this is the same dev team that gave hunters stealth that also makes them untargetable by ranged attacks and still lets them deploy flares and traps.

Hunters clearly got looked at. They got quite a few changes and quite a few new additions. We clearly got ignored and minimal effort.

[Taeyon]

Fairly sure that this is going to end with anticipation being nerfed to 2-3 charges instead of 5 or some garbage like that, but here goes nothing.

To be honest I wouldn't be opposed to this, it still allows for catching spill over from HaT, Seal Fate and RS, the trade off being we wouldn't be able to hold 2 full finishers to game BG, enter Dance etc.

[Hitei]

To be honest I wouldn't be opposed to this, it still allows for catching spill over from HaT, Seal Fate and RS, the trade off being we wouldn't be able to hold 2 full finishers to game BG, enter Dance etc.

I'm not sure it would even be enough. Even at 2 charges it would probably still be the only PvE choice by a large margin.
Not sure how you can balance it against the highly situational Shuriken Toss and MfD which only shines when you have quick dying (but not too quick dying) fights where adds are the primary target.

Also, what do you guys think of this? Pretty much accurate? Anything major missed?

[Taeyon]

I'm not sure it would even be enough. Even at 2 charges it would probably still be the only PvE choice by a large margin.
Not sure how you can balance it against the highly situational Shuriken Toss and MfD which only shines when you have quick dying (but not too quick dying) fights where adds are the primary target.

Also, what do you guys think of this? Pretty much accurate? Anything major missed?

The CnD change is interesting but I would rather have it be a targetable swap where it works like Transcendence, i.e, press once to teleport to the target then a second time to revert back to where you originally cast it. Just daydreaming but I think it would be pretty cool, kind of like how KSp works with the glyph but you have control over it.

[Hitei]

The CnD change is interesting but I would rather have it be a targetable swap where it works like Transcendence, i.e, press once to teleport to the target then a second time to revert back to where you originally cast it. Just daydreaming but I think it would be pretty cool, kind of like how KSp works with the glyph but you have control over it.

I considered that when trying to think of replacements, but I figured it was too close to transcendence, whereas the target swap would be something unique for rogues. Also pretty amusing to switch places with people on different terrain levels, or swap people into a group of teammates, or swap people out of LoS or yourself into LoS etc. and extra amusing if usable when moving because switching with shamans who knock you off stuff.

[Taeyon]

In regards to the post about Anticipation I was saying I wouldn't mind if it was baseline passive with 3~ cp overflow

[Leih]

I'm not sure it would even be enough. Even at 2 charges it would probably still be the only PvE choice by a large margin.
Not sure how you can balance it against the highly situational Shuriken Toss and MfD which only shines when you have quick dying (but not too quick dying) fights where adds are the primary target.

Also, what do you guys think of this? Pretty much accurate? Anything major missed?

The only major thing I would add to that is something asking if we really need another cooldown which can end up killing us half the time when we use it because it messes with our positioning and takes so much control away from our character (Death From Above).

It's at least cooler looking than the other two, but it's sooooo awkward to use, especially in PVE encounters where half the time you end up in a fire, off a cliff, or causing some other awkward shit. Imagine if you used DFA on Garrosh phase 4, what happens if you get Malice as soon as you cast it and you end up with Malice on you in the air? -.- Awkward fight mechanics like that mean we'd have to delay our DFA cooldown to make sure there were no mechanics about to happen that could be messed up by us using it... and I get enough frustration with that every time I have to delay a KS for similar reasons. Please, no more suicidal russian roulette abilities Blizzard, I already have one :<

[Shanko]

Make sure you guys are also posting the same things to the Rogue feedback forum on the WoW forum website. It looks/sounds like they're nearing the end mechanic reworks of each class/spec, so make sure your/our voice is heard.

[Hitei]

The only major thing I would add to that is something asking if we really need another cooldown which can end up killing us half the time when we use it because it messes with our positioning and takes so much control away from our character (Death From Above).

It's at least cooler looking than the other two, but it's sooooo awkward to use, especially in PVE encounters where half the time you end up in a fire, off a cliff, or causing some other awkward shit. Imagine if you used DFA on Garrosh phase 4, what happens if you get Malice as soon as you cast it and you end up with Malice on you in the air? -.- Awkward fight mechanics like that mean we'd have to delay our DFA cooldown to make sure there were no mechanics about to happen that could be messed up by us using it... and I get enough frustration with that every time I have to delay a KS for similar reasons. Please, no more suicidal russian roulette abilities Blizzard, I already have one :<

Added, and also added lines for improved clarity.

DfA feels awkward all around, which is a shame because it's conceptually the coolest thing rogues have probably ever been given.

Not that this will ever happen, but it'd be pretty neat if it were replaced with an instant ability (of the same name) that still did small AoE pulse and big main target damage--but instead of making the rogue, aoe, flip back into the air and charge down it summons a bunch of spectral shadow knives up above the target that pause for a second and then shoot downwards, hitting the target and nearby enemeies (with the knives sticking into the ground like Volley used to do with the arrows--With a final knife that hangs directly above the target and flies straight down into it (with a bit more flare than the other ones) doing the single target burst.

That way it's still interesting, visually unique and enganging, feels a bit different from just hitting evis, but doesn't take control away or reposition your character.

Speaking of which, has anyone used DfA on a target mid rapid-movement yet? How does it behave?
Like a mage that blinks as you're first jumping up into the air, or a boss that teleports someplace, or a warlock using their gate. Seems like self-harm aside, it has the potential to be extremely buggy.

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P.S.

Clearly Blizzard needs to just bring back volley, but give it to rogues and with spectral daggers raining down from the sky instead of arrows.
The hunter tears would be fitting revenge for Camo, Exotic Munitions and Disarm Trap removal.

Balance it to do more AoE DPS than a regular AoE rotation for the specs, and then replace shadow reflection with it. Jobs done.

[Deleted]

''Not that this will ever happen''
Why not? Why shouldn't it happen. Its not that Blizzard doesn't have the resources to do this, but instead the rogue community gets a middle finger. Yeh Death from Above needs a cool visual animation. Even the Thief in Guild Wars 2 have so many awesome skills. I don't think they realize what their competition is pulling off.

[Leih]

I like the falling knives idea. You know I think they could take something like that concept and we could use it to kill two birds with one stone.

What if you took Death From Above and converted it into your idea for rain of knives finisher, then take the existing cool animation for DfA and reuse it as a new version of Shadow Reflection. Instead of a boring long cooldown that just copies your moves, the ability would be a lot cooler if it summoned a shadow who would immediately leap into the air and dive bomb your target. It'd look kinda cool, but wouldn't put you in danger since it's just an invulnerable pet doing the animation :P

[Feali]

Added, and also added lines for improved clarity.

Combat Readiness and Nerve Strike also have little PvE impact. Nerve Strike is nice for the add on the final High Maul boss but usually it brings nothing to the table.

DfA feels awkward all around, which is a shame because it's conceptually the coolest thing rogues have probably ever been given.

Shadow Reflection could have been that if it interacted with more stuff. It's a theorycrafting nightmare.