6.0 Warrior changes discussion thread

[Eranthe]

"execute needs to be tuned much lower damage-wise"

mark my words and i have said this before,they will nerf the shit out of execute for that very reason.back in the day execute was super powerful then sudden deaths come along and gives arms a chance to use execute at any health range.what did thuis get warriors?a big fat execute nerf making it hit like a wet noodle.it stayed that way for almost 2 x-pacs if not longer.the devs said since execute can be used at any health level it needed to be weak,wtf.then they buff kill-shot and dks rets ect.this shit cycle will repeat its self over and over again.

as far as the new pvp set bonus-its a weaker/nerfed old school juggernaut,again nothing new here.after a charge warriors had 100% crit chance on MS.the devs "GC" said that was to powerful so they nerfed it to 50%.GC said that was to strong so they dropped it to 25%,before they removed it completely.now they add it back in and people think/talk about it like its new,lmfao.

all you ever do is flame and get seriously paranoid about pvp arms warriors. blizz is going to try (and i say try because it's an impossible task) to balance it as well as they can. they're going to try to make warriors just as viable as any other class. they might fail utterly but there's no secret society trying to get arms warriors nerfed into the ground.

warriors are always going to do x dps. execute will be y% of that damage, but it still adds up to x. if warriors are weak, they'll buff them, hopefully pretty quickly.

people tend to zone out if you just post an angry wall of text. if you want your posts to be taken seriously, take a little more time and make points that possibly contribute to warrior playstyle instead of just poking holes in anything anyone else does.

[Ssateneth]

I'd be happy if arms turned out to be completely useless in PVP. That means I can play it in PVE and not worry about damage being low or being suddenly nerfed because of people complaining about being globaled by an arms warrior.

[Lightup]

I'd be happy if arms turned out to be completely useless in PVP. That means I can play it in PVE and not worry about damage being low or being suddenly nerfed because of people complaining about being globaled by an arms warrior.

they will be viable in pvp and blizz won't do the same mistake they did with feral druid they listen to 1.5-1.9k pvpers feral druid was bad at high lvl pvp almost every player who know what he is doing used purge to purge predatory swiftness but still they got nerfed and became the shitest class in pvp

[Deleted]

all you ever do is flame and get seriously paranoid about pvp arms warriors.

I remember when that "brown guy" suddelny appeared on the early damage meters after we hit the 20% mark in classic and surpassed other raiders with every full swing. Meathead isn't wrong about that execute isn't the iconic ability it used to be, you simply can't execute anyone with a sole execute any longer at max level. My maximum hit in pvp is about 60k give or take while ranged executes like as shadowburn or killshot deal enough to kill you when you're able to use them. Of course we also have our strong dot ticking, autoattacks are into play and our mastery can help us out further more.. but honestly? All this combined isn't enough to make 15-20% hitpoints disappear.

And now look at the new tooltip for execute, after several expansions it's now weapon damage based, basically a totally different ability.

if warriors are weak, they'll buff them, hopefully pretty quickly.

Sorry but it's not that simple. Somebody complains about their class on twitter every other day to Blizzard, they're used to that. And some classes regulary remain (slightly) overpowered for a whole season because you just can't nerf ability x without buffing ability y or they fall of that other parts of the game. Take deathknights, they suck at pve dps wise for 9 month straight just because they'd gib you at ilvl 540-550 if you would increase their burst potenial (read: basically all abilities).

Arms warrior have similar scaling issues from being to strong at pvp at certain gear levels and not scaling well enough at the highest gear level to challenge other dps on singletarget. But who gives a f*ck? Nobody at Blizzard HQ, they can't buff us without giving the whole pvp community another "nerf warrior" thread (and there are already several around, funnily we do fine there due to all the buffs to our sustained damage).

[Deleted]

And now look at the new tooltip for execute, after several expansions it's now weapon damage based, basically a totally different ability.

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure more Warriors are happy that it's now % Weapon Damage rather than it being pure AP scaling. Why was it ever attack power over weapon damage? I've only been playing Warrior since mid-Cataclysm so I don't actually know the legit reasoning.

[Trubo]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure more Warriors are happy that it's now % Weapon Damage rather than it being pure AP scaling. Why was it ever attack power over weapon damage? I've only been playing Warrior since mid-Cataclysm so I don't actually know the legit reasoning.

My guess would be to make it useful even if you have a shitty weapon or Strength trinkets are up.

[Deleted]

still not happy with the bloodfirst crit chance change, think it need to be atleast 40%. Or 50% if they want to make fury smoothier to play at low ilvl

[Jeroun]

still not happy with the bloodfirst crit chance change, think it need to be atleast 40%. Or 50% if they want to make fury smoothier to play at low ilvl

Was I the only one who saw the 2 piece set bonus and new crit passive for fury? It seems like they are aware of the issues and are trying to find ways of smoothing our crit dependency while also making sure we have enough to be effective.

[Flaks]

It looks to me as though Blizzard is really REALLY pushing for Gladiator Stance to be great. Too great potentially. I know things don't quite look that way yet but I can see Blizzard overtuning the hell out of the spec to make it "viable".

[meathead]

all you ever do is flame and get seriously paranoid about pvp arms warriors. blizz is going to try (and i say try because it's an impossible task) to balance it as well as they can. they're going to try to make warriors just as viable as any other class. they might fail utterly but there's no secret society trying to get arms warriors nerfed into the ground.

warriors are always going to do x dps. execute will be y% of that damage, but it still adds up to x. if warriors are weak, they'll buff them, hopefully pretty quickly.

people tend to zone out if you just post an angry wall of text. if you want your posts to be taken seriously, take a little more time and make points that possibly contribute to warrior playstyle instead of just poking holes in anything anyone else does.

flame and paranoid over what and when?who am i flaming?i do not even play wow anymore but i still know what im taking about.prove to me where im wrong?show me/tell me what i said never happened,im waiting.when did you start playing wow,wrath?then you have no clue what im talking about.also so the fuck said anyhting about a secret society other them yourself?the only ones that do nerf arms is the devs.....


no warriors will not always do x damage-whens the last time arms was #1 dos in raids?there have been times when fury was shit in pve,but they did fix that somewhat fast.

you can zone out all you want-another poster already proved you wrong and myself right.

what i said was 100% correct and it all happened.maybe you think im wrong about the pvp sets,then why dont you ask if juggernaut gave us 100% then 50% then 25% then zero crit chance after a change.or do you really think this is something new?ask in this thread and any warrior that knows his shit will tell you what i already said.

i guess you never played when sudden death was put into the game right?

how on earth you try and talk shit to me when all i did was point out "for those that still play" wtf is going on and what will happen is beyond me.you made yourself look like a dumb ass.

[Jeroun]

flame and paranoid over what and when?who am i flaming?i do not even play wow anymore but i still know what im taking about.prove to me where im wrong?show me/tell me what i said never happened,im waiting.when did you start playing wow,wrath?then you have no clue what im talking about.also so the fuck said anyhting about a secret society other them yourself?the only ones that do nerf arms is the devs.....


no warriors will not always do x damage-whens the last time arms was #1 dos in raids?there have been times when fury was shit in pve,but they did fix that somewhat fast.

you can zone out all you want-another poster already proved you wrong and myself right.

what i said was 100% correct and it all happened.maybe you think im wrong about the pvp sets,then why dont you ask if juggernaut gave us 100% then 50% then 25% then zero crit chance after a change.or do you really think this is something new?ask in this thread and any warrior that knows his shit will tell you what i already said.

i guess you never played when sudden death was put into the game right?

how on earth you try and talk shit to me when all i did was point out "for those that still play" wtf is going on and what will happen is beyond me.you made yourself look like a dumb ass.

I think meathead is a good name for you

[Fatalfuror]

Was I the only one who saw the 2 piece set bonus and new crit passive for fury? It seems like they are aware of the issues and are trying to find ways of smoothing our crit dependency while also making sure we have enough to be effective.

The Attunement passives are lazy as all hell. All it does is exacerbate how good Crit is for Fury. There was already no real competition for it; now it's even more effective. And really, 5%? That's nothing. If you manage to piece together a meager 20% crit chance from gear by the first tier, that will give you a whopping - wait for it - 1% more crit. So best case scenario, at the end of the expansion with maybe 40% crit (and we might be lucky to even get that), you're looking at 2% more crit.

Seriously, I see these passives as a huge waste of time. It's time taken away from proper balance/design.

Moreover, no class should have to rely on set bonuses to achieve a consistent level of play conducive to having fun. Set bonuses should be just that - bonuses. Icing on a cake. Whipped topping on pie. Sugar on strawberries. It defeats the purpose of bonuses when they are completely and utterly mandatory, and when they merely shore up extensive weaknesses. But maybe I'm too old school for what people consider a "bonus" today.

[Archimtiros]

The Attunement passives are lazy as all hell. All it does is exacerbate how good Crit is for Fury. There was already no real competition for it; now it's even more effective. And really, 5%? That's nothing. If you manage to piece together a meager 20% crit chance from gear by the first tier, that will give you a whopping - wait for it - 1% more crit. So best case scenario, at the end of the expansion with maybe 40% crit (and we might be lucky to even get that), you're looking at 2% more crit.

Seriously, I see these passives as a huge waste of time. It's time taken away from proper balance/design.

Moreover, no class should have to rely on set bonuses to achieve a consistent level of play conducive to having fun. Set bonuses should be just that - bonuses. Icing on a cake. Whipped topping on pie. Sugar on strawberries. It defeats the purpose of bonuses when they are completely and utterly mandatory, and when they merely shore up extensive weaknesses. But maybe I'm too old school for what people consider a "bonus" today.

Already said a few times in the alpha forums that the set bonus is lazy design. It's exactly like the + damage "leveling perks" giving us something that needs to happen anyways and calling it a perk. It isn't a "bonus" when it is a requirement.

- - - Updated - - -

Badly written stuff.

You don't play anymore means nobody is going to give a damn for your opinion. Plain and simple.
Second, balance is always a tide that ebbs and flows. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this, so there is no point even talking about it until we actually see where final balance puts everyone and complain accordingly.

Lastly if you ever want to be taken seriously; take 2 minutes and format your post, because my eyes bleed when I try to read that blob. I suggest using the spacebar.

[Jeroun]

Already said a few times in the alpha forums that the set bonus is lazy design. It's exactly like the + damage "leveling perks" giving us something that needs to happen anyways and calling it a perk. It isn't a "bonus" when it is a requirement.

I dunno I guess that's subjective because IMO the set bonus is either more dps then getting better optimized off pieces or it's not. Unless it provides some sort I invaluable utility it all just works out to more damage. Just like this patch you could say the "boring" bonus everyone has and the "intetesting" one no one does because at the end of the day it's maximizing that drives choices not interest.

[Archimtiros]

I dunno I guess that's subjective because IMO the set bonus is either more dps then getting better optimized off pieces or it's not. Unless it provides some sort I invaluable utility it all just works out to more damage. Just like this patch you could say the "boring" bonus everyone has and the "intetesting" one no one does because at the end of the day it's maximizing that drives choices not interest.

But my point is the bonus completely enables the spec. Look at it like T16 2p for Arms. Fury can survive just fine without that extra rage on CS. Arms is damn near crippled without it for ST, and almost useless for AoE.

Likewise, without the T17 2p, the best you are going to get is maybe a 50% chance to Crit on Bloodthirst (30% base + 20%); that is less than we recommend for a player to swap from Arms to Fury now (I recommend ~30% crit = 60% for BT). An extra 10% on that is huge.

Crit reliance for Fury has gone down a lot, but my whole point is that the base crit chance on BT really should go up some more, and giving us a set bonus that is going to be more than mandatory is a lazy way of doing it. Just like the leveling perks that simply increase damage are incredibly lazy, because they aren't perks. Its balance that would have happened anyways if the perk system didn't exist.

[Jeroun]

But my point is the bonus completely enables the spec. Look at it like T16 2p for Arms. Fury can survive just fine without that extra rage on CS. Arms is damn near crippled without it for ST, and almost useless for AoE.

Likewise, without the T17 2p, the best you are going to get is maybe a 50% chance to Crit on Bloodthirst (30% base + 20%); that is less than we recommend for a player to swap from Arms to Fury now (I recommend ~30% crit = 60% for BT). An extra 10% on that is huge.

Crit reliance for Fury has gone down a lot, but my whole point is that the base crit chance on BT really should go up some more, and giving us a set bonus that is going to be more than mandatory is a lazy way of doing it. Just like the leveling perks that simply increase damage are incredibly lazy, because they aren't perks. Its balance that would have happened anyways if the perk system didn't exist.

I take it you are assuming numbers based on tier 15 which means when terrace was out fury was running with 40% crit on bt and people were playing it fine. At 50% that's a buff actually so I don't see an extra 10% on that as not a mandatory buff. I don't think that 10% is needed to play fury but of course the second a set bonus with that much crit enters the game it's mandatory because it's so good. If they add that 10% to bt then we will lose dps somewhere else but I can see your point of wanting smoother rotation. On the subject of perks I don't think it's lazy design I think they said "well we don't want them to level 10 time with no buffs so we will give them these since we doing it anyways."

[Cyclonus-WOW]

I suggest using the spacebar.

But the spacebar doesn't generate rage? =P

I think that while Meathead fails at being eloquent in any sense, and I shudder to think of how bad the other 1500 posts were in his long history, his skepticism is probably somewhat warranted. Warriors have often had a bit of a rollercoaster in terms of us getting the limelight, and losing all our tanks to monks or whichever expansion/patch you want to cry about. We've been here since launch, we've always been decent at our job, and sometimes exceptional. I personally think we're great right now, at least in Prot PVE, which is my primary point of view. I haven't pvp'd since vanilla when my Kalimdor's Revenge+HOJ+SwordSpec+Windfury could machine gun paladins before they got to hit bubble.

We've got a long history, and while a little skepticism should be okay, I don't think the manner in which he presents his point is anything anybody really cares to read. I am happy to see we've got some people who do believe blizzard will balance it all, and we've got some realists who want to see final builds before they start to worry. Since this forum seems to be the only place to go to get really useful warrior info, this is a good place to be. Meathead might just be a real life warrior you guys, fueled by rage, and he's literally dps'ing his keyboard when you call him out on being a bit jaded.

Meathead, maybe you should come back and check the class out, I think you need the 120 rage talent, or to do a few more deadlifts, bro. I know most of us keyboard champions probably should.

[Artunias]

Meathead does have a point though, warriors have been WAY more rollercoasty than most classes I would say.

On that note though, I don't think classes have been as balanced across the board as they are now (warlocks being a small outlier on that) so I'm pretty confident in their ability to keep it that way.

[Fatalfuror]

I take it you are assuming numbers based on tier 15 which means when terrace was out fury was running with 40% crit on bt and people were playing it fine.

TIL "playing it fine" means "carried by Execute". Also that was T14.

Unfortunately, they're trying out the same thing again. Because inevitably having to change everything mid-expansion is a sign of good design. Oh, and learning from past mistakes is so 2013.

I don't think that 10% is needed to play fury

The entire reason Crit is so powerful for Fury is that it provides the engine for the way the spec plays. You want it until you can no longer gain anything from it. As it stands right now, that's going to be the entire expansion, yet again. Most assuredly if they stick to their guns with the removal of Reforging, since we won't be able to obtain anywhere near the same crit levels without it.

I wish Fury was more balanced on all levels, that it wasn't so binary, hit or miss. I wish BT wasn't basically the only ability driving the spec (a 1/5 chance on CS is pretty much negligible). I'd love to have more of a choice with stats, and not a braindead non-decision between gear with crit on it or gear without crit. I'd love to have something that scaled with Multistrike, or Versatility, or something that scaled better with Haste. It'd be nice if RB wasn't tied completely to Enrage. It'd be nice if they didn't screw with our one ability to control Enrage.

There's plenty of room for improvement, but as long as people are willing to accept "okay" or "good enough" then we probably won't get it. The classes that get the most work are those that seem to complain the most, who aren't as accepting when lazily designed mechanics are thrown at them.

This is the time to demand more. Not to accept less. As time goes on, they will be less and less likely to change things. If they hear "good enough" from the Warrior community, then that's what you're going to get. Not great, not amazing, but "okay".

[Jeroun]

The entire reason Crit is so powerful for Fury is that it provides the engine for the way the spec plays. You want it until you can no longer gain anything from it. As it stands right now, that's going to be the entire expansion, yet again. Most assuredly if they stick to their guns with the removal of Reforging, since we won't be able to obtain anywhere near the same crit levels without it.

I wish Fury was more balanced on all levels, that it wasn't so binary, hit or miss. I wish BT wasn't basically the only ability driving the spec (a 1/5 chance on CS is pretty much negligible). I'd love to have more of a choice with stats, and not a braindead non-decision between gear with crit on it or gear without crit. I'd love to have something that scaled with Multistrike, or Versatility, or something that scaled better with Haste. It'd be nice if RB wasn't tied completely to Enrage. It'd be nice if they didn't screw with our one ability to control Enrage.

There's plenty of room for improvement, but as long as people are willing to accept "okay" or "good enough" then we probably won't get it. The classes that get the most work are those that seem to complain the most, who aren't as accepting when lazily designed mechanics are thrown at them.

This is the time to demand more. Not to accept less. As time goes on, they will be less and less likely to change things. If they hear "good enough" from the Warrior community, then that's what you're going to get. Not great, not amazing, but "okay".

Spouting your own opinion of what you wan fury to play like as the only correct option doesn't make it true. You think we Should have less damage tied into crit and execute? And? I happen to like that and it doesn't make me wrong. Also FYI you cant reforge crit onto gear with crit on it so ya without reforging you could conceivably have just as much crit as right now.