6.0 Warrior changes discussion thread

[Breccia]

Some of you sound like entitled children. They make design changes as they see fit (let's not forget that they add new shit every expac and we were already at the breaking point), and they don't (usually) make changes that they don't agree with.

They determined what was best for each class ACCORDING TO THEIR VISION. Your vision might be different, and that's awesome and creative and you're so cool for thinking up stuff, but you're not Blizzard.

Let's review, shall we?

The alpha ends, and the Beta goes up. Invites are handed out first and foremost to active players, who log in and look at the new Arms rotation. These unpaid, volunteer, experienced testers then do exactly what they were asked, and agreed, to do: they posted feedback, and the feedback about the gameplay was overwhelmingly negative.

The Beta continued, and more class changed happened, and more testers got invited and involved. However, the core Arms gameplay, based on the feedback posted as agreed upon, got worse with such things as the uselessness of Mastery, the removal of both Heroic Strike and Ignite Weapon, MS being optional, the lvl 45 talent tier being useless, Ravager being the only lvl 100 talent, and that our damage was insanely high with such a high skill floor. It was around this time that Celestalon asked for a constructive discussion on the subject, then vanished without a trace for...well, he's still gone. But amongst other things, he points out how we, the Beta testers they invited to test the Beta, are at the pinnacle of gameplay and knowledge, and not represenattive of the population.

The Beta closed, the PTR opened, and with it a whole new batch of testers. Again, most of them posted openly and often about how Arms felt poor to them. Posts that Arms was bland and boring are widespread and upvoted, while posts about Arms being fun and interesting make a small minority and are immediately downvoted. Arms warriors remain the single most vocal spec in the game about how their no-synergy, no-skill class is boring and not fun, and the only response by Blizz is to increase the effect of Mastery just slightly enough to make MS useful again at level 100.

The 6.0 patch hits. All remaining Arms warriors have this spec dumped on them. The outcry renews on exactly the same topics that have been on the Beta forums since literally the day it opened. Yes, the testers were representative of the population after all. Blizz offers no response of any kind, other than to lower the damage of WW and Slam, which was predicted by just about everyone.

Then at both Q&A sessions at Blizzcon, the only known place a paying customer could even hope for a direct response on this, again, the single most vocal spec in the game about how badly their class plays and how unfun it is, and Blizz flat-out refuses to hear them. They blanket refuse any and all class-related questions, unless you're asking about Mana Gems or lying about being a warrior and demanding MS get nerfed.

Please circle the part where we are acting like children, and Blizzard is acting like a responsible company.

[cFortyfive]

this is a fairly accurate statement in my opinion.

Well to be fair it's nonetheless also just an assumption with there being not enough data accessible to the public on the subject everything is just pure speculation.
Obviously players aging is one of many valid reasons for population losses but even back in classic and tbc there were not only the permanent residents playing and all of the sudden calling it quits after wotlk resulting in those substantial losses.
According to the blizz numbers a hundred million people have played this game and while we obviously know that those are shittons of bots, alt accs and what not I'd still claim we'd be left with a fair number of individuals.

but Garrosh is one of the few that I've ever been like fuuuuckkkk this fight blows if you wipe. The main reason for that is a vast majority of the fight is a big faceroll, it just takes a significant portion of time, and then you have all of these mechanics at the very end.

Well at least it wasn't sha. that was such bs.

[Akay]

WTB warrior talk... go to a different forum for the debate on non-warrior topics

[Bierce IV]

Gladiator stance FTW! im happy with the upcoming changes to warriors

[Aceveda]

https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/531584347644899328

I know I'll be asking about Arms rotation. Spamming WW & Colossus Smash every 20 seconds isn't fun at all.
I want Overpower back, proccing from rend/dodge/parry like before. And the Unrelenting Assault passive to reward hitting casts with Overpower in PvP, that offered MUCH more engaging gameplay than Colossus Smash, it also gives Arms a baseline proc, which it needs!

[Artunias]

https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/531584347644899328

I know I'll be asking about Arms rotation. Spamming WW & Colossus Smash every 20 seconds isn't fun at all.
I want Overpower back, proccing from rend/dodge/parry like before. And the Unrelenting Assault passive to reward hitting casts with Overpower in PvP, that offered MUCH more engaging gameplay than Colossus Smash, it also gives Arms a baseline proc, which it needs!

Here's to hoping that we'll get some glimmer of hope for our beloved arms spec out of this Q&A

[Valkaneer]

Gladiator stance FTW! im happy with the upcoming changes to warriors

Not sure about how I feel about that. IMO Gladiator is going to be nerfed quite heavily once blizz feels enough warriors switched to play it. Blizz has said in MoP beta that they make new classes OP so people will play them, after ppl start playing them at a rate blizz is happy with that class gets beat with the bat. The Midwinter combat logs puts gladiator in the top 5 over mages, locks, fury, and rogues on pretty much every fight. Do you really think blizz is going to let that happen? Hell dps warriors are rare, at least in my guild, I don't want 50 new guys wanting to join the guild all gladiator warriors. I know its coming, I'm not looking forward to the mass FOTM ppl. Not sure if will even main my warrior now due to all the FOTM I know is coming.

[Ajdhfh]

Not sure about how I feel about that. IMO Gladiator is going to be nerfed quite heavily once blizz feels enough warriors switched to play it. Blizz has said in MoP beta that they make new classes OP so people will play them, after ppl start playing them at a rate blizz is happy with that class gets beat with the bat. The Midwinter combat logs puts gladiator in the top 5 over mages, locks, fury, and rogues on pretty much every fight. Do you really think blizz is going to let that happen? Hell dps warriors are rare, at least in my guild, I don't want 50 new guys wanting to join the guild all gladiator warriors. I know its coming, I'm not looking forward to the mass FOTM ppl. Not sure if will even main my warrior now due to all the FOTM I know is coming.

Where has blizz say they make classes OP in beta to have them play them more?

[Valkaneer]

https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/531584347644899328

I know I'll be asking about Arms rotation. Spamming WW & Colossus Smash every 20 seconds isn't fun at all.
I want Overpower back, proccing from rend/dodge/parry like before. And the Unrelenting Assault passive to reward hitting casts with Overpower in PvP, that offered MUCH more engaging gameplay than Colossus Smash, it also gives Arms a baseline proc, which it needs!

Yep not only do I want Over power back, but we need it, Rogues owning Arms Warriors is about as wrong as it gets. Over power was the equalizer and has always been. It was the rock to their scissors. How does an arms warrior beat a rogue now without over power?

- - - Updated - - -

Where has blizz say they make classes OP in beta to have them play them more?

Really? Not only have they said it but look at the records.

Draenei and BE OP racials.

DK released extreamly OP.

Goblins best racial for horde, same for Worgen.

Monks at release best racial, best healers, best tanks, and very close if not best dps.

I can't think of any new class or race from any Xpac that did not start out with either and OP racial or just OP class in general. Guardians would be the closest thing, but of coarse that because they were competing with the Monks. I'm not sure if I can find again where they said they make new classes / races OP so people will play them, but you have to lived under a rock not to notice how strong new things are when the release them.

[Ajdhfh]

Really? Not only have they said it but look at the records. DK released extreamly OP.


Monks at release best racial, best healers, best tanks, and very close if not best dps.

I can't think of any new class or race from any Xpac that did not start out with either and OP racial or just OP class in general. Guardians would be the closest thing, but of coarse that because they were competing with the Monks. I'm not sure if I can find again where they said they make new classes / races OP so people will play them, but you have to lived under a rock not to notice how strong new things are when the release them.

Well, I havent really ever played at the start of the expac, cept for this coming one, but I never remember anyone saying monk dps was over the top(same goes with tanking. I recall mw being relatively strong however). Also what do you mean by OP racial? Worgens, gobs, and pandas have not had any OP racials. I highly doubt Blizzard stated this, cause this would go against their whole aim for "strong balance".

[Valkaneer]

Well, I havent really ever played at the start of the expac, cept for this coming one, but I never remember anyone saying monk dps was over the top(same goes with tanking. I recall mw being relatively strong however). Also what do you mean by OP racial? Worgens, gobs, and pandas have not had any OP racials. I highly doubt Blizzard stated this, cause this would go against their whole aim for "strong balance".

300 food buff, you don't call that OP? There was a reason so many ppl switched to Panda at release of MoP. Brewmaster was finally smacked after 5.4 and that is when Warriors moved to the tops of the tanking charts. Before that BM was leaps and bound better than any tank in the game.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...00011111000000

I never said WW monks were over the top I said WW was near the top. Only a tank could beat my monk in AoE in Vaults. Monks recived massive reworks though all thought MoP. So I moved to something different, got sick of every major patch a total rework of the class.

[Celarent]

Now, assuming that I am the average "First generation" WoW player, and also that college is a time where we have more free time to play, marriage is a drag on our playtime, and kids add more on top of that, the WoW subscription trend lines up very well.

People make time for things they love, though, and there are more demographics in WoW's player base than yours.

Cataclysm did not meet expectations. Let's not dwell on which ones: we know there were a lot missed. I speak for many when I say that by February-March 2011, a significant number of guild members had found reasons in their differing stages of life to not play the game anymore.

[Breccia]

https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/531584347644899328

I know I'll be asking about Arms rotation. Spamming WW & Colossus Smash every 20 seconds isn't fun at all.
I want Overpower back, proccing from rend/dodge/parry like before. And the Unrelenting Assault passive to reward hitting casts with Overpower in PvP, that offered MUCH more engaging gameplay than Colossus Smash, it also gives Arms a baseline proc, which it needs!

Ohhhhh when did this become a thing? Lore might not have any ability to make changes, but he doesn't talk to us like we're children.

[Firebert]

Please circle the part where we are acting like children, and Blizzard is acting like a responsible company.

However, the core Arms gameplay, based on the feedback posted as agreed upon, got worse with such things as the uselessness of Mastery, the removal of both Heroic Strike and Ignite Weapon, MS being optional, the lvl 45 talent tier being useless, Ravager being the only lvl 100 talent, and that our damage was insanely high with such a high skill floor.

This bit, I guess; you're there to test and give feedback on the class, but it's up to Blizzard to make the changes. When they didn't, everyone goes ham to try to get something changed, but it's not up to you to make the changes.

Plus, there's plenty of overexaggeration here; Mastery was only useless for AoE, HS and Ignite Weapon needed to go to provide clarity for the class, and how big numbers were were not part of the testing phase (they were balanced later on).

Blizzard need to look out for their majorities; those complaining on the forums are always going to be a minority. How on earth are you going to prove something like this:

Yes, the testers were representative of the population after all.

...when there's literally hundreds of thousands of Arms Warriors and you only asked an unrepresentative handful (handpicked active players) what they thought?

I suppose I'll eventually be proven wrong with some Arms rework or something, but it's not on us to make changes for us, as Blizzard can see the bigger picture.

- - - Updated - - -

Yep not only do I want Over power back, but we need it, Rogues owning Arms Warriors is about as wrong as it gets. Over power was the equalizer and has always been. It was the rock to their scissors. How does an arms warrior beat a rogue now without over power?

Maybe we're not supposed to any more? Maybe Rogues now counter us instead of just any non-Arms spec?

[Deleted]

Firebert,
I don't really get your arguments at all.

Are you commenting on the feedback? If so, the feedback by the Warrior population (barring those who stated were using alts and had fun with the admittedly brainless and simple rotation) was negative for Arms.
There's the thread ignored for months on end about how Warriors feel about Arms, and the feedback is negative there aswell. And to my knowledge there's been no ingame or emailed survey about how casual Joe wants Arms to be played.

Let's get to the fun part: all this negative feedback originated by a request by Blizzard itself, and you are right: it's not up to us to make changes.
Still if feedback is ignored, then feedback should not be asked. This whole Arms' iteration is a travesty, I'll keep saying it, because not only it's an insult to one's intelligence, but it's poor PR too.

I honestly don't see the point, I FAIL to see the point, in asking people about a subject and then ignoring their point of view completely.
And the thing that baffles me the most is the strip, the removal, the butchery, but the adamant will to keep Protection intact to have Gladiator Stance as shiny as possible at release.

I'm kind of being bipolar in my approach to Arms as of lately, but still I played my Monk, DK (both Unholy and Frost), and all the Warrior specs. And faced all other classes as well as discussing with friends the common state of CCs and such.
And I do wonder why we got stripped of anything of interest.

For the sake of discussion, and then I'll stop writing because I'm kind of digressing, PvP wise the recent Sudden Death change really makes nothing for the current 90 metagame: Arms has no Rage to spend in Executes as it has no Rage to spend in Shield Barrier, and is better off with Taste for Blood no matter what.
** I do understand that 90 should not be taken into account any longer, still it's what we're playing in.

Maybe we're not supposed to any more? Maybe Rogues now counter us instead of just any non-Arms spec?

As it stands I'm having an hard time finding something Arms Warriors counter. How's that?

[Novaflare]

Tonight I learned the glory of the 6 second cooldown Shockwave. Apparently Evil Eye of Galakras cuts the cooldown of Shockwave in half twice when it hits 3 or more targets (for example, my heroic evil eye brings shockwave to 27.4 seconds and the cd when I hit 3 targets makes it a 6-7 sec cd. This is pretty baller, even if CC isn't exactly needed in SoO anymore. It's a shame that it's going away in WoD.

[Deleted]

Well, since Haste does a lot for a bunch of our cooldowns, the Eye may not be needed.

[Deleted]

Well, since Haste does a lot for a bunch of our cooldowns, the Eye may not be needed.

Haste does nothing to our cooldowns (except rotational abilities, but those arent affected by eye trinket anyways)

[Deleted]

WoW's subs peaked late Wrath / early Cataclysm. By that time, the people who had been playing up to that point grew up. They graduated, got married, had kids, and keep playing.

Fixed it

[Flalia4]

So I haven't read in like 20 pages but does anybody have a link for day 1 for us warriors? Specifically for garrison leveling intended to gear up for raids as quick as possible. (or if somebody wants to just say what building order I am a BS/Engineer)
Also I saw some mention of Hamstring weaving to bleed of rage or something is this still a viable thing to be doing? I know during heroism I just sit at max rage constantly with SD.