Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Bullettime]

Number tuning also hasn't happened yet.

I wasn't so much looking at the numbers, as those are easily adjusted, as I was looking at Death from Above in actual use. Buffing Envenom's damage doesn't mean much when Envenom's damage primarily comes from the poison chance and not the damage while Sub seems to have had Eviscerate pushed down to Ferocious Bite levels of usage and enough other finishers to track and juggle. It will be really hard to squeeze it in even remotely on its cooldown.

Combat is the only spec who would really care about the finisher boost or be able to use it on cooldown.

[shadowboy]

Combat is the only spec who would really care about the finisher boost or be able to use it on cooldown.

Combat cares about RB and cheap combo points are better than damaging combo points. DfA is a really expensive finisher when it comes to cd reduction from RB. I'd be surprised if it's really all that useful for combat, either.

Let's face it. A finisher that does 1.5x as much damage for 2.5x as much cost (after relentless strikes) while also stopping autoattacks for a couple seconds is going to be iffy for all specs.

[Mafic]

Yeah the gap closer aspect on Death from Above can be pretty awkward. It throws you behind the target on the way down, even if you're standing in front of them, and you can end up in some awkward spots. They had the talents available for Mythic SoO testing for example and if you used Death from Above on Spoils, you could find yourself bugged out inside a box. Or you would find yourself thrown into the water on Megaera.

At least Killing Spree can be glyphed to return you to your starting point but this won't happen for DfA because it's a talent (Blizzard doesn't want glyphs for talents) and the gap closer is what makes it very attractive for PvP Rogues. In short, making it PvE viable could kill the PvP viability.

Have a feeling that the last tier will end up going the same way as T6; one PvE option and the choice between two PvP centric ones.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, where's the Rogue presence and feedback on the beta? I'm a Hunter main and seem to be giving more constructive Rogue feedback than most. It's largely only a couple of us saying anything at all.

Small rogue populations and a lot of us that are active are not in beta this time around. Sorry can't be anymore of assitance haha but Blizz isn't helping either. :P

Combat seems most likely to favor Shadow Reflection (deep insight + cool downs) over DfA.

I agree with Shadow Boy that DfA has too many limitations from a PVE point of view at the moment.

[Wow]

Buffing Envenom's damage doesn't mean much when Envenom's damage primarily comes from the poison chance and not the damage

While the tuning pass could change all I'm about to write I don't see it changing much do to how assassination was doing in the raid testing it was one of the specs about where most were it wasn't low or high.

Assassination dmg from my testing is a good amount different from live from where dmg is coming from it has much more active dmg outside of execute range. And part of that is the fact that envenom actually does dmg now and the other part is that builders do dmg and the perk for envenom boosts them more. And the fact that rupture actually does something now lol.

Wod envenom itself and its buff seem to be high sources of dmg. Wod assassination feels like your energy and cp's actually do something and live feels like a deadly poison bot.


But on dfa it will be bad for other reasons.

[Mac223]

lvl100: doesn't matter, someone will do the math and say "this one does 0.000876% more damage" thus everyone will run with that"

More like: Single target / burst supah important -> Shadow Reflection. Are there >y mobs up for >x time -> venom zest. And maybe with some weird AoE-niche -> Death from above

And someone will probably figure that out, but it'll depend on specc, and depending on the tuning it might not be so obvious.

[Ryme]

Nice work Hitei.

I'm asking myself literally every time why players can come up with such interesting ideas and Blizzard can't.

I'm sure Blizzard can, but I would guess that they're scared of doing so. Rogues function too well if you're taking the objectivity of a machine, they're balanced and are very easily tweak-able.

The analysis that some rogues are unhappy with how stale the class is isn't sufficient enough for Blizzard to change how we work. I imagine the warlock overhaul that changed the warlock population very insignificantly didn't help our cause much either.

I'm most likely going to change class for the next expansion, I believe the only way to be heard is to show it on their statistics and so voting with your feet seems like the next logical step. I still have faith in Blizzard, I just think they need to get past their fear and take a leap of faith with us

[Leih]

I've made a few rogue posts on the beta forum, but being EU and posting on there seems like a waste of time as ever. The chance of a developer actually receiving, reading and taking on board feedback posted on the EU forum is like playing darts in the dark and trying to hit a bullseye... but then you realise the dart board is in the other room.

[Msi]

You could post it here so some 1 from US could post it on their forum

[Deleted]

Ah, it's pointless being hopeful. It's too late in the development cycle for us and what we have is going live.

Like others have said, we're going to be waiting for 6.X for any changes. Maybe we'll get another shuriken toss buff.

[Leih]

You could post it here so some 1 from US could post it on their forum

If they have access to the US beta forum, they should be posting their own feedback :P

I don't think posting more things from the same person works!

- - - Updated - - -

Here, I reposted my talent feedback essay on the EU forums. If anyone wants to steal it for a post on the US ones where someone might actually read it, feel free.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...23476?page=1#0

[Mafic]

As others have said there have not been enough changes for Rogues to give new additional feedback so there is not much more to be said. Existing issues with the talent trees still are evident though so until Blizz has an epiphany that is something is seriously wrong with the Rogue trees we have to wait.

Sub's PVP set bonus is an obvious example where they have given up on the idea that all talents should be viable for PVE or PVP. Can't take Leeching for two reasons as Sub in PVP because Elusiveness has a lot of synergy with Sub's set bonus. The other problem is that if Leeching doesn't proc crippling no spec will want to use it for PVP.

Rogue talent tree can be defined in three ways: PVP talent, PVE talent, and in rare situations both PVE/PVP talent.

As for the PVP glyph situation, Blind and Energy (no energy set bonus) seem like given go to choices with only one free glyph slot. This experiment where Rogue energy set bonus removed was tried before if I recall and it wasn't good.

It seems to me that Blizz is repeating a lot of design mistakes that happened in MoP or even making it worse in some aspects. One choice of a non lethal poison for PVP (Crip) with one (maybe two if you take Leeching) for PVE doesn't really inspire a new player to play a Rogue. Why? I can't think of a melee that doesn't have a snare/root at this point. No Mind Numbing, no Paralytic...

Blizz needs to be more consistent with their vision of their game for all classes because right now Rogues are not moving forward with the new design paradigm of WoD.

[Sativ]

Those rogue set bonuses are terrible besides the Assassonation 4 peice.

I severely hope they get worked on: Here's a link to a thread i posted about the topic. If it interested you you can read it there. Not gonna copy paste and shit up this thread.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13593819547

[Mafic]

Versatility is purposefully designed to be hard to stack to meaningful relevance for obvious reasons, so why they go and give Sub PVP set bonus as Versatility baffles me.

- - - Updated - - -

Those rogue set bonuses are terrible besides the Assassonation 4 peice.

I severely hope they get worked on: Here's a link to a thread i posted about the topic. If it interested you you can read it there. Not gonna copy paste and shit up this thread.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13593819547

Don't expect any changes until a new season arrives. They did something really creative with Assassination and then they went and gave Combat and Sub PVP set bonuses that are really underwhelming. The combo points from a successful kick may be incentive for more players to use Anticipation for PVP but given how dominant Anticipation is in PVE that would surprised me. Anticipation probably needs to be base line along with Leeching but we have to see what Blizz does.

[Coldkil]

I'm sure Blizzard can, but I would guess that they're scared of doing so. Rogues function too well if you're taking the objectivity of a machine, they're balanced and are very easily tweak-able.

Agree. As i said, i can understand their will to not break something that objectively works well; feedback from players has power but only to a certain degree.

As for me, very likely i'm not going to buy WoD - i don't have the will to reroll, i'm too much tied to my rogue and i don't want to take a new class and learn it from the beginning. Plus Blizzard itself gave to me a nice replacement for WoW named Diablo 3 and HoTS. I'm sure i'll be missing raiding with my mates, but the garrison is not enough for me to keep me interested in the game. Raiding for me is all about my rogue and farming gear - half of the carrot has been eaten already.

[Sicarius87]

Death from Above actually isn't bad....if you're Combat. It's so underwhelming for Sin and it may as well not exist for Sub =\

I love DFA from a pvp standpoint. But I dont think it's really PvE. Id go venom zest or that other one I cant think of atm.

[Feali]

How can you fuck up Ruthlessness so bad like it is right now in Beta?

You get 2 Combo Points instead of 1
You get 50 Energy instead of 25
It doesn't reduce the Cooldown

Nothing works as it should. What is this?

[Mafic]

The lack of auto attacks in the air generally cause you to lose more than you gain. This is especially true for combat (which can gain extra energy from auto attacks) and assassination (loses poisons which contribute a lot of damage).

Blizz has said they have taken that into consideration but like you I am skeptical. But the biggest issue with DfA is that you can be CC'ed mid air during the animation and that if used on a ledge it is certain death.

- - - Updated - - -

How can you fuck up Ruthlessness so bad like it is right now in Beta?

You get 2 Combo Points instead of 1
You get 50 Energy instead of 25
It doesn't reduce the Cooldown

Nothing works as it should. What is this?

It is a known issue (I would hope).

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13482078073#1

Zorbix locked the thread because bug reports are not allowed to be bumped. However we haven't seen any bug fixes yet for Restless Blades cool down reduction. I suspect that this may be decided upon with damage tuning?

As for the 50 energy and 2 combo points from Ruthlessness...well it makes it hard to test anything for Combat from a PVE point of view.

[Pathal]

Pretty easily.

Sounds like the effects are being generated twice, instead of reducing the CD by 2s per CP. Probably just using the wrong method or transferred a variable wrong. Real easy mistake to make, like forgetting a semicolon. It just so happens to be that this mistake compiles, runs and doesn't segfault.

[shadowboy]

Let's not forget about the almost-11 month old ruthlessness aggro bug (that iirc, has transferred intact to beta).

[Deleted]

The lack of auto attacks in the air generally cause you to lose more than you gain. This is especially true for combat (which can gain extra energy from auto attacks) and assassination (loses poisons which contribute a lot of damage).

I also have the feeling that the benefit of haste on auto attack speed could at least partially be lost when DfA is used often because of the auto attack stop and pace reset. What do you think, guys ?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah the gap closer aspect on Death from Above can be pretty awkward. It throws you behind the target on the way down, even if you're standing in front of them, and you can end up in some awkward spots. They had the talents available for Mythic SoO testing for example and if you used Death from Above on Spoils, you could find yourself bugged out inside a box. Or you would find yourself thrown into the water on Megaera.

At least Killing Spree can be glyphed to return you to your starting point but this won't happen for DfA because it's a talent (Blizzard doesn't want glyphs for talents) and the gap closer is what makes it very attractive for PvP Rogues. In short, making it PvE viable could kill the PvP viability.

Have a feeling that the last tier will end up going the same way as T6; one PvE option and the choice between two PvP centric ones.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, where's the Rogue presence and feedback on the beta? I'm a Hunter main and seem to be giving more constructive Rogue feedback than most. It's largely only a couple of us saying anything at all.

We could be tired to pray in the desert or see our suggestions being implemented for other classes... ;-)