Moonkin patchnotes

[lappee]

I'm very curious how well you're performing after the recent changes.

On average, I was well above the middle of the pack. Aka alot better what current simcraft results show.

And yea ppl didnt complain as much (they still complained about the other 2 talents) because stellar flare was at least a good talent. It added a significant increase to the overall dmg and added something to the rotation. With current tuning, even making perfect use of stellar flare, your dmg is not really impacted. That's boring, and if you keep seeing yourself far from the top of the dmg meters, you kinda feel bad at some point.

True, people complained, myself including, when damage was all out of the question. Right now people complain because theres no overpowered alternative to the two. They even complain about a talent being "bad" even when they've never actually had the chance to use it.

Stellar Flare as a talent hasnt changed, its usage is very much the same as it was previously (apart from the small period when all other spells were nerfed, making it seriously stupid spell. Everyone knew it was gonna get nerfed). Its damage difference between lunar/solar peak and 0 point was always close to nothing, just like it is currently. the point about it being used at 0 energy is based on other spells, our main nukes, being bad at that point.

So the "boring" argument about it is bullshit, so is the "perfect use" of it. All you're really whining about is that you're not ridiculously op anymore.

[Gapezilla]

It started doing that after the nerfs to every other spell beforehand and no1 whined like this at that time. Currently its the same as it was couple builds ago rotational wise, only now other talents are on par with it.

Basically you're saying that "This spec is no longer fun because we arent ridiculously op"

What is hard to understand about what I'm saying? I don't give a shit that we're not OP, you're completely misunderstanding. Because Stellar Flare is balanced now we're forced to take shitty, boring talents for single target. My problem is with Balance of Power and Euphoria being shit, not with moonkin having lower dps. Honestly, they should bring down every class that's doing over 20k single target sustained to that level, so that we don't have a retarded scaling issue by the end of the expansion again, moonkin included.

[Deleted]

Agree with Gap, if we have to go BoP (even if it's only a few fights) for max dps it's going to make for an insanely boring rotation (3 buttons). While it would be awesome to have different talent options depending on the encounter, all options should add depth, not remove it. In the current state it's basically a choice between a "hard" rotation with less dps or an easy rotation with more dps. Basically rewarded for doing less.

[lappee]

What is hard to understand about what I'm saying? I don't give a shit that we're not OP, you're completely misunderstanding. Because Stellar Flare is balanced now we're forced to take shitty, boring talents for single target. My problem is with Balance of Power and Euphoria being shit, not with moonkin having lower dps. Honestly, they should bring down every class that's doing over 20k single target sustained to that level, so that we don't have a retarded scaling issue by the end of the expansion again, moonkin included.

You're not forced to do anything as of yet. Personally even today I got better results with Stellar Flare than BoP, but thats not even my point. My point was that you're whining now when you "have" to take it, instead when beta was in the phase of working around the rotations and stuff. We all knew from the very first moment that BoP and Euphoria were going to be the single target talents, it was clear as a day to anyone who had any clue of how the spec was going to work. The ones who did, did express their concerns about the talents. My problem is with people who just go out and cry now that they "have" to use them because Stellar Flare isnt stupidly op anymore.

Also a funny fact that you're calling Euphoria "shit" when you havent even had the chance to use it - Just clearly proves my point.

[Tig]

IDK I personally like Euphoria and I have since day 1. I also like the way it works with SotF. Stellar Flare is a great talent, I think the nerf was maybe a little to much though. BoP is a little boring to use, but will most likely be the single target option. maybe Euphoria and SotF for a few targets and Stellar Flare for multi targets idk. I've actually not been using Stellar Flare that much because I knew it would get nerfed and didnt want to get used to it. If you didn't see that coming then idk what to tell you. But I have disliked boomkin since they changed it back in 4.0 for Cata. So I was happy they were gonna change it from what it is on live. Is it a perfect spec, no i don't think so. But I do think it's a step in the right direction compared to live. Live play style is insanely boring to me. Beta is less boring, but there is still a lot of room for improvement. Incarnation is still strong of course, and will always be a solid choice for some fights IMO. I wish they would make FoN more usable. For high movement fights maybe, if they could tune it right that would be a great choice I think.

[timmytompadderham]

IDK I personally like Euphoria and I have since day 1. I also like the way it works with SotF. Stellar Flare is a great talent, I think the nerf was maybe a little to much though. BoP is a little boring to use, but will most likely be the single target option. maybe Euphoria and SotF for a few targets and Stellar Flare for multi targets idk. I've actually not been using Stellar Flare that much because I knew it would get nerfed and didnt want to get used to it. If you didn't see that coming then idk what to tell you. But I have disliked boomkin since they changed it back in 4.0 for Cata. So I was happy they were gonna change it from what it is on live. Is it a perfect spec, no i don't think so. But I do think it's a step in the right direction compared to live. Live play style is insanely boring to me. Beta is less boring, but there is still a lot of room for improvement. Incarnation is still strong of course, and will always be a solid choice for some fights IMO. I wish they would make FoN more usable. For high movement fights maybe, if they could tune it right that would be a great choice I think.

? Euphoria doesn't work at all besides cast time reduction?

[Tig]

Yeah , which i like. especially on a high movement fight or something.

[Cyous]

Yeah , which i like. especially on a high movement fight or something.

All it does, mechanically, is give you more MF/SnF impact damage....which you use 1 per two cycle for MF, and 1 per cycle for Sunfire....so...you get 1 instance of +100% damage to DD Sunfire over 40sec.

Boring.

[Criminalle]

So, Stellar Flare gets nerfed and this outcry happens that has nothing to do with Stellar Flare? Thats quite something

I posted when they removed snapshotting that it made stellar flare boring and invalidated the spell's niche. I honestly for the longest time felt Balance of Power was a placeholder. I dont care about the nerf, it was required.

Thy just dont seem like they know where they want to go with the specc. My outcry is actualy mostly cause i realize this game is going to launch with Balance in its current state rotation and synergy-wise. You will notice in my previous specc, i didn't mention ANYTHING about actual numbers of StlrFlare or any spell for that matter.

TlDR specc has no clear direction.

[lappee]

All it does, mechanically, is give you more MF/SnF impact damage....which you use 1 per two cycle for MF, and 1 per cycle for Sunfire....so...you get 1 instance of +100% damage to DD Sunfire over 40sec.

Boring.

Technically, it also gives you more empowered starfire's/wraths at peaktimes.

However I think its usefullness comes in play with encounter mechanics, rather than moonkin standstill mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

TlDR specc has no clear direction.

I never called out any names, but you cant argue with how it worked. Stellar Flare got its nerf, people got to test it out and saw they're not on the top of damage meters anymore. Suddenly huge outcry. 1+1=2

Also, I think blizzard has pretty clear direction with the spec. They havent done any significant changes to it after the initial patch notes. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean they dont have it.

[xtramuscle]

I never called out any names, but you cant argue with how it worked. Stellar Flare got its nerf, people got to test it out and saw they're not on the top of damage meters anymore. Suddenly huge outcry. 1+1=2

I think while flare was 'op' its all that people used. Without a doubt it is the best talent, for the way the class plays, regardless of the numbers it pushes.
Now it has been nerfed (and rightly so, although perhaps they hit it a little too hard) people are now trying the other options and realizing exactly how dumb they are.

Last night on Gruul testing the other boomkin said to me 'it almost feels as though its not worth casting flare' and in fairness he was right. Now perhaps you could argue in that situation we should have used another talent, but even you said you had some tries where you pulled better ST DPS with flare than BOP. I just don't think its good game design when you feel its not worth casting you max level talent.

Level 100 talents should be the 'wow factor' at max level. Sure the difference between level 99 gear, and level 100 end tier raid content will be huge, but it's the level 100 talent that should make you feel instantly stronger.

I realise flare will be difficult to balance (although personally I think it should be a really powerful dot with no initial damage, perhaps to complicate it, and to emphasis the 'niche' and removal of snap shotting it could only be cast between -/+ 25 of the eclipse bar with no cast time) aka you have this 10 second window to apply it (think sunfire 2.0) but if u get it up on max targets in that time it'll be sick.

As for the other talents I don't think a damage increase will be enough. Sure we'll play the talent that gives us the most dps, but can you imagine raiding against the butcher or gruul or oregorger and only casting moonfire/sunfire starfire wrath and starsurge. Yeah I'd say that's easy to learn, but on single target starfall wont be a thing, SS usage should be near to perfect, where is the hard to master supposed to be coming from?

Ultimately I believe people play boomkin now on live) because it's a little more complicated than other casters if you really want to min max it. The rotation is pretty standard, but with dot snap shotting (perhaps in earlier content not so much now) cooldown management and movement really hurting our dps planning and execution is a big part - but as I touched on in an earlier post trinkets etc have no effect on us at all now, there will be a set time when cooldowns are best, it feels like the class plays itself and we're just there for the ride and there should be exactly no difference in play style between any boomkin, we should in theory stand there mirroring exactly what each other do - which gives us no way to be better than the next guy. At all. Ever.

[Deleted]

nice changes i like it!!

[Deleted]

Im gonna have to say, with what i have tested of Euphoria, i like the cast speed reduction, im not a fan of the insanely long cast time on starfire, so for single target i have no issues running Euphoria, BOP is very boring and adds more passiveness to the spec.

Im a terrible theory crafter and even i could see that they wanted Flare for multi target and the other two for Single/aoe.

[lappee]

I think while flare was 'op' its all that people used. Without a doubt it is the best talent, for the way the class plays, regardless of the numbers it pushes.
Now it has been nerfed (and rightly so, although perhaps they hit it a little too hard) people are now trying the other options and realizing exactly how dumb they are.

Which is the whole problem, they ignored those talents because they werent the bets dps wise when there was no tuning done whatsoever. Now that Blizzard thought that we're "happy" with the talents, rotations etc they started to do tuning - and surprise, people QQ when their op'ness is gone.

Last night on Gruul testing the other boomkin said to me 'it almost feels as though its not worth casting flare' and in fairness he was right. Now perhaps you could argue in that situation we should have used another talent, but even you said you had some tries where you pulled better ST DPS with flare than BOP. I just don't think its good game design when you feel its not worth casting you max level talent.

Its just an illusion, its definitely worth casting. Its just not ridiculously op anymore

Level 100 talents should be the 'wow factor' at max level. Sure the difference between level 99 gear, and level 100 end tier raid content will be huge, but it's the level 100 talent that should make you feel instantly stronger.

I definitely feel myself stronger with these talents, than the talents we got when we dinged level 90.

I realise flare will be difficult to balance (although personally I think it should be a really powerful dot with no initial damage, perhaps to complicate it, and to emphasis the 'niche' and removal of snap shotting it could only be cast between -/+ 25 of the eclipse bar with no cast time) aka you have this 10 second window to apply it (think sunfire 2.0) but if u get it up on max targets in that time it'll be sick.

I dont think Flare is going to be difficult at all to balance, its just up to Blizzard whether they want flare to be competitive in single target dps or not.

Making it only castable while at certain point of eclipse would remove most of its multitarget capacity. If blizz wants that then Im fine with it, but then there would be no real multitarget talent, depending on how long the window would be.

As for the other talents I don't think a damage increase will be enough. Sure we'll play the talent that gives us the most dps, but can you imagine raiding against the butcher or gruul or oregorger and only casting moonfire/sunfire starfire wrath and starsurge. Yeah I'd say that's easy to learn, but on single target starfall wont be a thing, SS usage should be near to perfect, where is the hard to master supposed to be coming from?

Thats what we're currently doing on live. Dont see any problem having a priority system with 5 spells. Or any problem with BoP making it basically 3 spells, as long as alternatives are close to it in dps.

We knew from the very beginning that our stand still single target dps isnt hard to optimize, really the very first day of patch notes but people were excited nevertheless.

Ultimately I believe people play boomkin now on live) because it's a little more complicated than other casters if you really want to min max it. The rotation is pretty standard, but with dot snap shotting (perhaps in earlier content not so much now) cooldown management and movement really hurting our dps planning and execution is a big part - but as I touched on in an earlier post trinkets etc have no effect on us at all now, there will be a set time when cooldowns are best, it feels like the class plays itself and we're just there for the ride and there should be exactly no difference in play style between any boomkin, we should in theory stand there mirroring exactly what each other do - which gives us no way to be better than the next guy. At all. Ever.

Trinkets etc will still have an effect on how we play, if we really want to min-max. It just doesnt work the same way as it currently does on live.

Even on currently live we should basically be mirroring each others, and if ya try to say that shooting stars and trinket procs make their rotations different then i'll just say it right back to you as they're both still there.

People seem to have hard time figuring out whats important in the new mechanics.

[Deleted]

Technically, it also gives you more empowered starfire's/wraths at peaktimes.

I don't see why it would. You still spent the exact same time at any given point of the cycle. If anything, it should give LESS empowered casts during peaks. Say you are on an unlucky streak and only get 1 SS per 20 sec, w/o euphoria you would cast one per peak, while /w it you would cast one every other peak, but that peak would be half as long, so fewer casts would be during the peak.

About the BoP being the the best option for single target, I don't see why you would expect a talent that simplifies the rotation rather than complicate it should ever be better. I'm fine with only having 1 choice in L100 talents for pve (Stellar Flare), actually I'd rather that was the case than having BoP being better dps. Thus no reason to "complain" about it when it was scaled to always be worse than SFl for pve.

[xtramuscle]

Trinkets etc will still have an effect on how we play, if we really want to min-max.

Care to elaborate? So you're cycling through and an auto trinket procs, it isn't going change your rotation, you don't need to re-dot or anything different as snap shotting isn't a thing.

You have an on-use trinket, depending on its cd/duration you'll either pop it at the lunar eclipse, or macro it into your cooldowns.

Neither of which will make you adapt to their proc or use at all. Unless I'm missing something?

[lappee]

I don't see why it would. You still spent the exact same time at any given point of the cycle. If anything, it should give LESS empowered casts during peaks. Say you are on an unlucky streak and only get 1 SS per 20 sec, w/o euphoria you would cast one per peak, while /w it you would cast one every other peak, but that peak would be half as long, so fewer casts would be during the peak.

Even with Euphoria present, you'll be able to squeeze all empowered casts into the peak. Now without Euphoria, we are using 3-4 starsurges per cycle meaning that not all of them are used at a peak time. With Euphoria you would be, more likely atleast.

About the BoP being the the best option for single target, I don't see why you would expect a talent that simplifies the rotation rather than complicate it should ever be better. I'm fine with only having 1 choice in L100 talents for pve (Stellar Flare), actually I'd rather that was the case than having BoP being better dps. Thus no reason to "complain" about it when it was scaled to always be worse than SFl for pve.

I would expect a single target dps talent to be better on single target dps than a multidot talent. Dont you?

- - - Updated - - -

Care to elaborate? So you're cycling through and an auto trinket procs, it isn't going change your rotation, you don't need to re-dot or anything different as snap shotting isn't a thing.

You have an on-use trinket, depending on its cd/duration you'll either pop it at the lunar eclipse, or macro it into your cooldowns.

Neither of which will make you adapt to their proc or use at all. Unless I'm missing something?

In both cases, you'll know about when the trinket is about to proc. You can starsurges for it, having more empowered casts with trinkets up. That is different than what we'd do without trinket effects. Heck it could even mean using AC for a second or two to get better use of a trinket proc, depending how good it is

[Sunrise]

for now my only concern is the DPS we are now far away from mage/demo

[Miraclous]

"BoP is an interesting talent" said nobody ever. I'm pretty sure throughout the 112 pages this thread is atm, everyone that is a regular poster had already mentioned at least once that they did not like BoP before the flare nerf. It makes sense to me that now that BoP looks like a valid option we start having a better look at it. To noone's surprise BoP is still as boring as a couple of months back and this is confirmed in the posts. People seem to be somewhat divided about Euphoria, when personally I am really interested to find out how the increased cycling speed of Euphoria will change our play on bossfights.

I am actually hoping somewhat for Flare to be a baseline ability for balance and us just having another talent in it´s place. I got nothing to possibly put on my `2´ hotkey when not playing with Flare and it´s so sad

[Deleted]

Even with Euphoria present, you'll be able to squeeze all empowered casts into the peak. Now without Euphoria, we are using 3-4 starsurges per cycle meaning that not all of them are used at a peak time. With Euphoria you would be, more likely atleast.

I completely forgot about the extra cast speed <.< Still, with only 1 SS per eclipse(20s) no euphoria is better (20% increased cast speed isn't going to make up for 100% reduced peak length) but with 2 SS per eclipse(20s) Euphoria would indeed allow for more empowered casts during peak.

I would expect a single target dps talent to be better on single target dps than a multidot talent. Dont you?

Might be screaming SINGLE TARGET to you, to me it screams FACEROLL. And I'd expect a faceroll talent to be worse than complicated talents, no matter the encounter.