[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[Polarthief]

Polar, they have bigger fish to fry You can see from last 3-4 sets of patches, they got nada for Mages... All those things they can wait until the 1st or 2nd hot fix patch after WoD releases

I could say something about our glyphs being crap, cookie cutter, and Evanesce still not triggering Regenerative Ice, but I guess I'm not allowed to complain about problems I see for our class :\

"Bigger fish to fry" is not an excuse to delay problems with a class until launch in the same way claiming "beta is beta and they will fix it" is a good way to tell people to calm down.

Spoiler alert: Either or leads to things not getting fixed and leads to MoP L90 talents for an entire expansion.

[Orrin]

I could say something about our glyphs being crap, cookie cutter, and Evanesce still not triggering Regenerative Ice, but I guess I'm not allowed to complain about problems I see for our class :\

"Bigger fish to fry" is not an excuse to delay problems with a class until launch in the same way claiming "beta is beta and they will fix it" is a good way to tell people to calm down.

Spoiler alert: Either or leads to things not getting fixed and leads to MoP L90 talents for an entire expansion.

Well in Fury Warrior post Celestalon wrote that they planned to remove Colossus Smash in subsquentpatch although devs thought that it wasn't doing Fury rotation any good. Considering that this is a thing Warriors wrote about since CS introduction, we may only guess what kinds of things developers think and what kind of epiphanies with delayed implementation plans they have.

[Frost1129]

Was the nerf of cleaving on/off the crystal that bad for Frost?



If Novas and CS are brought up, and Bomb brought down, I will be happy. I really like IN/SN over FB/NT, though for Fire, I'll pick LB (when I actually go Fire, which will be unlikely).

Think about the spells you want to cast on PC, and what that does to icicles (especially with 2pc). Yes, splitting ice was very strong for Frost.

[Halanad]

To be fair, I was expecting the removal of Colossus Smash since the beta began purely because it is a resurrected clone of old Deep Freeze. Considering new Deep Freeze is now worthless to the point of not even deserving a spot on my bar it wasn't farfetched to see the warrior's imitation take a dive as well.

[Orrin]

To be fair, I was expecting the removal of Colossus Smash since the beta began purely because it is a resurrected clone of old Deep Freeze. Considering new Deep Freeze is now worthless to the point of not even deserving a spot on my bar it wasn't farfetched to see the warrior's imitation take a dive as well.

Deep Freeze has nothing to do with it, it's about feeling of the spec, read thir post. Fury was too repetitive and predictable as opposed to being about random violent things. Also Arms still has it.
Still have secret hope hat devs have some plan for Mages.

[Deleted]

So what's the deal with frost?
Get two FOF stacks, use frost bomb on target fire ice lances, and pray for some more FOF procs?

And every 1 minute you use frost bomb then frozen orb and use ice lance every time you get a proc?

Is that about it?

[Deleted]

Blizz finally added a burning ground animation to Meteor and I think Flamestrike was also updated.

Meteor:


Flamestrike: (I think the pulsating center is new^^)

[voltaa]

Expected+needed, however.

Last sims I saw with set bonuses, Frost was over 40.5k.

Still expecting mana tuning for Arc to make Evocation definitely worth it, and Comet Storm brought up a bit. I'd really like the Novas to reduce CD via haste, but that's unlikely.

Don't know if you've seen the most recent numbers but even with the nerf frost is still miles ahead, the PC nerf hardly had much of an effect, the real problem is that set bonus and how unbelievably strong it is with frost bomb.

[Frost1129]

Don't know if you've seen the most recent numbers but even with the nerf frost is still miles ahead, the PC nerf hardly had much of an effect, the real problem is that set bonus and how unbelievably strong it is with frost bomb.

They are totally insane - and what's more really don't require you to do anything. Arcane/Fire set bonuses actually require you do react and do something with them - Fire in particular, the bonuses can actually be wasted. You literally do the same thing as normal with Frost, and get this gigantic FO-IL spam damage bonus period - which then gives you a period of >=30%haste/dmg boosted frostbolts.

Almost certainly going to need to be either changed or tuned down quite a bit.

[GwiGwi]

With the nerf to PC back to 30% for frost, and not being able to cleave off the PC. Isn't it a DPS loss to even use PC on fights with more than 1 target?

Assuming glyph of splitting ice.
Assuming each ice lace with 2P hits for 10k average.
Assuming you're using PC with FO together

Without PC: 10k + 5k = 15k
With PC: 10k + 3k = 13k

This is a difference of 13%

Let's also assume Frost Bomb / UM does an average of 5k per IL.

Without PC: 10k + 5k + 5k = 20k
With PC: 10k + 3k + 6.5k = 19.5k


Of course this is all just napkin math, but considering the fact that without using PC I can put FB on the target before FO. Which gives me another global / 1 more IL during FO, PC doesn't look viable for cleave?

Or I'm I just completely wrong here?

[Polarthief]

So FB+PC combo is still on top by a large margin; just barely under a 10% increase. The first talent choice that uses neither FB nor PC is even worse; it's like a 17%* DPS loss. Not to mention every combo is still better than Fire or Arcane IIRC.

* Number is not 100% and I just woke up from a nap.

[Dizzeeyooo]

With the nerf to PC back to 30% for frost, and not being able to cleave off the PC. Isn't it a DPS loss to even use PC on fights with more than 1 target?

Assuming glyph of splitting ice.
Assuming each ice lace with 2P hits for 10k average.
Assuming you're using PC with FO together

Without PC: 10k + 5k = 15k
With PC: 10k + 3k = 13k

This is a difference of 13%

Let's also assume Frost Bomb / UM does an average of 5k per IL.

Without PC: 10k + 5k + 5k = 20k
With PC: 10k + 3k + 6.5k = 19.5k


Of course this is all just napkin math, but considering the fact that without using PC I can put FB on the target before FO. Which gives me another global / 1 more IL during FO, PC doesn't look viable for cleave?

Or I'm I just completely wrong here?

presumably for fights like this, instead of using frozen orb together with prismatic crystal, you would use frozen orb first to build up 10 stacks of the frost 4set buff, and then use prismatic crystal as the frozen orb ends to buff the next 10 seconds of frostbolt spam by an extra 30%? depending on how much haste you have, this might not even waste any splitting ice icicle cleave damage, if you only have time for 5 or less frostbolts in the 10 seconds?

[GwiGwi]

If I had to do that I would just run Comet Storm, the only fun part of PC as frost is spamming IL into it.

[Polarthief]

If I had to do that I would just run Comet Storm, the only fun part of PC as frost is spamming IL into it.

The only fun part of PC (to me) is how it looks and how it pulses. I'm against PC almost as much as I am against MoP Rune (WoD Rune is so much better, but still an annoyance to me).

[Qck]

So FB+PC combo is still on top by a large margin; just barely under a 10% increase. The first talent choice that uses neither FB nor PC is even worse; it's like a 17%* DPS loss. Not to mention every combo is still better than Fire or Arcane IIRC.

* Number is not 100% and I just woke up from a nap.

Naw, if we take out PC/FB together the top Arcane combo is currently around on par. Arcane also doesn't have as steep of a curve between talent choices other than the L90 line where RoP is seemingly around 1k~ ahead of IF with MI another 500-600 behind.

Fire is another story.

[Polarthief]

Naw, if we take out PC/FB together the top Arcane combo is currently around on par. Arcane also doesn't have as steep of a curve between talent choices other than the L90 line where RoP is seemingly around 1k~ ahead of IF with MI another 500-600 behind.

Fire is another story.

My bad then on Arcane. Never found the numbers :X

Not liking that nearly forced NT/ROP though. Dropping RoP loses ~1k DPS, and even the worst combination of NT beats out the best combinations of SN/UM.

[Frost1129]

My bad then on Arcane. Never found the numbers :X

Not liking that nearly forced NT/ROP though. Dropping RoP loses ~1k DPS, and even the worst combination of NT beats out the best combinations of SN/UM.

You have a really bad habit of talking without the numbers >.>.

Stop listening to the echo chamber of people who don't know a damn thing! Start listening to data! It's only there to help, I promise. >.<

[Polarthief]

You have a really bad habit of talking without the numbers >.>.

Stop listening to the echo chamber of people who don't know a damn thing! Start listening to data! It's only there to help, I promise. >.<

I couldn't find the data! I assumed it wasn't posted yet! >_>

And I know I do. Y'dun have to point it out :<

Am I right to assume CS, TV, and Novas are still bad though? NT and FB have shown that they're better than Novas, PC still seems too good for Frost, and Fire... well, idk much about Fire, mostly because I stopped following it when I realized they stopped caring about its rotation.

[Frost1129]

With the nerf to PC back to 30% for frost, and not being able to cleave off the PC. Isn't it a DPS loss to even use PC on fights with more than 1 target?

Assuming glyph of splitting ice.
Assuming each ice lace with 2P hits for 10k average.
Assuming you're using PC with FO together

Without PC: 10k + 5k = 15k
With PC: 10k + 3k = 13k

This is a difference of 13%

Let's also assume Frost Bomb / UM does an average of 5k per IL.

Without PC: 10k + 5k + 5k = 20k
With PC: 10k + 3k + 6.5k = 19.5k


Of course this is all just napkin math, but considering the fact that without using PC I can put FB on the target before FO. Which gives me another global / 1 more IL during FO, PC doesn't look viable for cleave?

Or I'm I just completely wrong here?

Lazy comparison inc. Pulled some averages from a SimC run for the values I used.



Ice Lance does not proc UM, so I did not include it.

PC does not trigger the GCD, so it's not limiting you in potential ice lances - only travel time / instant-cast GCD are.

- - - Updated - - -

I couldn't find the data! I assumed it wasn't posted yet! >_>

And I know I do. Y'dun have to point it out :<

Am I right to assume CS, TV, and Novas are still bad though? NT and FB have shown that they're better than Novas, PC still seems too good for Frost, and Fire... well, idk much about Fire, mostly because I stopped following it when I realized they stopped caring about its rotation.

The WoD SimC APL threads over on altered-time.com are where most of the most recent results are posted Just don't shitpost/OT post in them, they tend to be more heavily moderated.

TV is pretty good, tier bonus just makes PC way too OP when combined with Fbomb for Frost. At the moment I don't think it's really a TV issue, more a "oh my god why such insane synergy between FO/PC/Fbomb/T17-2pc."

Novas are terrible, not bad .

Dunno about Fire. Set bonuses really are not that strong, they are fun though! >.>. Recent nerfs + PC cleave change really hurt it. APL for it needs to be re-done since the nerf - currently fielding ideas for PC optimization in a post retarded PC-cleave nerf (for Fire) world. ( We are 100% looking for ideas for Fire optimization that we've not tried yet. Hint hint nudge nudge )

[Polarthief]

The WoD SimC APL threads over on altered-time.com are where most of the most recent results are posted Just don't shitpost/OT post in them, they tend to be more heavily moderated.

TV is pretty good, tier bonus just makes PC way too OP when combined with Fbomb for Frost. At the moment I don't think it's really a TV issue, more a "oh my god why such insane synergy between FO/PC/Fbomb/T17-2pc."

Novas are terrible, not bad .

Dunno about Fire. Set bonuses really are not that strong, they are fun though! >.>. Recent nerfs + PC cleave change really hurt it. APL for it needs to be re-done since the nerf - currently fielding ideas for PC optimization in a post retarded PC-cleave nerf (for Fire) world. ( We are 100% looking for ideas for Fire optimization that we've not tried yet. Hint hint nudge nudge )

I typically don't post on AT at all, so no need to worry, haha.

I figured that, but if they aren't going to nerf PC, they have to buff TV/CS, no?

And I wish they weren't. How is a passive like UM better than Novas? So stupid.

Overall, I just wish it was more fun to play. I love the cleaving mechanic but otherwise, it's just meh. Also Combustion is a joke now.