Moonkin patchnotes

[kosars]

I said realistic situation. Also your "fairly common" situation is so obscure it's the opposite of fairly common. It's not exactly realistic for that situation to occur because if you NEED to kill a pack in 10-30 seconds it's probably a boss fight so there aren't exactly mobs around which you could accidentally pull, and if there are then it's an issue how you cleared the dungeon and the mobs would have likely pulled anyway by someone getting too close to them. Starfall has a radius, it doesn't just hit everything that is visible...

it has a fairly large radius. Significantly larger than prox aggro actually. And why is this situation so "unrealistic"? For that matter, why do trash pulls not count? There's more to the game than raid bosses and pvp, so why exclude most of that?

What if I'm out in the world, and I pull 4-5 guys. Starfall would be pretty good here, if not for the fact that it'd end up pulling more like 20. - yea, I could use guided stars, but at what point does it become useless? - aka, I don't starfall because I'd pull way too much, or I starfall with guided stars, and by the time i've spent the gcds to dot everything at which time the first couple are almost dead, and starfall is now useless, im better off starsurging. (Or i starfall first, then start dotting, and the majority of starfall is wasted - I still should have starsurged).

Dismissing something like that because it's not important to you is just flat out rude. There's a lot to the game, even if you don't do most of it.

You CAN argue it's just a QoL matter, which really, imo, is the only valid argument here (effectiveness vs QoL), but please, don't call it unrealistic, or obscure or uncommon, or unimportant.

[Miraclous]

List 5 realistic situations where you would want Starfall limited that wouldn't be covered by Glyph of Guided Stars and damage is actually a factor, don't just list random trash pulls.

It's pointless listing 5 situations like that, however glyph of guided stars has some flaws. Mainly the fact that you cannot use sunfire in lunar eclipse, which is where you are when combat starts and when you will want to use starfall preferably. So if some adds spawn when you are in lunar, you will have to wait to enter solar to sunfire to be able to actually hit those adds with starfall - in solar eclipse. That seems like it can be quite a dps loss, or a forced delay to use Starfall to me.

Edit: looks like some people before me already made about thesame argument.

[huth]

You're in a dungeon with a bunch of close packs of enemies. You're at 100 lunar. The tank pulls a big group of 10+ enemies that you need to kill in about 10-30 seconds. Ideally you will do something like starfall, astral storm for 10 seconds, starfall, astral storm for 10 more seconds and then hit 0 eclipse, sunfire, hurricane w/e..

A half cycle is only 20 seconds long. Your supposed chain of actions is already 23. By the time that second Hurricane(which no longer turns into Astral Storm) is over, you're already at the Solar peak.

Your "common situation" is not only not common, it's also impossible.

[Bitethe]

wow new glyph of stars looks great

[Glurp]

I hope you guys realize the Starfall range a 40 yard circle with you as the center. Not 40 yards in every direction of you. You'll facepull a mob before Starfall is in range of hitting it. http://www.twitch.tv/beepjeepbeep if you care to watch

[Tarm]

A half cycle is only 20 seconds long. Your supposed chain of actions is already 23. By the time that second Hurricane(which no longer turns into Astral Storm) is over, you're already at the Solar peak.

Your "common situation" is not only not common, it's also impossible.

Oops. I was thinking that the cycle was twice as long as it actually is. I was sloppy when making that example. But in that first 10 seconds we still have the issue I mentioned. If you are using guided stars, you lose out on starfall damage. If you aren't using guided stars, you have to be careful about positioning.

- - - Updated - - -

I hope you guys realize the Starfall range a 40 yard circle with you as the center. Not 40 yards in every direction of you. You'll facepull a mob before Starfall is in range of hitting it. http://www.twitch.tv/beepjeepbeep if you care to watch

Oh wow! That will make positioning much easier to do safely. The current tooltip on wowhead definitely reads as though it is a 40 yard radius: "A Lunar spell that strikes all enemies within 40 yards."

A 20 yard radius could cause other problems though... Having to stand within 20 yards of siegecrafter's mines? No thanks.

[Glurp]

Actually my mistake it is 40 yards in every diection. for some reason the mobs I was testing on were really inconsistent in whether or not they got hit.

[roxfm]

Mechanically Boomkins are very solid so I see no reason why they wouldn't be viable.

CMs have favoured mobile, and quick damage dealers over slower versions by a long shot. The current situation forces us to become really slow since we need to go through 0 to 100 lunar to 0 to solar before being able to use dot spread and starfall.

Also, Starfire is even slower now. As long as CMs remain a race against time, Hunters, Mages, Locks, Ele, and even shadow will remain as better alternatives to a Boomy.

Yes, we can now AC on the move, and that will make it better for a sunfire dot spread with starfall, but we are still limited to options when out of it. There will be a lot of downtime when we're not doing anything due to Eclipse still snapshotting. Just to be clear - this is a relative comparison with other ranged damage dealers, not a standalone viability for a raid boss fight.

I really wished they give us a minor glyph like this:
Glyph of reverse polarities: Upon entering combat, your Eclipse now starts towards Solar instead of Lunar.

Edit: I also feel that anytime we are forced to use a glyph 70%+ of duration of fights overall, it becomes nearly mandatory. Guided stars will become like that and (my feeling) is so will the AC on the move glyph. Either make those baseline, or design stuff around them.

[Dreyen]

So that it can be taken out of the single target rotation and augment the balance druid aoe toolkit so that it isn't abysmal like it was in MoP.


It is a real alternative because sunfire hits every mob. I agree, however, that there's little room to change the behavior. I've asked multiple times on the forums+twitter for the old glyph http://www.wowhead.com/spell=62080/glyph-of-focus to return to allow more customization of starfall.

Having a 40yard aoe that radiates from a player is really unique and powerful, I wouldn't want MoP starfall back.

In specific situations, it will be horrible, sunfire wont hit everything either, especially in spread scenarios... or when youre not solar eclipsed. I'm not really looking forward to have to glyph or hold back starfall for challenge modes with mobs you dont want to pull.

There's simply no benefit to starfall not pulling mobs out of combat baseline. If they really want that back in the game, just make a glyph to make starfall hit mobs that arent in combat.

[roxfm]

There's simply no benefit to starfall not pulling mobs out of combat baseline. If they really want that back in the game, just make a glyph to make starfall hit mobs that arent in combat.

This more than anything. I cannot think of a scenario where pulling out of combat mobs is something that o really desire - at least during stuff that matters. Sure it would be great for clearing old instances for loot, raids and what not - but not in current content raids, CMs, instances, scenarios etc.

Also, looking over at the realm best times for CMs almost all DPS (over 95%) are Mage, Lock, Hunter or Ele. Sure, these classes are losing some of their mobile DPS, but their deliverance mechanics are still better to that of moonkins. (And for the record - poor melee).

In a relatively equal playing field, you would see at most a 60/40 skew between ranged/melee, and within each type, at least some better representation of specs.

Unless there is a major change to CMs themselves, it is unlikely that we would see much change in those DPS distribution

[timmytompadderham]

This more than anything. I cannot think of a scenario where pulling out of combat mobs is something that o really desire - at least during stuff that matters. Sure it would be great for clearing old instances for loot, raids and what not - but not in current content raids, CMs, instances, scenarios etc.

Also, looking over at the realm best times for CMs almost all DPS (over 95%) are Mage, Lock, Hunter or Ele. Sure, these classes are losing some of their mobile DPS, but their deliverance mechanics are still better to that of moonkins. (And for the record - poor melee).

In a relatively equal playing field, you would see at most a 60/40 skew between ranged/melee, and within each type, at least some better representation of specs.

Unless there is a major change to CMs themselves, it is unlikely that we would see much change in those DPS distribution

This is the most rediculous post I've read in a while on this site and that's saying a lot... Every single sentence almost that you made is an unlikely projection that you've decided to draw a conclusion on...

In a relatively equal playing field, you would see at most a 60/40 skew between ranged/melee, and within each type, at least some better representation of specs.

wtf?

but their deliverance mechanics are still better to that of moonkins. (And for the record - poor melee).

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[rooftrellen]

This dolson guy really has a good point...

[roxfm]

This is the most rediculous post I've read in a while on this site and that's saying a lot... Every single sentence almost that you made is an unlikely projection that you've decided to draw a conclusion on...

wtf?

I'm not sure why you missed the point of the post, but I'll try again. My post was to point out two things - our mechanics (eclipse, slow casts, starfall in the current state of beta) as they interact in Challenge Modes (CM), raids, open world, scenarios, 5-mans, etc. I'll break down the points for you again.

The first point was that there's absolutely no need for them to change starfall aggroing out-of-combat OOC mobs by default, that too in a 40-yard range. The tweets by Celestalon hints that they don't want to add back glyph of focus so I'm assuming that the 40-yard mongoloid pull that starfall should do is here to stay for the time being. Now in current content, such as fresh lvl 100 5-man heroics, CMs, current-content hub (for e.g. Isle of Thunder, Timeless Isle, etc) there's close to zero benefit for starfall to pull everything in range.

Most of the development philosophy is leaning towards having hard-hitting mobs in zones/hubs and the mobs there - usually beyond 4-5 will likely result in death. This is not assumption through an unlikely projection as you state, but rather an educated guess as to what looks like we will be doing in WoD. If you think otherwise, please prove why you feel that aggroing all the elites at firewalker's path or Ordos' area, or similarly challenging content, is a good thing.

The 2nd point was towards CMs specifically. If you look at the current realm best times, (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/community/ WoW site -> Community -> Challenge Modes), almost 95%+ of them use ranged DPS exclusively. Within those ranged DPS, almost all are using a combination of 3 classes out of: Mage/Lock/Hunter/Elemental. This goes to show that melee are highly unwanted in CMs, and within ranged classes, Spriests and Moonkins are largely unwanted. In an equal world, at least ONE of the 3 DPS needed for a CM will be melee. Sometimes, 2 of the 3 melee. Hence the 60/40 skew that I mentioned. But that's not what we're seeing right now, and there's little information that suggests that things will be dramatically different due to the plentiful mechanics that nearly 1-shot any non-tank.

The last part you highlighted about the deliverance mechanics - other ranged classes have more dynamic and/or easier AOE in a situation where time is of the essence. We are doing well (from what I've read about overall DPS states) in beta on a single boss fight that lasts 4+ minutes, but CMs are not something like that. Again, if you don't agree, at least post a compelling argument where a moonkin can dish out equal damage to a lock, mage, or shaman when we're going in and out of combat quickly and our eclipse bar resets at 0 and starts towards lunar.

[xtramuscle]

I actually got a beta inv \o/ but now I have to leave for work :'( hopefully I'll get some time on it tomorrow.

[Criminalle]

It literally takes 3 second to AC from lunar peak to solar...i just dont see how it is challenging to time ur Eclipse between trash pulls in dungeons or raids....

Although i would like you to be able to set rthe direction of ur eclipse when out of combat. so u could say go into solar after a reset instead of always going into lunar.

[roxfm]

It literally takes 3 second to AC from lunar peak to solar...i just dont see how it is challenging to time ur Eclipse between trash pulls in dungeons or raids....

Although i would like you to be able to set the direction of ur eclipse when out of combat. so u could say go into solar after a reset instead of always going into lunar.

AC from entering combat -> at least mid-Solar is around 7-8 seconds right? So you starsurge once to get to peak Solar -> Sunfire -> starfall for a decent AOE spread and not pull the room. Once you're out of combat, must repeat the same process. That 7-8 seconds is the downtime I'm referring to, which is what other classes don't need to do. It is my opinion that with the current (beta) mechanics, we will be relatively less desired than our pure DPS and Elemental shamans - purely because of mechanics, not a numbers pass point of view.

[timmytompadderham]

I'm not sure why you missed the point of the post, but I'll try again. My post was to point out two things - our mechanics (eclipse, slow casts, starfall in the current state of beta) as they interact in Challenge Modes (CM), raids, open world, scenarios, 5-mans, etc. I'll break down the points for you again.

The first point was that there's absolutely no need for them to change starfall aggroing out-of-combat OOC mobs by default, that too in a 40-yard range. The tweets by Celestalon hints that they don't want to add back glyph of focus so I'm assuming that the 40-yard mongoloid pull that starfall should do is here to stay for the time being. Now in current content, such as fresh lvl 100 5-man heroics, CMs, current-content hub (for e.g. Isle of Thunder, Timeless Isle, etc) there's close to zero benefit for starfall to pull everything in range.

Most of the development philosophy is leaning towards having hard-hitting mobs in zones/hubs and the mobs there - usually beyond 4-5 will likely result in death. This is not assumption through an unlikely projection as you state, but rather an educated guess as to what looks like we will be doing in WoD. If you think otherwise, please prove why you feel that aggroing all the elites at firewalker's path or Ordos' area, or similarly challenging content, is a good thing.

The 2nd point was towards CMs specifically. If you look at the current realm best times, (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/community/ WoW site -> Community -> Challenge Modes), almost 95%+ of them use ranged DPS exclusively. Within those ranged DPS, almost all are using a combination of 3 classes out of: Mage/Lock/Hunter/Elemental. This goes to show that melee are highly unwanted in CMs, and within ranged classes, Spriests and Moonkins are largely unwanted. In an equal world, at least ONE of the 3 DPS needed for a CM will be melee. Sometimes, 2 of the 3 melee. Hence the 60/40 skew that I mentioned. But that's not what we're seeing right now, and there's little information that suggests that things will be dramatically different due to the plentiful mechanics that nearly 1-shot any non-tank.

The last part you highlighted about the deliverance mechanics - other ranged classes have more dynamic and/or easier AOE in a situation where time is of the essence. We are doing well (from what I've read about overall DPS states) in beta on a single boss fight that lasts 4+ minutes, but CMs are not something like that. Again, if you don't agree, at least post a compelling argument where a moonkin can dish out equal damage to a lock, mage, or shaman when we're going in and out of combat quickly and our eclipse bar resets at 0 and starts towards lunar.

When you make projections about WoD CMs using MoP data I can't take your post seriously. I have personally asked for glyph of focus to make a return and I am in favor of glyphs to alter the behavior of the balance druid signature spell. Going as far as saying that this would have a negative impact on CMs is ridiculous. It would be a minor inconvenience to use glyph of stars, but sunfire cleave and astral communion make it fairly easy. Honestly, threat is a joke right now and using starfall to pull mobs to the tank could actually be useful rather than a burden in some cases. If you are doing a CM and trying to carefully pull 2-3 mobs at a time you wouldn't be using starfall anyway. If you can list realistic situations in MoP content where this would be detrimental it would really help illustrate why removing the combat check is a problem. The timeless isle scenario of aggroing too many mobs when you only would be pulling a few mobs at a time is stupid. If you can't handle that many mobs it's not the right situation to use starfall anyway. It's a 4+ target aoe.

erm not sure where you are going with the "deliverance mechanics" still. You could have just used plain English. Every class has easy-to-use aoe, including balance in WoD. The eclipse bar doesn't stop moving until 30 seconds after combat, AC moves the bar incredibly fast, but you do more starfall damage in lunar and can multidot w/ moonfire. Deciding that balance aoe will be bad already is a far reach.

Finally there's no reason to bring melee vs ranged into this discussion. 60/40 or whatever you said is useless info and so is the discussion of melee vs ranged. Melee will be more valuable in Warlords for high movement, but so will ranged dps that are good at minimizing their movement. WoD CMs =! Mists CMs. Never seen such unrealistic arguments on this forum. I'd listen to John Boehnr for 5 minutes if I wanted to hear such weak arguments.

[huth]

AC from entering combat -> at least mid-Solar is around 7-8 seconds right? So you starsurge once to get to peak Solar -> Sunfire -> starfall for a decent AOE spread and not pull the room. Once you're out of combat, must repeat the same process. That 7-8 seconds is the downtime I'm referring to, which is what other classes don't need to do. It is my opinion that with the current (beta) mechanics, we will be relatively less desired than our pure DPS and Elemental shamans - purely because of mechanics, not a numbers pass point of view.

Only for boss fights with an AoE phase right at the beginning. For trash, it doesn't really matter, and in a CM, you'll probably not be out of combat for long enough to have Eclipse reset.

[timmytompadderham]

Only for boss fights with an AoE phase right at the beginning. For trash, it doesn't really matter, and in a CM, you'll probably not be out of combat for long enough to have Eclipse reset.

If you CA on the pull you'd be able to get the full benefit of hurricane, sunfire cleave and a buffed starfall I assume, unless CA works different in WoD.

[huth]

If you CA on the pull you'd be able to get the full benefit of hurricane, sunfire cleave and a buffed starfall I assume, unless CA works different in WoD.

It does work differently, but not in a way that is relevant to this. It gives an addition 20% damage bonus to everything and pauses Eclipse, rather than resetting to 0. Other than that, it gives the full benefits of both Eclipses at once, including both MF and SunF.