[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[Qck]

Ugh. Why can't PC just turn our target into the "crystal" instead? Not sure what the general consensus on the spell is, but I hate it more than I hated Rune/Invocation during MoP beta in it's current form. Who comes up with this bile these days?

Happy to see Fire buffs, though. Mainly because I'm not loving Frost Bomb, having to cast it before using FoF Lances makes me sad. I don't mind LB/NT, but if Frost is the go to spec, I hope the other talents(Comet Storm/Meteor/AO and UM/the Nova modifiers) are competitive so I don't have to use that tripe.

[Polarthief]

Ugh. Why can't PC just turn our target into the "crystal" instead? Not sure what the general consensus on the spell is, but I hate it more than I hated Rune/Invocation during MoP beta in it's current form. Who comes up with this bile these days?

Because that would make sense. When it comes to Mages as of late, Blizzard seems to lose said sense.

Mainly because I'm not loving Frost Bomb, having to cast it before using FoF Lances makes me sad. I don't mind LB/NT, but if Frost is the go to spec, I hope the other talents(Comet Storm/Meteor/AO and UM/the Nova modifiers) are competitive so I don't have to use that tripe.

IN will probably get a bit more competitive. Despite Frost Bomb hitting hard, it's RNG and inconsistent while IN still hits pretty hard and it's always consistent. Every 25s, you get a charge of it and you can save it for 4-5 stacks of IF, too.

Comet Storm and the left L100 talent, idk why the fuck they're taking their sweet ass time tuning. If they think CS is actually fine, then they're not even testing their own shit. It's the worst of all the L100 talents by a good margin because it splits damage, and if that wasn't bad enough, it has literally 0 synergy with Frost while Meteor causes Ignite, AO gives charges (and hits decently and has NO DAMAGE CAP due to not being considered a vanilla AoE), don't get me started on PC, and the left talents aren't THAT bad, they're just undertuned, but still way better than Comet Storm is.
PS: If Meteor didn't get Ignite, it'd still be better than CS, but still kinda shitty.

[voltaa]

How is frost bomb RNG or inconsistent? It's only as RNG as your procs which aren't an issue. Unless there is some heavy nerfing to bomb it will always be the best choice. It also double dips with PC, with splitting ice hitting both targets, frost bomb hitting both targets, it's the obvious and really only choice for frost, it interacts too well with orb generating charges for your to attack PC.

[Polarthief]

How is frost bomb RNG or inconsistent? It's only as RNG as your procs which aren't an issue. Unless there is some heavy nerfing to bomb it will always be the best choice. It also double dips with PC, with splitting ice hitting both targets, frost bomb hitting both targets, it's the obvious and really only choice for frost, it interacts too well with orb generating charges for your to attack PC.

I never said it's not good and doesn't make up for being a bit RNG or inconsistent. I was just saying "it's not always going to do damage" because it requires an Ice Lance to even do anything.

I also wish they would stop making talents like that that pretty much force you to use them because they're better, but thankfully, I'm not doing Mythics, and if people tell me to "use it because it's better", I'll tell them I'll just stop raiding with them when I'm carrying half the team. Hardcore mindset without a commitment ftw.

[Qck]

Because that would make sense. When it comes to Mages as of late, Blizzard seems to lose said sense.

Yea, I have some ideas of who that can be attributed to, but I won't go into that. Just sad that we're getting lumped with so many terrible feeling spells lately. Many specs seem to have lost a bit of *flow* they had in MoP, either to do add some complexity through more skills.. or in the case of arms warrior having basically no skills to press. Funnily enough Gladiator Warrior is my favorite out of what I've played so far in terms of feel.

IN will probably get a bit more competitive. Despite Frost Bomb hitting hard, it's RNG and inconsistent while IN still hits pretty hard and it's always consistent. Every 25s, you get a charge of it and you can save it for 4-5 stacks of IF, too.

I've actually been using Ice Nova mainly, it doesn't seem quite as strong, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make purely because throwing down PC, then casting a Frost Bomb before I can even start doing damage feels horrible to me

Comet Storm and the left L100 talent, idk why the fuck they're taking their sweet ass time tuning. If they think CS is actually fine, then they're not even testing their own shit. It's the worst of all the L100 talents by a good margin because it splits damage, and if that wasn't bad enough, it has literally 0 synergy with Frost while Meteor causes Ignite, AO gives charges (and hits decently and has NO DAMAGE CAP due to not being considered a vanilla AoE), don't get me started on PC, and the left talents aren't THAT bad, they're just undertuned, but still way better than Comet Storm is.
PS: If Meteor didn't get Ignite, it'd still be better than CS, but still kinda shitty.

I won't be at all surprised if Prismatic stays significantly stronger than both because it's "harder" to use optimally. Lets face it, your avarage Mage re-roll will probably get more mileage out of the other talents so we'll be stuck plonking an immobile crystal on the ground to turret damage into. Fun.

And yes, Comet Storm is absolute junk.. which is a pity, because it's my second favorite L100 behind Arcane Orb.

[Polarthief]

Yea, I have some ideas of who that can be attributed to, but I won't go into that. Just sad that we're getting lumped with so many terrible feeling spells lately. Many specs seem to have lost a bit of *flow* they had in MoP, either to do add some complexity through more skills.. or in the case of arms warrior having basically no skills to press. Funnily enough Gladiator Warrior is my favorite out of what I've played so far in terms of feel.

On top of that, it baffles me that they buff FFB's base damage and nerf Brain Freeze when all they have to do is buff the FIRE ONLY GLYPH for FFB to match Fireball's damage. Common sense not found.

I've actually been using Ice Nova mainly, it doesn't seem quite as strong, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make purely because throwing down PC, then casting a Frost Bomb before I can even start doing damage feels horrible to me

Plus FB isn't fun when you don't have procs.

I won't be at all surprised if Prismatic stays significantly stronger than both because it's "harder" to use optimally. Lets face it, your avarage Mage re-roll will probably get more mileage out of the other talents so we'll be stuck plonking an immobile crystal on the ground to turret damage into. Fun.

The problem is this is BAD design because it just forces people who care about DPS to use unfun/"skilled" talents and not-as-skilled players will just stick to the passives/unskilled talents. That's not choice, it's "pick what skill level you are". Seriously, all 3 important tiers (L75, L90, and L100) have that (Fire's L75 is a bit less so though). MoP "choice" was more about choice outside of bombs and what spec you were for L90, now it's just "pick based on your skill level" because they couldn't be bothered to make the SPECS about skill and the TALENTS about fun.

I also want to go on the record and saying that having talents (in this new MoP-era of talent philosophy) actually meld your spec is a really shitty feeling. The spec should be melded without talents, then talents should be adding fun, additional, choices. Arcane Orb, while I love it, and Prismatic Crystal, while I hate it, shouldn't be talents because of how "core" they are, so they should either be scrapped or made baseline. You just don't fill gaps in the spec with talents, especially when not all the gaps are filled with every talent (e.g., the left L100 talent choice does literally nothing to your toolkit, it just MIGHT extend your DPS cooldown a bit longer [or in Fire's case, make it come sooner]), and that's not fun.

[Qck]

I wouldn't mind so much if each row was either passives or actives, but having actives and passive on the same row for level 75, 90 and 100 leads to a big discrepancy in the amount of buttons you push in a rotation. I prefer the MoP style of choosing talents based on encounter(which didn't quite work out) to choosing based on how much of a shit you give about DPS. Sure, you'll still change a bit based on encounter when everything is tuned properly but it seems more of a lazy vs committed thing right now.

With all that said, if PC was target based instead of what it is, and Rune was anything else, I would be happy enough. That probably won't happen at this point though, so I just hope for decent tuning so I can play Fire or Arcane with UM, MI/IF and AO/Meteor and be competitive.

[Polarthief]

With all that said, if PC was target based instead of what it is, and Rune was anything else, I would be happy enough. That probably won't happen at this point though, so I just hope for decent tuning so I can play Fire or Arcane with UM, MI/IF and AO/Meteor and be competitive.

My thoughts exactly, though UM won't see much good use; might find it decent with Arcane, but it's unplayable with Fire due to FB/FFB being so little of your DPS. AO/Meteor can be competitive. Honestly, outside of LB/PC ridiculousness, I don't see how else Fire can get a decent PC off, especially with how pathetically small Combustion is right now; it's like you want to use everything ahead of time and just save Blast Wave for Crystal, pumping your Pyroblasts into a Combustion on a target then spreading it ONTO the crystal. As for me, I'm gonna probably play Arcane as my main and Frost as my sub (Since they use similar gear), and run NT or SN (wish NT wouldn't have charge requirements to maximize...), MI or IF (and ignoring IF), and AO. For Fire, pretty much the exact same setup. LB isn't as annoying to use as NT, and Meteor sets up some nice Combustions.

In all honesty, for Fire and Arcane, I actually do have trouble picking between Bomb and Nova talents (especially Fire because LB has no bullshit tied to it), and I really do like that. That's the kind of choice I'd like to see more of.

[LocNess]

Just saw tier pieces. Kinda of gross how spread out stats are, specially without reforging, but oh well early tier and usually is like this. Hopefully all specs benefit well enough, at least our set bonuses have been pretty damn good.

[Frost1129]

Clunky is when you have too many buttons to press (especially cooldowns), the gameplay is redundant, or overall, it just feels weird (not bad/good, just weird). In this case, it's the first answer.

- Frostbolt
- Ice Lance (up to x2)
- Frostfire Bolt (up to x2)
*- Freeze/Water Jet (and WJ is very clunky, especially when it has a cast time AND only counts when Frostbolts hit, not when cast)
*- Frozen Orb
**- Frost Bomb (requires timing) or Ice Nova (up to x2) (or UM as a passive, if, y'know, you're bad)
**- L90 talent (or gaming IF which is still another thing you have to constantly watch and pay attention to)
*- Prismatic Crystal (or TV/CS if, again, you're a bad; CS is also a cooldown anyways)
*- Icy Veins

Bolded = Added with WoD (FBomb counted due to being completely different)
* = Has a cooldown
** = At least one of the potential choices has a cooldown

Fire wasn't really buffed - it had a bug before that was inflating it's damage, this probably just compensates for that bug now being fixed.

And I think the word you are looking for is "busy", not "clunky". Arms warriors heroic leaping out of melee range and then charging back into combat for a DPS gain is clunky; but having to manage CDs is not.

Also, you're listing every active talent in your breakdown and then saying the rotation is too busy. I find this a bit ironic, since that's the entire point of opting into actives.

Is everything new "clunky" to you? If that's the case you may want to withhold opinions until you actually sit down and play with the new stuff for a bit.

[Polarthief]

Also, you're listing every active talent in your breakdown and then saying the rotation is too busy. I find this a bit ironic, since that's the entire point of opting into actives.

Yes, I'll go ahead and pick UM and the left L100 talent that instantly gimps my DPS significantly. I like choice but not when the other option is to royally fuck myself.

Is everything new "clunky" to you?

Not at all. I like the Nova talent, I like new NT (minus the 4-charge mechanic), I like Meteor, AO, and even CS (would like it more if it didn't suck). I like the idea of the left L100 talent, as well as IF, but the left L100 talent was implemented poorly and IF isn't as fun as I'd hoped it would be.

If that's the case you may want to withhold opinions until you actually sit down and play with the new stuff for a bit.

I'm on the beta and playing it. I'm not even doing raiding, so I can only imagine how much less I'll enjoy it in a raid setting. If I can't enjoy this stuff out in the world, I know I'll enjoy it even less in a raid. Rune of Power being the one true exception (since you stand still a lot more in some raids than you do in dungeons/world), but I still hate the thing anyways, so that exception is null in my specific case.

[Frost1129]

Are you seriously using first tuning pass (which is only ST) balance as an argument for why you cannot chose the left lvl 100 talent and UM, or why CS/meteor are uncompetitive? Celey has made it clear they want the talents balanced. If you believe it will happen or not is another issue, but to see people judging things like class/talent design around current tuning (or, better put, lack there of) is nothing but embarrassing to see happening.

In the end, if celey and his team does their jobs well enough, you'll have your pick of talents. There may be one or two combos that perform a few % higher, but the only players who will need to care enough about that small gap don't care about being a bit more busy.

[Polarthief]

Are you seriously using first tuning pass (which is only ST) balance as an argument for why you cannot chose the left lvl 100 talent and UM, or why CS/meteor are uncompetitive? In the end, if celey and his team does their jobs well enough, you'll have your pick of talents.

No, I am not. My problem is I do not trust them to appropriately balance them and will instead opt to balance them based on skill instead. Also, for an ENTIRE expansion of having MoP L90 talents, it's kinda hard to believe that they'll be capable of actually balancing passive/"unskillful" talents with active/"skillful" ones.

Can they? Of course. Humans are capable of a lot of things. I'm just skeptical to believe UM or the left L100 talent will be much of anything, especially when the mechanic tuning phase is over. It's all about numbers now, and I don't know how they can buff the left L100 talent with just numbers without making it OP, and CS, well, I'm not sure what they plan to do with that either.

[Frost1129]

No, I am not. My problem is I do not trust them to appropriately balance them and will instead opt to balance them based on skill instead. Also, for an ENTIRE expansion of having MoP L90 talents, it's kinda hard to believe that they'll be capable of actually balancing passive/"unskillful" talents with active/"skillful" ones.

Can they? Of course. Humans are capable of a lot of things. I'm just skeptical to believe UM or the left L100 talent will be much of anything, especially when the mechanic tuning phase is over. It's all about numbers now, and I don't know how they can buff the left L100 talent with just numbers without making it OP, and CS, well, I'm not sure what they plan to do with that either.

Then your problem has nothing to do with the talents, the class, spec, or design. It's entirely with celestalon and his team and your faith in them being able to balance these talents, maybe you should complain about that instead.

If you had constructive feedback on these things, it wouldn't be so focused around buzzwords like "clunky", reliant upon the current state of balance, and just calling things bad without any attempt to assess why it's bad and where improvements can be made.

[Polarthief]

Then your problem has nothing to do with the talents, the class, spec, or design. It's entirely with celestalon and his team and your faith in them being able to balance these talents, maybe you should complain about that instead.

*Shrug* Doomsayer's gonna doom I guess. *Goes back to being a Hearthstone card*

Seriously though, the complaints are with both. I'm saying, at this moment in time, there's mechanical issues as well that they won't fix due to being out of the mechanics phase. Fire itself it still awkward, and I'd like to know how they plan to balance passives with actives, again, without changing their core mechanics.

[Avikur]

Regarding professions in wod, I realise there will be no DPS benefit but which 2 will give the best survivability perks? Like do Alchemists still get more healing from potions or do herbalists still get a self heal?

[Imnick]

Alchemy still gets its tier 1 philosopher's stone trinket which will increase potion effectiveness until you replace it with a better one. They also still get rejuvenation potions which restore both health and mana as if you drank a health potion and a mana potion... I can't actually find the Draenor Health Potion on WoWhead right now though. Flasks also seem to be a pain in the ass to make this time around.

There's been no mention of removing Lifeblood from Herbalism, so it's possible they just cut the haste off it.

For engineering, Rocket boots become drastically less useful in WoD because not only does the speed increase go down, I am pretty sure it also shares the health potion cooldown. So you have to choose between 40% runspeed once per fight or healing once per fight :U
However you are able to craft an item which makes you immune to Misdirection and Leap of Faith, which could drastically increase your survivability depending on the temperament of your raid team This isn't actually BoP or exclusive to engineers though.

Mostly though, seems like professions aren't going to affect much apart from what you can craft now.

[Qck]

If you had constructive feedback on these things, it wouldn't be so focused around buzzwords like "clunky", reliant upon the current state of balance, and just calling things bad without any attempt to assess why it's bad and where improvements can be made.

It's pretty easy, really. I don't think that ground targeted stuff should be part of a single target rotation. They removed Water Ele freeze giving FoF against bosses for this very reason... here we are a couple of years later with Meteor and Prismatic Crystal. Yet Freeze doesn't give FoF, and they added Water Jet.

Frost Bomb is not so bad on it's own, but when coupled with PC becomes extremely awkward to me. Cast PC, apply Frost Bomb, Orb and spam procs at it... It's a couple of seconds before you even start doing damage. Add to this the fact that it doesn't auto target last target after it dies means I have to re-select the boss/mob and it just makes for a real mess, IMO.

Even if the talents that PC competes with are balanced against it, that doesn't exclude the spell from feedback. I think it's a mess personally, and will be nothing but trouble going forward.

I agree we shouldn't fully judge Comet Storm, UM, or the first set of L100 talents until we're live but at the same time if no one says anything about it we actually will end up playing Frost Bomb/PC when it comes to raiding if we want to be competitive. I personally don't want that.

[nickseng]

It's pretty easy, really. I don't think that ground targeted stuff should be part of a single target rotation. They removed Water Ele freeze giving FoF against bosses for this very reason... here we are a couple of years later with Meteor and Prismatic Crystal. Yet Freeze doesn't give FoF, and they added Water Jet.

Me and Polar had a "discussion" about this way back when, but I don't think that that was the reason why they removed the FoF functionality from Freeze. Unfortunately, neither of us could find the reference for this.

[Polarthief]

Regarding professions in wod, I realise there will be no DPS benefit but which 2 will give the best survivability perks? Like do Alchemists still get more healing from potions or do herbalists still get a self heal?

I'm not exactly sure, but I don't believe they will. This might make Engineering a bit too attractive though.

- - - Updated - - -

For engineering, Rocket boots become drastically less useful in WoD because not only does the speed increase go down, I am pretty sure it also shares the health potion cooldown. So you have to choose between 40% runspeed once per fight or healing once per fight :U
However you are able to craft an item which makes you immune to Misdirection and Leap of Faith, which could drastically increase your survivability depending on the temperament of your raid team This isn't actually BoP or exclusive to engineers though.

Really? This makes me quite unhappy.