Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Ryme]

I'm pretty sure it was never optimal for assassination. You lost the efficiency of all 5cp finishers, you wasted cps sometimes even with a 4 or 5 cp finisher rotation, and I'm not entirely sure ST was better than mutilate anyway.

ST was superior for sub though.

If I recall, it came out about even or slightly below for Subtlety, however, you were still marked as melee so some ranged mechanics ignored you whilst you still played at range which pushed it as a viable way to play.

I believe it was ahead for Assassination since it generated so many more cp/s and still procced deadly poison.

[Linneth]

If I recall, it came out about even or slightly below for Subtlety, however, you were still marked as melee so some ranged mechanics ignored you whilst you still played at range which pushed it as a viable way to play.

I believe it was ahead for Assassination since it generated so many more cp/s and still procced deadly poison.

ST didn't give ranged autoattacks until 5.1, so you were still attacking from melee even while using it. Iirc, it was a dps gain over Mutilate when you had little raid gear, and became a small dps loss after that. As Subtely it was a clear dps increase, though.

[DakonBlackblade]

Because. Anticipation + MFD would be godly. 3 back to back 5 point eviscerates. Pce Health bars (pvp)

Nerf MArked for Death than, and retune the whole row to be in line with it. 2 CP anticipations wouldnt even be worth the troble realy and would just be a massive QoL/fun nerf.

[Ryme]

ST didn't give ranged autoattacks until 5.1, so you were still attacking from melee even while using it. Iirc, it was a dps gain over Mutilate when you had little raid gear, and became a small dps loss after that. As Subtely it was a clear dps increase, though.

Could easily be true, just realised it was nearly two years ago now...

[dak1]

Nerf MArked for Death than, and retune the whole row to be in line with it. 2 CP anticipations wouldnt even be worth the troble realy and would just be a massive QoL/fun nerf.

I don't see any issue with MfD and Anticipation being on the same tier... they seem to compete quite well with one another. The only change I'd make is to how Anticipation functioned... make it just give you visually 10 combo points max and function just like that (not only for damaging finishers).

[Geckoo]

I don't see any issue with MfD and Anticipation being on the same tier... they seem to compete quite well with one another. The only change I'd make is to how Anticipation functioned... make it just give you visually 10 combo points max and function just like that (not only for damaging finishers).

MfD has it's moments in some PvE fights, but overall it feels like a PvE vs PvP talent choice. And shuriken toss entirely out of the picture. If we had a third talent that also had the same theme and felt somehow good enough to take sometimes in both pve and pvp... i'll be fine with them.

Personally as many said, i think anticipation should be baseline with only 2-3 charges and MfD should compete with two strong combo point based talents.

Could easily be true, just realised it was nearly two years ago now...

All i remeber is that i did more damage with shuriken assassination than with mutilate assassination, but as Linneth said, this was with very little raid gear, it didn't last too long either, but it was really fun

[Kael]

Nerf MArked for Death than, and retune the whole row to be in line with it. 2 CP anticipations wouldnt even be worth the troble realy and would just be a massive QoL/fun nerf.

Originally, the main "bonus" of anticipation was "oh god it feels horrible when I press a button and create CPs that will never get used." To the best of my knowledge, that's still the big issue with not having it -- our finishers are intended to cost max capacity (not counting the old assassination 4+ rule), but we generate 1-4 CP at a time atm. Having an "overflow" space is what makes CP (not mechanically, but in intended function) feel very smooth - like anyone else that uses a modified CP resource (Chi, SOrbs, HoPo), all of which use fewer "CP" than they can hold. Cats and rogues, up to Anticipation, have always been capped at 5, and that feels awkward enough that 90%+ of the rogue population takes anticipation over MFD (or ST) regardless of which talent is currently ahead.

I don't see how having 7 CP (finishers cost 5) wouldn't fulfill the need of "omg I was at 4 and got 3, FML".

[DakonBlackblade]

I don't see any issue with MfD and Anticipation being on the same tier... they seem to compete quite well with one another. The only change I'd make is to how Anticipation functioned... make it just give you visually 10 combo points max and function just like that (not only for damaging finishers).

94% of all rogues get Anticipation cause it makes playing rogues just better, its not related to DPS gains it simply amkes the class more enjoyable.

Originally, the main "bonus" of anticipation was "oh god it feels horrible when I press a button and create CPs that will never get used." To the best of my knowledge, that's still the big issue with not having it -- our finishers are intended to cost max capacity (not counting the old assassination 4+ rule), but we generate 1-4 CP at a time atm. Having an "overflow" space is what makes CP (not mechanically, but in intended function) feel very smooth - like anyone else that uses a modified CP resource (Chi, SOrbs, HoPo), all of which use fewer "CP" than they can hold. Cats and rogues, up to Anticipation, have always been capped at 5, and that feels awkward enough that 90%+ of the rogue population takes anticipation over MFD (or ST) regardless of which talent is currently ahead.

I don't see how having 7 CP (finishers cost 5) wouldn't fulfill the need of "omg I was at 4 and got 3, FML".

It changes how you randle your combat rotation and assas rotation for sure, having those 5 extra charges, specially for assas, just make the whole energy polling to use a bunch of mutilates ina row much better cause ou dont relay have to worry with needing to clip your envenom duration by casting another nvenom to avoid wasting CPs. this is kind of an issue with the Assas T17 tier btw, it gives you so many Cps you basically envenom more than you mutilate (wich in the T17 scenario is a good thing as youre gaining free Cps and doing more damage even clipping envenoms durations non stop but is still kinda wierd).

[Taeyon]

The main benefit of Anticipation is to catch spill over cps which would otherwise be lost without a cap over 5. Talking with fiery a day ago on IRC, it is definitely overrated in its effectiveness. If it were made baseline and with 2-3 cp overflow this would still allow us to benefit from hitting generators to 5 and using spill over cps for free.

It would also allow more interesting choices for the tier.

[Leih]

Anticipation's power isn't really important. It's just that it makes the rotation flow smoother, be a little more forgiving when mechanics get in the way of your rotation, and allows for deeper and more interesting gameplay. Being able to pool CPs so you can get two finishers back-to-back, while not normally DPS increase in PVE, is a nice feature that just lets the class DO more. Sometimes having a bit more depth and flexibility is a lot more fun than only having one way to do things, even if it's not an outright power gain.

[Taeyon]

Anticipation's power isn't really important. It's just that it makes the rotation flow smoother, be a little more forgiving when mechanics get in the way of your rotation, and allows for deeper and more interesting gameplay. Being able to pool CPs so you can get two finishers back-to-back, while not normally DPS increase in PVE, is a nice feature that just lets the class DO more. Sometimes having a bit more depth and flexibility is a lot more fun than only having one way to do things, even if it's not an outright power gain.

You aren't doing MORE though, it's a trap.

The power is really important especially the notion that it's the best talent in that tier, when 90% of rogues take it doesn't that say something?

If it was baseline it would remove this dead tier and allow for actual interesting talents like MfD and Shuriken and another placeholder to be chosen.

[Kalshen]

Every single class that uses cp variants has spill over mechanics baseline. It just allows it to work better anticipation should be baseline I would love to use mfd but I see no reason to complicate things for minimal gains I'm not doing cutting edge raiding anymore just normals and the occasional Heroic raid nothing serious.

[Leih]

You aren't doing MORE though, it's a trap.

Since I've no idea what you mean by this in the context of my post, I can only assume you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't arguing for or against making it baseline (actually if you read any of my posts when we talked this to death weeks ago you'd see I'm FOR making it baseline in some manner). Just saying that the reason it's taken by >90% of Rogues isn't just because of the power or the DPS gain of it, but how it makes the class play and feel.

It gives you more options for how to generate and spend your combo points. Without Anticipation, you are building to 4-5, spending on 4-5. Rinse, repeat. With the ability to pool combo points, you now also have the option to generate to 10, then spend twice in a row, or generate to 10, spend one, and keep one pooled in reserve. Or anything in between. Obviously, there's an optimal way to play and all raiders play that way, but there's a lot more to the game than tunnel-visioning a Patchwerk boss, and all sorts of niche little situations can be catered for with more flexible Combo Points, which is cool.

While, obviously, there's an optimal way to play for maximum DPS, that's not the point. It gives you MORE options for how to play, and that's a good thing. If there's one thing a lot of WoW classes lack at the moment, it's depth.

[Hitei]

In other news.

I really hope this makes it live.
Army of the rogue might be the new swirlyball.

[Razhiel]

^
What's going on in that pic?

[Leih]

So many Griftahs....

[Hitei]

^
What's going on in that pic?

Our pickpocket system was altered so that you now loot these tokens and turn them into an NPC that you summon with an item.
The item has a 1 second CD and apparently, in its current form, does not un-summon the last one you summoned. So you can spam the item and summon a ton of them before they start hitting their despawn timer.

I gathered some information on the new system and might make a thread about it.. since I haven't really seen it explained anywhere.

[dak1]

94% of all rogues get Anticipation cause it makes playing rogues just better, its not related to DPS gains it simply amkes the class more enjoyable.

Not quite. I'd be willing to accept that around 90% of PvE Rogues take Anticipation; however, probably 90% of PvP Rogues take Marked for Death. Anticipation was actually the more preferred PvP talent before Marked for Death, though.

Now, I've been predominately PvP for all of MoP (I did raid hardcore in previous expansions), but when I have done some PvE in MoP (as Subt), I've found that MfD was a DPS gain over Anticipation, but it required much more awareness of CPs and the internal cooldown on HAT procs.

Anticipation may be the better talent for Assassination (I don't know, I haven't played that spec at all this expansion), and it certainly is the easier talent to get max use out of in a PvE environment, but I think part of the reason so many people take Anticipation is simply bandwagoning. If you're really trying to push the envelope, I think MfD can be extremely competitive and in some instances outperform Anticipation.

That seems like a good balance/trade-off to me.

You also can not ever make Anticipation baseline and keep MfD around (it would enable 3 finishers in a row) without at least reducing the spillover from Anticipation to 7 (5+2), as others have also pointed out in this thread. I think the only change I'd make to Anticipation is make it a real 10 combo points, instead of the awkward buff that only sometimes refreshes.

Shuriken Toss on the otherhand...

[Sesshou]

The main benefit of Anticipation is to catch spill over cps which would otherwise be lost without a cap over 5. Talking with fiery a day ago on IRC, it is definitely overrated in its effectiveness. If it were made baseline and with 2-3 cp overflow this would still allow us to benefit from hitting generators to 5 and using spill over cps for free.

It would also allow more interesting choices for the tier.

It is certainly over-rated in that a lot of people actually seem to think that given perfect play anticipation will save more cps than mfd will generate for their spec. I don't think its over-rated at all though in practice.

They should really just basline let cps stack to 7 and get rid of anticipation in its entirety. They seem completely incapable of actually getting anticipation to work with the other mechanics they keep adding to the game, and like other cp type resources, we should just have some basline overflow. This fixes both.

[DakonBlackblade]

Not quite. I'd be willing to accept that around 90% of PvE Rogues take Anticipation; however, probably 90% of PvP Rogues take Marked for Death. Anticipation was actually the more preferred PvP talent before Marked for Death, though.

Now, I've been predominately PvP for all of MoP (I did raid hardcore in previous expansions), but when I have done some PvE in MoP (as Subt), I've found that MfD was a DPS gain over Anticipation, but it required much more awareness of CPs and the internal cooldown on HAT procs.

Anticipation may be the better talent for Assassination (I don't know, I haven't played that spec at all this expansion), and it certainly is the easier talent to get max use out of in a PvE environment, but I think part of the reason so many people take Anticipation is simply bandwagoning. If you're really trying to push the envelope, I think MfD can be extremely competitive and in some instances outperform Anticipation.

That seems like a good balance/trade-off to me.

You also can not ever make Anticipation baseline and keep MfD around (it would enable 3 finishers in a row) without at least reducing the spillover from Anticipation to 7 (5+2), as others have also pointed out in this thread. I think the only change I'd make to Anticipation is make it a real 10 combo points, instead of the awkward buff that only sometimes refreshes.

Shuriken Toss on the otherhand...

As I said it has nothing to do with DPS (save for Assas were it helps a lot in envenom uptime/mutilate usages during envenoms), ppl pick Anticipation cause of Quality of life, simple as that, and thats why it should be baselined, kinda like what they did with Paladin Holy Power. Marked for Death is a DPS gain but a very small one that comes at the cost of Quality of Life and thats why almost no one take it over Anticipation.