[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[Frost1129]

Are we seriously about to get into an argument about an ability we've never used, and have ZERO clue what it actually effects? Seriously? Can we check the stupid at the door please. Save that for the Beta.

[Northem]

It is better? You can use it 6 times in the time you could use one ice block, 13 in the time you could use two, and you can continue casting while evanesced, and it can be cast while casting, and doesn't immobilise you.

But will [Evanesce] remove all debuffs? Obviously not ... Then it's not to the level of [Ice Block], so it seems that is a bad substitute...

I prefer that [Evanesce] is transformed into a kind of [Mage Ward], the arcane mages need magic shields! Blizzard has removed us all of them!

Are we seriously about to get into an argument about an ability we've never used, and have ZERO clue what it actually effects? Seriously? Can we check the stupid at the door please. Save that for the Beta.

Yes, it is best to keep quiet. It will come the time to complain ... when it is too late ... as always ...

I really enjoyed all the Mage talents of level 90 in MoP ....

[Frost1129]

Yes, it is best to keep quiet. It will come the time to complain ... when it is too late ... as always ...

I really enjoyed all the Mage talents of level 90 in MoP ....

You don't even know how it works. Stop being an idiot. There could very well be fights where it is superior to have that over IB, and other fights where you want IB due to Evanesce not functioning on important abilities. but guess what? You don't know yet.

[Deleted]

Back on the topic - I tweeted at Celestalon but I didn't get a response, but wanted to know some people's thoughts here:

I'm worried that with the changes to AT and the removal of PoM, fire mages effectively will have no reliable on demand DPS CD. In other words - compared to frost (Icy Veins) or Arcane (Arcane Power) or really, nearly every other DPS spec in the game, fire mages won't be able to control their use of DPS CD's to a specific time. I think this is silently a huge nerf to the spec, as there are often times in fights where you need to be able to burst to meet DPS checks (Regenerative Amber on Paragons, for example) and fire mages will have to pray to RNGesus to even more than normal at those times.

This will exacerbated by losing the current T16 4P, lining up 3 crit pyros in a row without using PoM or AT is already hard right now even with the 4P. Without it and without either of those other abilities, it's going to be pretty hard to have a decent ignite on demand to use combustion.

Do you guys think fire should have a straight throughput DPS CD to use on demand, ala Icy Veins or Arcane Power? Maybe nerf combustion slightly and make it more a core part of the rotation than a CD? I just feel like removing AT + PoM leaves fire with a pretty big hole when it comes to usable on demand DPS CD's.

[Orrin]

Back on the topic - I tweeted at Celestalon but I didn't get a response, but wanted to know some people's thoughts here:

I'm worried that with the changes to AT and the removal of PoM, fire mages effectively will have no reliable on demand DPS CD.

Focusing Crystal + Mirror Images can serve as good dps cooldowns for Fire

[Frost1129]

Focusing Crystal + Mirror Images can serve as good dps cooldowns for Fire

So Fire is completely tied to specific talents to have any kind of control? How is that good design?

- - - Updated - - -

Back on the topic - I tweeted at Celestalon but I didn't get a response, but wanted to know some people's thoughts here:

I'm worried that with the changes to AT and the removal of PoM, fire mages effectively will have no reliable on demand DPS CD. In other words - compared to frost (Icy Veins) or Arcane (Arcane Power) or really, nearly every other DPS spec in the game, fire mages won't be able to control their use of DPS CD's to a specific time. I think this is silently a huge nerf to the spec, as there are often times in fights where you need to be able to burst to meet DPS checks (Regenerative Amber on Paragons, for example) and fire mages will have to pray to RNGesus to even more than normal at those times.

This will exacerbated by losing the current T16 4P, lining up 3 crit pyros in a row without using PoM or AT is already hard right now even with the 4P. Without it and without either of those other abilities, it's going to be pretty hard to have a decent ignite on demand to use combustion.

Do you guys think fire should have a straight throughput DPS CD to use on demand, ala Icy Veins or Arcane Power? Maybe nerf combustion slightly and make it more a core part of the rotation than a CD? I just feel like removing AT + PoM leaves fire with a pretty big hole when it comes to usable on demand DPS CD's.

I've tried to bring this up with Celestalon multiple times and he ignores it. Combustion is fine, IF IT GETS SOME SORT OF CONTROL TO BUILD IT. If it doesn't, it's either way too strong since it needs to assume regulat ignite values, or way to shitty if it assumes above average (which is what we produce with PoM/AT) ignite values.

Without combustion building, Fire is also the most boring and non-interactive spec that mages have. Why this has been ignored is fucking mind blowing to me. Fire is shit in comparison to Frost/Arcane in terms of design without smart combustion building being an integral part of it's game play.

[Deleted]

No mage had ever had "on demand" dps CDs. Those kind of dps cds are atleast with 1 minute coodown


By my oppinion Combustion will be way better than it is now.
First the perk - 20% increased duration
Second - Kindling reduce the cooldown of Combustion by 1 second every time you crit with your spells. Yes i know its a talent and trying to fix a spec/class with tallent is wrong design but you have to admit that so far that talent will be way too OP compared to the other two choices.
P.S. this is your control of "building" it. However so far from the notes it seems that they what us to forget that "building", but rather directing us to use Combustion more often
Third - if we add to the fry improved inferno blast that will mean that you can spread Combustion to 4 additional targets(5 total targets affected by it), than what its now 2 additional targets. This will also mean it will most likely will be the default choice for multitarget fights.

The above things and the removal of PoM pyro will dismiss (again by my opinion) the need to "build" huge ignite for combustion and i think those changes are exactly what Blizzard will try to fix with fire - the need to "build" ignite for Combustion. First is way too RNG dependent, second if RNG gods bless you with they favor you will rock the meters, and if they dont - you will hit the bottom and this is very very frustrating feeling.

Blizzard stance was that PoM and Alter Time combo was not the intention how to play fire and they said they will change this gameplay whether we like it or not and thats why they will ignore every tweet/question/etc about saving this kind of gameplay. A wild guess is that they are still messing with fire and Combustion, but only the time and the beta testing will show how will the fire spec enter WoD

[Terahertz]

Why does blizzard INSIST on adding stupid bullshit like Improved Frost Nova? I'm a frost mage player myself who plays PvP, all this change will do is overcomplicate shit and make frost mage ridiculously unfairly OP. Seriously, being able to blink twice in a row? Being able to break stuns twice in a row?

I'm sorry, but this is seriously retarded for both the mage and melee. If anything they should change gap closers and nerf/remove some of the abilities of melee who have too much uptime (enha shamans, warriors, rogues and to a lesser extend ww monks).

Edit: Just wanted to add that I know frost mages will be casting nonstop in WoD, but it's still rather a rather stupid thing to add. Being able to offensively blink CS in, frost nova and blink out is pretty stupid..

[Swizzle]

Why does blizzard INSIST on adding stupid bullshit like Improved Frost Nova? I'm a frost mage player myself who plays PvP, all this change will do is overcomplicate shit and make frost mage ridiculously unfairly OP. Seriously, being able to blink twice in a row? Being able to break stuns twice in a row?

I'm sorry, but this is seriously retarded for both the mage and melee. If anything they should change gap closers and nerf/remove some of the abilities of melee who have too much uptime (enha shamans, warriors, rogues and to a lesser extend ww monks).

Edit: Just wanted to add that I know frost mages will be casting nonstop in WoD, but it's still rather a rather stupid thing to add. Being able to offensively blink CS in, frost nova and blink out is pretty stupid..

Will it be OP? Who knows. I sure don't, but your scenario sounds like extremely poor play from the Mage. You wasted 3 CDs to silence a person? Well played, now the rest of their team can just sit on you!

[Taromillas]

As for the perks, such as improved fireball and whatnot, will we be experiencing an aesthetic change? I think its supposed to be enhanced or improved in some way, it should be represented in a way like that, it could also be a good way to signify higher level mages over lower level ones, giving lower level players more incentive to level up or even boost that class because its aesthetically interesting. Y'know what I mean?
Not to mention, I just want my fireball looking better in general.

[Deleted]

Why does blizzard INSIST on adding stupid bullshit like Improved Frost Nova?

Short Answer:

Spec changes

Arcane
Draenor Perks:

• Improved Blink - Your movement speed is increased by 60% for 2 sec after using Blink.

Fire
Draenor perks:

• Improved Scorch - After casting Scorch, your movement speed is increased by 30% for 3 sec.

Long answer - Blizzard devs are lazy enough to just put that shit, that was discusses so hard few pages ago, instead of put their brains to work and come out with something not so stupidly OP as that... I mean come on... every mage in the world see how this will break Frost PvP to a point where it might become too OP to be able to counter. How doesn't Blizz devs not seeing it?!? Well yeah it is alpha, nothing is really tested and can be changed any time
On the other hand it does fit with frost game play - you always nova if someone reach you in melle range, move out continue nuking. So except for the part that it sound ridiculously OP in pvp it actually does fit in it frost gameplay

[Swizzle]

I mean come on... every mage in the world see how this will break Frost PvP to a point where it might become too OP to be able to counter. How doesn't Blizz devs not seeing it?!?

Because they don't operate in hyperbole, extremes, and conjecture? Taking a wild stab in the dark here, but I'm sure we have NO clue how OP anything will be from just reading tooltips. So, how about we stop acting like development gods and realize we're people who have no idea what's going to happen at level 100 PvP?

[Huevos]

Because they don't operate in hyperbole, extremes, and conjecture? Taking a wild stab in the dark here, but I'm sure we have NO clue how OP anything will be from just reading tooltips. So, how about we stop acting like development gods and realize we're people who have no idea what's going to happen at level 100 PvP?

I'm glad there's someone that sees how ridiculous most of these posts are. It's mindboggling to me that people actually think they know more about how to design this game than Blizzard, especially at this stage when things are far from complete and we have little to no context.

[KurenaiXIII]

I'm glad there's someone that sees how ridiculous most of these posts are. It's mindboggling to me that people actually think they know more about how to design this game than Blizzard, especially at this stage when things are far from complete and we have little to no context.

What I find most amusing is that it's class-universal. _Every_ class forum whines about how Blizzard 'doesn't know their class' 'clearly doesn't understand the game' etc...

C'mon, people. Seriously.

[Imnick]

As much as I agree with you, within a couple of posts I'm sure someone's going to find examples that """prove""" that Blizzard apparently doesn't know the classes or understand their own game and intentionally made everyone hate the class and stop playing it, ensured we were the most useless at pvp, lodged our favourite spec firmly in the toilet for an entire expansion etc
I'm just glad the game isn't designed by a committee of players.

[Deleted]

No mage had ever had "on demand" dps CDs. Those kind of dps cds are atleast with 1 minute coodown


By my oppinion Combustion will be way better than it is now.
First the perk - 20% increased duration
Second - Kindling reduce the cooldown of Combustion by 1 second every time you crit with your spells. Yes i know its a talent and trying to fix a spec/class with tallent is wrong design but you have to admit that so far that talent will be way too OP compared to the other two choices.
P.S. this is your control of "building" it. However so far from the notes it seems that they what us to forget that "building", but rather directing us to use Combustion more often
Third - if we add to the fry improved inferno blast that will mean that you can spread Combustion to 4 additional targets(5 total targets affected by it), than what its now 2 additional targets. This will also mean it will most likely will be the default choice for multitarget fights.

The above things and the removal of PoM pyro will dismiss (again by my opinion) the need to "build" huge ignite for combustion and i think those changes are exactly what Blizzard will try to fix with fire - the need to "build" ignite for Combustion. First is way too RNG dependent, second if RNG gods bless you with they favor you will rock the meters, and if they dont - you will hit the bottom and this is very very frustrating feeling.

Blizzard stance was that PoM and Alter Time combo was not the intention how to play fire and they said they will change this gameplay whether we like it or not and thats why they will ignore every tweet/question/etc about saving this kind of gameplay. A wild guess is that they are still messing with fire and Combustion, but only the time and the beta testing will show how will the fire spec enter WoD

By "on demand" I mean - that when I'm playing frost and I hit Icy Veins, I know that I'll immediately have a direct DPS increase. Same with Arcane Power or Vendetta or most other DPS CD's in the game. Something needs to be bursted down and (if I'm using my CD's correctly in the fight) I have burst available when I want it. Fire already is a bit weak in this area, since combustions have to be built over a few GCD's, but at least I can build them if required. Without having any ability to "build" ignites for Combustion, fire in WoD will basically have to pray for a few Pyro! crits in a row at exactly the right time ... or you have no CD to use at all.

If they are making combustion more a part of the regular rotation and not a true CD (which is what you're describing and what I feel they should do with it) ... then fire has no CD at all, making it the only DPS spec in the game without a true DPS CD.

[Deleted]

If they are making combustion more a part of the regular rotation and not a true CD (which is what you're describing and what I feel they should do with it) ... then fire has no CD at all, making it the only DPS spec in the game without a true DPS CD.

I dont know. Here is my understanding about mage DPS CDs - from my PoV Arcane Power and Icy Veins are part of the regular rotaiton. A little exception are the fights that might requer you to burst down something. Then you save the said CDs to use it for that moment.
Now here is the diffrence between arcane and frost CDs and fire CD.
So frost and arcane CDs you just press them and forget about them. They are somewhat flat damage increase for their duration. They don't require preparation nor specific conditions. You just hit the keybind and you start instantly to do more damage for the next 15-20-30 seconds, than you do regularly and that it is. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Fire CD - well now here is the fuck up. You try to "Build" up huge ignite via 2 gimmics - PoM and Alter time. This take time depending on the RNG favor - 5-10 seconds if i remmeber right. And what if you don't have RNG favor?!?

Do you see what is the diffrence. And how is extra DoT, with the power of the ignite no matter how strong, on the target for the next 25 seconds, is not a CD at all?!? Can someone explain me?

[Seneca]

Why does blizzard INSIST on adding stupid bullshit like Improved Frost Nova? I'm a frost mage player myself who plays PvP, all this change will do is overcomplicate shit and make frost mage ridiculously unfairly OP. Seriously, being able to blink twice in a row? Being able to break stuns twice in a row?

I'm sorry, but this is seriously retarded for both the mage and melee. If anything they should change gap closers and nerf/remove some of the abilities of melee who have too much uptime (enha shamans, warriors, rogues and to a lesser extend ww monks).

Edit: Just wanted to add that I know frost mages will be casting nonstop in WoD, but it's still rather a rather stupid thing to add. Being able to offensively blink CS in, frost nova and blink out is pretty stupid..

I don't get how blizzard can even remotely think this is a balanced perk. On one hand, we have arcane mages, fire mages, elemental shamans, with a very low mobility (you can cast scorch while moving but the damage will be very low, so the trade off will be huge, source: celestalon's twitter) who have to sit and spam hardcasted spell if they want to do meaningful damage and, on the other one, we have frost mages with 3 FoF stacks, plus 2 blink (plus 2 stun/root removal) on the top of lots of cc plus a possible blazing speed to make the mobility aspect flawless.

Lots of frost mages are asking for this perk to be removed because they think it is too op and frost does not deserve it (and this says a lot, it is more unique than rare that someone doesn't want his spec to be buffed), still, blizzard is fine, and you can also check the contradictory and illogical reasons that our "MVP" is giving to justify this perk, in order to make frost, the spec he is completely biased toward, overpowered as hell. Source: https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...07192666234881

Long answer - Blizzard devs are lazy enough to just put that shit, that was discusses so hard few pages ago, instead of put their brains to work and come out with something not so stupidly OP as that... I mean come on... every mage in the world see how this will break Frost PvP to a point where it might become too OP to be able to counter. How doesn't Blizz devs not seeing it?!?

Exactly. I don't get if they know that frost will be even more op than it is on live but don't care for some odd reason, or if they have really no clue.

Because they don't operate in hyperbole, extremes, and conjecture? Taking a wild stab in the dark here, but I'm sure we have NO clue how OP anything will be from just reading tooltips. So, how about we stop acting like development gods and realize we're people who have no idea what's going to happen at level 100 PvP?

No-rethorical question: How can we have no clue if we have the alpha patch notes? We are not complaing about a tooltip without any context. We know everything of every class that is currently being tested in the alpha. Hell, we have the coefficients too. What they are testing right now is not a mistery for us. We are not discussing about frost in general. We know this (for example): elemental shamans lost their mobility (no more lightning bolt while moving), have no reliable way to keep melee at distance apart from frost shock, (that frost mages can apply in several ways while doing a lot of damage too), and don't have lots of ccs in general. Then we have frost mages, with 3 FoF stacks, plus 2 blink (plus 2 stun/root removal) on the top of lots of hard ccs (root/stun) plus a possible blazing speed. How can melee being balanced? Keeping frost in mind? Or ignoring it? The result will be horrible in both cases.

What I mean is that, in a world where frost mages were the only caster spec, they could sound balanced. In a world where we have fire and arcane specs too, plagued by lots of weakness, frost cannot have such an arsenal. Plus, even if we don't consider the casters vs melees war, the fact that frost is better in (almost) every aspect, makes them better even if we want to compare casters vs casters fights.

I'm glad there's someone that sees how ridiculous most of these posts are. It's mindboggling to me that people actually think they know more about how to design this game than Blizzard, especially at this stage when things are far from complete and we have little to no context.

Noone is saying to be able to design this game better than blizzard. Some of us are saying that frost's double blink is stupid. We have no context? What about the alpha notes of every class? We have the coefficients too if it was not enough.

We had no context about MoP L90 talents too, everyone was wrong and had to shut up. Jk, they were horrible and every mages who complained was right.

Moreover, this topic should be the place where to discuss about WoD changes. If all of us have no clue, have no idea, have no context, then this thread can also be closed too and be opened again when WoD is alive, so we have the clues. (Even if it will be illogical for obvious reasons).

Lots of us are exposing their concerns in a respectful and polite way. Why do this irritate you so much? If you (in general, not the ones I've quoted, just to be clear) have something to add, then do it, of course in a respectful and polite way, I mean, this is the place where to discuss about WoD and so we should do. If you have nothing to add, but you just want to make fun of someone and show how close minded they are, then, why are you posting in the first place? I mean, you can, but is it worth the effort?

Edit: about Combustion, Celestalon said they are going to buff it. "Planning to buff Combustion." Source: Celestalon's Twitter.

[Frost1129]

No mage had ever had "on demand" dps CDs. Those kind of dps cds are atleast with 1 minute coodown


By my oppinion Combustion will be way better than it is now.
First the perk - 20% increased duration
Second - Kindling reduce the cooldown of Combustion by 1 second every time you crit with your spells. Yes i know its a talent and trying to fix a spec/class with tallent is wrong design but you have to admit that so far that talent will be way too OP compared to the other two choices.
P.S. this is your control of "building" it. However so far from the notes it seems that they what us to forget that "building", but rather directing us to use Combustion more often
Third - if we add to the fry improved inferno blast that will mean that you can spread Combustion to 4 additional targets(5 total targets affected by it), than what its now 2 additional targets. This will also mean it will most likely will be the default choice for multitarget fights.

The above things and the removal of PoM pyro will dismiss (again by my opinion) the need to "build" huge ignite for combustion and i think those changes are exactly what Blizzard will try to fix with fire - the need to "build" ignite for Combustion. First is way too RNG dependent, second if RNG gods bless you with they favor you will rock the meters, and if they dont - you will hit the bottom and this is very very frustrating feeling.

Blizzard stance was that PoM and Alter Time combo was not the intention how to play fire and they said they will change this gameplay whether we like it or not and thats why they will ignore every tweet/question/etc about saving this kind of gameplay. A wild guess is that they are still messing with fire and Combustion, but only the time and the beta testing will show how will the fire spec enter WoD

Where comes Fire burst then? When does Fire get the chance to do something beyond mindless fireball spam and hitting pyro! ? if combustion is just hit on CD, it's boring. Core fire play is also boring. When does Fire become fun to play?


Also: potential triple blink on Frost mages. Is this real? A class with the most instants / CC / mobility now just got three blinks? What the fuck.

[zomgDPS]

Focusing Crystal + Mirror Images can serve as good dps cooldowns for Fire

I keep finding it curious why Mages think that it is ok for Fire and Arcane to have to turn to talents in order to plug massive holes in the core spec design, whereas such a deal is unacceptable for Frost, which is fully self contained and has complete freedom of choice as far as talents is concerned. This repeated disconnect with mages themselves is starting to get quite jarring.

Will it be OP? Who knows. I sure don't

This is absurd.

Frost has a enourmous lead over the other two specs in PvP. This is not a point of debate, it is a fact. If you cannot see how giving Frost a cold snap for blink on a short CD is in anyway going to do anything other than widen that gap further, then you might have been out of the game for longer than you think Swizzbots.

The change is obscene. What is worse, is that so much power is baked into a perk. The same perks which for Arcane and Fire are basically nothing more than damage bonuses and boring buffs.

This entire aspect of Blizz being completely oblivious to things purely because the massive Frost mage lobby is on a frenzy on the forums attempting to 'get moar buffs' at the expense of even a modicum of reason or logic, is pretty much sealing the deal for not only myself, but a vast majority of long time players that I know personally.

Blizz's sheer laziness and incompetence is yet another thing adding to the "why do we even bother" part of this process.


That said, another set of depressing patch notes (Build 18156):

Mage
Enhanced Fireball was renamed Enhanced Pyrotechnics and now also works with Frostfire Bolt.
Frost Bomb now has a limit of 1.
Improved Frost Nova was reworked - After casting Frost Nova, the cooldown of Blink is reset

Talents
Frost Bomb now has a limit of 1.
Unstable Magic no longer lists a 45 sec cooldown.

Fire
Flamestrike had some rewording.

It seems Blizz is set on giving Frost mages a short duration Blink reset, as a friggen perk no less.

What I find extremely curious, is that from the entirety of the Patch notes, the MVP only brough up two issues. One was the fact that he wanted Frost nova to reset Blink's CD, and the other, was removing the 45 second cooldown to Unstable Magic; and (surprise surprise) those are the only two real changes mages got this patch cycle.
Is this not getting absurd for anyone else?


That said, the sad part is that it seems like the numbers pass has begun wholesale. This means that design changes are somewhat locked in from this point on. This does not mean designs cannot change, but this does mean that it is somewhat too late for any real meaningful changes.

To that effect, I do not think further speculation will serve any purpose. It is clear (at least to me) that Blizz is completely set in their ways. They will only listen to specific members of the community (the MVP in this case) and will pretty much outright ignore any kind of argument, whether it be made rationally with facts and logic, or whether not.


Meh.. I think I am also quickly arriving at the point where I am ceasing to care.
With the new Civ coming out in Fall, and Blizz basically showing a complete lack of any kind of ethic towards the game, I do not think their current model is sustainable, or even, conducive to fostering a community where reason instead of politics is heeded.
I do not speak for all, but I can safely say that for some (myself included) WoD beta is basically quickly turning into MoP beta 2.0.

The sheer number of inconsistencies in design (with Frost being the only spec receiving any real kind of thought), glaring holes that are being ignored (Fire and Frost need to pick talents to get baseline functionality, while Frost does not), and actual Blizz dev support for making Frost even stronger at PvP, hence increasing the gap between it and the other specs. With no change to these policies in sight, I really do think this entire topic, thread, and discussion is superfluous.

We are all just totally wasting our breaths here it seems. A sad truth to Blizzard's community.


As a side point, it was interesting to see the announcement panel for the new Civ game (Civ BE). It was refreshing to see a group of developers who choose to lead with logic rather than try to 'phone it in' or try to 'cater to the masses'. It was good to see a AAA developer not just keep giving out continuous 'fuck yous' to their own community.
It was refreshing to see a AAA game developer who isn't so wholly up their own ass, allowing them to actually produce games of stellar quality.

I guess on some level, I was holding out the hope that Blizz was one of those type of devs. But meh.. this entire thing is just a farce now.