Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Leih]

There's 2 reasons why this happened yet:
- They can't come up with good poisons / substitute talents and that's why we don't get anything
- They just don't bother to think (which is more likely because let's face it: Every one in this forum has better ideas than them)

That does seem to be the obvious conclusion, yeah. Like I said, I think to make the tier work it wouldn't even need to be a creative talent though... even a straight out passive damage reduction like hunter's iron hawk, or something practically the same with a little flavour (10% damage reduction while SnD is up? 15% reduction of damage over time effects on the Rogue? Plenty of simple talents). It wouldn't be spectacular but it'd work, and the talent tier would actually have a bit more meaningful choice.

As far as other non-lethal poisons go... yeah, think they are just being a bit lazy or scared to make changes because they don't want to rebalance anything.

[SynergyDarkstar]

I'd prefer to see Leeching made baseline in some form

This actually would be pretty cool. Poisons, by their nature, are already mutually exclusive. I had envisioned a "poison" row on the talent tree, but honestly, we should have choice for non-lethal poisons regardless of talent choices.

It might be interesting to bring back Anesthetic Poison: passively reduces threat, on Shiv removes 1 magic buff from a target.

[Deleted]

I'm new to the class, but this is one of the first things i noticed.

Like, why the hell is BoS even in the game, let alone a TALENT option when we have Sprint?
I mean, don't get me wrong, i like the fact that i can spend 100% of the time in Sprint-Mode, it's awesomesauce - but it really is fuckin` retarded to just spam that button to no end. It kinda nullifies Sprint, don't it?

Well people who are new to the class see it how it is. Others are just defending an illogical talent that should have been removed long time ago. Its things like this that makes rogue population dwindle into a downward spiral. Does Blizz not get the memo yet? They were promoting to remove unnecessary skills that were just forming bloat without good reason. Well BoS is a fine example of pure unnecessary bloat, and not to mention its bad design when a class has constant increased movement speed, it does not make for interesting gameplay regarding choices of situations.

Its times like these, I wish I had beta so I could provide feedback to the devs. But now, I will just have to wait it out, and hope for the best that blizz comes to their senses feedback wise.

[Taeyon]

Baseline Feint is enough for most realistic raiding scenarios, Elusiveness acts as a cool 15% extra mitigation. Leeching Poison is mostly overhealing and deemed worthless unless there is some mechanic where it may shine (Heroic Tortos). Cheat Death is usually perceived as a "scrub talent" because you need to "die" before it becomes useful; however during progression mistakes are known to happen, be it by the Rogue or by someone else.

Basically, I would say that Elusiveness is overrated while Cheat Death is underrated. Something similar happens with Tricks of the Trade, which is more useful for paddling meters than to provide a meaningful raid damage increase, yet it is usually regarded as the pinnacle of Rogue utility.

Fully agree, CD also allows you to cheese mechanics through personal fault or intentional.

[Deleted]

An example of why cheat is so strong:

*Thok progress, back when healing was extremely rough, a misplaced cooldown would wipe the raid, and there wasn't any kill videos available*
Took off cheat death for literally one pull, died in 3 seconds to lack of healing when feint wasn't viable to press that early in the fight.

Blame it on or say whatever you want, but Cheat Death gives an enormous amount of wiggle-room on progress fights. There is no 'x is better' or 'y is better'. I actually find it quite amusing how people think one talent is...

[Deleted]

An example of why cheat is so strong:

*Thok progress, back when healing was extremely rough, a misplaced cooldown would wipe the raid, and there wasn't any kill videos available*
Took off cheat death for literally one pull, died in 3 seconds to lack of healing when feint wasn't viable to press that early in the fight.

Blame it on or say whatever you want, but Cheat Death gives an enormous amount of wiggle-room on progress fights. There is no 'x is better' or 'y is better'. I actually find it quite amusing how people think one talent is...

Well there are so many cases of x being better than y in our talent spec. I dont see how you can think otherwise. This isnt the place for a talent discussion i guess, each tier does have a clear cut winner.

[fierydemise]

I think a lot of people do tend to forget that Elusiveness functions on -all- damage and not just an additional increase to your AOE Mitigation. Baseline feint is "good enough" for most AOE damage - 50% reduction is with no cooldown is way more than most other classes can offer. The additional ~15% from Elusiveness is cool, but usually not a difference maker.

But Elusiveness actually improves the ability in other ways, because it means you can also Feint for a 30% reduction on single target damage. That means it works on things like DoTs and debuffs, which baseline Feint does nothing to prevent.

How often is that actually relevant? The vast majority of things that can kill you in a raid setting are AoE. Off the top of my head I can't come up with that many mechanics that aren't considered AoE that are dangerous enough to need a 30% single target reduction, Lei Shen winds in p3 is the only one that comes to mind and for most of those mechanics we have a very powerful cooldown in cloak that works on most of those mechanics (not on Lei Shen which makes that fight a good one for elusiveness).

Given the relative rarity of mechanics where elusiveness is well suited and needed beyond our already powerful toolkit I consider cheat death to be the default talent on that tier swapping to elusiveness only on fights where it is well suited (for example Lei Shen for the reasons mentioned above).

[Feali]

It's an Anti-Error ability. Nothing wrong with that.

[Karry]

Well people who are new to the class see it how it is. Others are just defending an illogical talent that should have been removed long time ago. Its things like this that makes rogue population dwindle into a downward spiral. Does Blizz not get the memo yet? They were promoting to remove unnecessary skills that were just forming bloat without good reason. Well BoS is a fine example of pure unnecessary bloat, and not to mention its bad design when a class has constant increased movement speed, it does not make for interesting gameplay regarding choices of situations.

Its times like these, I wish I had beta so I could provide feedback to the devs. But now, I will just have to wait it out, and hope for the best that blizz comes to their senses feedback wise.

Betas dont matter that much when it comes to rogues, never have and never will. People make comprehensive lists, people make contructive feedback threads, among the flaming ones ( which still have a point ) and expansion after expansion they ALL get ignored and get the silent treatment or just "Rogues are fine".

[Deleted]

The thing is though dmg wise and in terms of utility we are ok. Sure lvl 100 talents could be a whole lot better but our dmg is not bad compared to other classes right now (warrs will get nerfed pls blizz). We still have the best survivablity out of other melee. I dont mind being 2nd to warriors but just above/ on parr with dks/ferals/enhance/monks. Sstep is too good still and unless BoS has some use in raids i will only use it in leveling. Nightstalker+BoS is faster than mount speed xD. It just means we get to continue playing what we do on live atm and i dont know about you guys but i love it and will keep playing it.

[Tecnice]

How are Rogues doing in PvP on the beta? I hear every once in awhile people say we're amazing. Anyone actually playing one? Likes, Dislikes?

[Leih]

How often is that actually relevant? The vast majority of things that can kill you in a raid setting are AoE. Off the top of my head I can't come up with that many mechanics that aren't considered AoE that are dangerous enough to need a 30% single target reduction,

Whether you personally think a mechanic is dangerous enough to want a 30% damage reduction for is up to you to decide. Some people value different things, and it depends on your raid composition, strategy, number of healers, etc. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with Cheat Death (apart from it not working sometimes...especially in PVP) and I think Leeching Poison is the main weakness in that tier. I do think it's short-sighted to say that Cheat Death is the best in most situations. I think the flexibility of Elusiveness and the preventative nature of it will serve you better, provided you know the encounters and keep yourself aware of how your healers are doing and whether you need to be pushing DPS or not. Just because you spec Elusiveness doesn't mean you have to cast it all the time - knowing when to use it is important.

As far as specific mechanics which aren't AOE goes, in this tier alone there are several abilities where a well-timed feint can reduce a lot of damage if you find yourself with Cloak on cooldown, or with healers falling behind, or you accidentally take too many stacks of something. Some abilities off the top of my head:

Immerseus - Swelling Corruption
He Softfoot - Garrote
Sha of Pride - Mark of Arrogance
Galakras - Flames of Galakras
Iron Juggernaut - Laser Burn
Dark Shaman - Toxic Mist, Iron Prison.
General Nazgrim - Bonecracker and Arcane Shock
Thok - Corrosive Blood
Blackfuse - Superheated

Yes, some of these can be removed/mitigated by Cloak. But most of them are applied more often than you can CloS, some of them you would be better saving your Cloak for another mechanic, and half of them can't be removed at all. If your healers are keeping up, then the 30% reduction is not necessary on most of these, of course not, but I'd rather spec Elusiveness and have the option of using my DR when I need it rather than rely on Cheat Death.

Finally, while you could also say that if an emergency happens, feinting to survive that emergency is the same thing as Cheat Death saving you, except Cheat Death is automatic and won't cost you energy... that could be true, but bear in mind that if your healers are struggling for one reason or another (perhaps something has gone wrong?) it might not be YOU that dies. If I Feint and reduce the amount of healing I need, that healing will go to other people instead who might need it more.

Just to reiterate though, I really don't think Cheat Death is a bad talent. It has its uses, and is a useful anti-error tool especially when you are making your first progress tries on a fight and aren't familiar with the mechanics or where the high damage portions are going to come in... it's Leeching I want to see a change to.

[shadowboy]

How often is that actually relevant? The vast majority of things that can kill you in a raid setting are AoE. Off the top of my head I can't come up with that many mechanics that aren't considered AoE that are dangerous enough to need a 30% single target reduction, Lei Shen winds in p3 is the only one that comes to mind and for most of those mechanics we have a very powerful cooldown in cloak that works on most of those mechanics (not on Lei Shen which makes that fight a good one for elusiveness).

Given the relative rarity of mechanics where elusiveness is well suited and needed beyond our already powerful toolkit I consider cheat death to be the default talent on that tier swapping to elusiveness only on fights where it is well suited (for example Lei Shen for the reasons mentioned above).

The dot from haromm on dark shaman towards the end of the duration hits pretty hard and can be fatal, elusiveness works on that. Also iron prisons. But really those are about all I can think of.

[Maelstrom51]

Immerseus - Swelling Corruption

Not dangerous.

He Softfoot - Garrote

Long duration low damage DoT. It also goes away off the whole raid the quicker you push the bosses through their phases. Not well suited imo.

Sha of Pride - Mark of Arrogance

Should be dispelled.

Galakras - Flames of Galakras

Not dangerous and cloakable.

Iron Juggernaut - Laser Burn

Reasonable, but if you have the heals to stay in during siege phase healers shouldn't have problems with it.

Dark Shaman - Toxic Mist, Iron Prison.

With the frequency you get Iron Prison Cheat Death works just as well.
Toxic mist is reasonable but its practically constant. Healers should be taking care of it.

General Nazgrim - Bonecracker and Arcane Shock

Low damage DoT and an attack you might get hit by once every 5 pulls. Cheat death is better.

Thok - Corrosive Blood

What else are you going to use cloak on?

Blackfuse - Superheated

Cloak. Shouldn't be getting this often and never more than one stack anyway.

[Leih]

Someone didn't read my post.

Instead you just looked at the list and decided to be clever by pointing out things that are obvious.

- - - Updated - - -

None of these debuffs are dangerous in a normal situation. I said that in my post. But I'd rather have a tool to be able to counter or lessen them in an emergency, rather than a pointless crutch that I'll never see proc because I don't stand in the bad.

- - - Updated - - -

And that's in ADDITION TO the increased mitigation it provides when I use Feint for AOE.

[Demeia]

Baseline Feint is enough for most realistic raiding scenarios, Elusiveness acts as a cool 15% extra mitigation. Leeching Poison is mostly overhealing and deemed worthless unless there is some mechanic where it may shine (Heroic Tortos). Cheat Death is usually perceived as a "scrub talent" because you need to "die" before it becomes useful; however during progression mistakes are known to happen, be it by the Rogue or by someone else.

Basically, I would say that Elusiveness is overrated while Cheat Death is underrated. Something similar happens with Tricks of the Trade, which is more useful for paddling meters than to provide a meaningful raid damage increase, yet it is usually regarded as the pinnacle of Rogue utility.

You have to have a lot of knowledge of individual fight mechanics to get full value out of feint. I think I'm better than average at this but I'm still miles bellow elite rogues. I'd actually think that an average rogue would find Cheat Death more helpful. I'm fairly sure their healers would agree as cheat death can save me from their finger fumble while saving them an extra 15% healing didn't translate into a particularly meaningful benefit at the level of raiding we did. Next expansion, with mana being more of a limiter, I might change my mind and decide the value of feint and being more "up" on encounters.

This still feels like one of the more useful talent choices, though. I'd solo/level with leaching.

Anticipation versus MfD is a more obvious problem (shuriken throw being cooler in concept than in practice). We will level with MfD, though, and we will use it outside and be happy about it for a long while. I anticipate that they will decide they can't fix the talent tree and just nerf anticipation :P.

[Kael]

Let's either stop the in-depth discussion of feint-elusiveness vs. CD or move it to a place that's not about 6.0 rather than current or prior content - we're really crowding this space now.

[Hitei]

Let's either stop the in-depth discussion of feint-elusiveness vs. CD or move it to a place that's not about 6.0 rather than current or prior content - we're really crowding this space now.

Yeah. Clearly there's a mix of feelings on the choice. So I removed the Elusiveness comment. In the latest version tweeted at Celestalon.

I don't necessarily blame Blizzard for having some trouble coming up with new useful utility poisons, but it is pretty frustrating that they put in the time to give hunters exotic ammo, which works exactly like poisons but has more of a choice involvement--as opposed to poisons where you really don't have much of a choice at all.

[Kalshen]

To be fair they won't have much of a choice they will be using poisoned for dps at least we get to have a utility and a dps poison


I'm rejoining the rogue ranks been on break since wrath lol my sig is outdated

[Dextar]

No idea why they nerfed Combat, was running it during Twin Ogrons and even with being able to cleave the other two rogues (assassination) were keeping up with me. *grumble*