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  1. #141
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    I loved fel flame when it was still capable of refreshing your dots.
    I'm still against its removal whatsoever.

    Also, I'm going to have a hard time visiting the LFR without soulshatter.
    Last edited by Charaz; 2014-04-06 at 11:43 AM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Rurts View Post
    every other caster spec has some instant for these same reasons, makes no sense for warlocks to lose theirs.
    I believe that Class diversity is a good thing and if "everyone" has something then it makes sense for some classes to lose this. to lose some ability bloat, add more Class diversity, and make room for more innovative Spells. Keep in Mind other classes lose some of their stuff as well, like Hunters no more Serpent Sting = MultiDot Loss, or some Mages lose MultiDot also.


    So in Wod you lose fel Flame and Healthstoen viability but Warlocks have new stuff like the Gateway from Mists, or empowered core Spells in WoD as well as some fresh new abilities, like control powerful Demons, or the new Cataclysm Spell.

    The game would not be possible to play as a Human, and running on "only" a few dozens keyboard buttons if all Abilities from Every Expansion were kept in addition to new Abilities being added. Some old Spells just have to go and in my Opinion Spells which are shared by all Classes are the perfect target for elimination.
    Capitalism, Ho!

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    I believe that Class diversity is a good thing and if "everyone" has something then it makes sense for some classes to lose this. to lose some ability bloat, add more Class diversity, and make room for more innovative Spells. Keep in Mind other classes lose some of their stuff as well, like Hunters no more Serpent Sting = MultiDot Loss, or some Mages lose MultiDot also.


    So in Wod you lose fel Flame and Healthstoen viability but Warlocks have new stuff like the Gateway from Mists, or empowered core Spells in WoD as well as some fresh new abilities, like control powerful Demons, or the new Cataclysm Spell.

    The game would not be possible to play as a Human, and running on "only" a few dozens keyboard buttons if all Abilities from Every Expansion were kept in addition to new Abilities being added. Some old Spells just have to go and in my Opinion Spells which are shared by all Classes are the perfect target for elimination.
    Except that we already had a spell since classic that filled most of the roles Fel Flame does, called Searing Pain. Ultimately, Fel Flame superceded that because it also could be cast while moving with it being instant, as well as being available when school locked. This is actually a regression from classic design, it is not taking away something that's relatively new.

  4. #144
    I looked up some of my logs.
    Even on fights with a considerable amount of movement like Thok or Blackfuse, Fel Flame accounts for less than 1% of my overall damage done.
    I understand that this is going to cause bigger problems in PvP, but from a PvE point of view very few fights "require" KJC. AD is still the better option, even with the removal of FF.

  5. #145
    I wonder if Blizz underestimated Fel Flame's usefulness because of all the folks who are saying "lol I never used Fel Flame". They see from their data that, yeah, most locks don't actually use it. I mean, I'm far from a high-end lock, but I use it just like Brusalk says he does. Even when I'm spec'd into KJC I use Fel Flame all the damn time. Can't tell you how many times I've gotten one last Shadowburn out because of FF, or even just a FF when there wasn't enough time for an Incinerate.

    Celestalon is saying in that interview that encounters will be designed with general less ranged mobility in mind but I'm having a hard time seeing them for the first time ever making encounters less, rather than more, complicated. Maybe the first tier will "only" require the same amount of movement as MoP raids, just with most folks less mobile. Because if they revert to fights with minimal movement required, people will complain they're too boring / simple.
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  6. #146
    Defiantly should keep fel flame in the game would be a stupid decision to remove it.
    Streaming high end lock, mage and warrior play in 1080p.http://www.twitch.tv/yoloswagins

  7. #147
    I can't understand the intention there.

    Mop fights are way more fun then previous tiers. I can't see why they want to revert to turret mode casters again.

    In my opinion the thing to do is keep up with the innovative helter skelter mechanics and design movement for all classes.

    I understand that that infringes on melee role but they have gap closers galore now. Surely there is more that differentiates a Warrior from a 'Lock then DPS while moving. Like Warlocks having to kill ourselves for mana, speed boost and AoE. See? That's different.

    Back O.T. It's a dead usefull spell and should be improved rather then removed
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2014-04-06 at 02:35 PM.

  8. #148
    I agree - why can't they adjust melee to compensate for target switching. Make it so time spent not attacking gives them back enough resources / lets their short cds come back so it's not a loss. Maybe make more dots only allowed to be on one target for casters, but allow bleeds on multiple targets. Or something.

    I understand we're just at the very beginning of Alpha / Beta, but it seems like their intent is to limit encounter design just to enforce a very arbitrary melee/caster paradigm, without exploring other potential solutions that don't limit encounter design.
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  9. #149
    Fel flame did/does have some problems that would have to be sorted by WoD so I think in the name of apathy/time constraints the devs found an easy way out to just prune it rather than fix it.

    In some situations it was a complete dump/trap like demo/meta when it became void ray. They could have made void ray a chain lightning so demo can aoe safely from range but went for the delete instead. Fel flame had some steep mana costs which made for problems (doing more dmg to yourself via lifetapping its spell cost) with battle fatigue and base resilience but with those gone that problem actually became simpler so no real reason there. Fel flame was an important pvp resource generator for 2/3 specs since we basically get to wear melee as a buttplug once they are on us. They are really going to have to improve our ability to fight back with a melee in our face if they intend to stay this course. PVE you can argue KJC/AD/MF all day long but for the most part it was still a choice...this will force more KJC since cataclysm spell will do burst aoe.

    The single biggest problem with the removal of fel flame is quality of life. Not for the min/maxing HC raider, not for the LFR "avg joe", not even the pvp'er. Its the removal of a tool that was pretty useful in a ton of situations though almost always suboptimal. It was convenience > power tradeoff which is pretty core to human nature in terms of enjoying something. Nobody was getting glad due to it, nobody was breaking damage records or encounters with it, it was just nice to have in a bunch of situations. Taking that out is just pissing people off for the sake of lazy/apathetic development.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by devla View Post
    I looked up some of my logs.
    Even on fights with a considerable amount of movement like Thok or Blackfuse, Fel Flame accounts for less than 1% of my overall damage done.
    I understand that this is going to cause bigger problems in PvP, but from a PvE point of view very few fights "require" KJC. AD is still the better option, even with the removal of FF.
    You need to specify what spec you're talking about here... Fel Flame is a huge thing for Destruction as it's needed to generate embers without KjC while moving. If you're talking about Destro you need to take into account the value of the emberbits you gained as well as Fel Flames direct damage.1

  11. #151
    Not to sound like a broken record but the damage of Fel Flame only goes so far, it's the UTILITY that we'll miss.

    Totem and banner stomping, being able to break MCs without dotting, spell lockout alternative or used to avoid a lockout altogether, etc.
    Last edited by Rethul Ur No; 2014-04-06 at 09:25 PM.

  12. #152
    as a demo lock in pvp fel flame is one of my most used spells and with it gonna i will be completely immobile

  13. #153
    Just the backlash alone should be justification for keeping Soul Shatter and Fel Flame.

    Haven't seen anyone here weeping over the loss of Curse of Enfeeblement or pining for the return of Curse of Recklessness. Even Searing Pain, which has always been a favorite spell of mine, rather justifiably has no place in the current state of warlocks.

    No one wants a 3 second window and a hard cast to do damage, nor does anyone wants to die when adds get away or when a tank dies.

  14. #154
    Misdirect will last an hour. So ... basically threat dumps are no longer needed.
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  15. #155
    Since dot snapshotting is gone in WoD why not bring back the Fel Flame dot extension mechanic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblecrush View Post
    There's really no luck to it. Blizzard is VERY good at conditioning their low self-esteemed players into obedient pets. They come to see Blizzard as a close relative or extension of themselves, which is why any criticism is registered as judgement on their personal taste and MUST be defended against at all costs.

  16. #156
    Since casting-on-the-move is getting nerfed, we know shamans are losing lightning bolt on the move, I think all should get nerfed equally.
    However, I'd rather see locks lose KJC, and keep Fel Flame.

    Mages get a speedboost perk with Scorch, so that shouldn't be useable on the move imo.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The talents were designed with Fel Flame's existence in mind. Does it really make sense to remove a spell then rework a whole row of talents? I'd be fine with that, but realistically, it just makes more sense to keep the spell.
    Even with the spell it's still not balanced. Locks are a mess, same with mages. Changed and removed so much shit there horrible now. Need some kewl shit back like Shadowflame, some new spell like Demonic Fire or Demonic Bolt....Get Shadow Bolt back as main filler..Make drain life a viable secondary option...Dark Bargain makes zero sense with the harsh penalty with a very long CD needs to be reworked, other 2 are way better. Haunt could be made much better and more engaging like having it be equal to Destro Chaos Bolt, have it be this real cool looking screaming haunt bolt. Just a lot of stuff they can be doing, should be doing and there not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rurts View Post
    In addition to your tendency to pat yourself on the back a bit too much, you also still keep missing the point. Even if the lvl 90 talent tier gets reworked so that the incentive to use FF as part of the rotation disappears completely, removing it is still a reasonable QoL concern. It's not just about totems, it's not just about casting in pvp (which will still suck with all the gap closers and kicks which haven't really been pruned much).

    It's about not having an instant direct damage spell as affliction, for example. Consider non-dottable hostile items (Galakras encounter says hi), MC mechanics (Hellscream says hi), spell reflect mechanics, school lockouts, mechanics which force you to hit something once in a while (Horridon says hi). Consider achievements, tactics, quests that require you to *damage* but not *kill* some target. Consider simple convenience shortcuts, e.g. with Seed of Corruption, which is the only reliable aoe I get as affli - I might, at times, decide to detonate a seed faster by pinging a seeded target with FF. Then consider tagging mobs in open world pvE, e.g. questing (yes, something like that exists too) - w/o a viable instant as affli you'd never tag anything in a crowded zone, because dots need to tick to tag anything. Then consider old content, many levels below you. Instead of casting FF to one-shot something, now you'd have to put corr on it and wait. Same with pruning critters to fish for a rare or w/e.

    It might of course all seem trivial to a "top tier Warlock" (lol) such as yourself, but all of these little things certainly tend to do add up when playing the game long enough in all the different ways different people actually play. Hence the "quality of life" term. Really, that Arganis fellow, apart from raging a bit too much, was actually spot on - there's much more to the game than optimal dps rotation. If you'd have played a warlock AS MAIN for years, as you seem to suggest, you'd understand, but alas, you're too busy talking out of your ass and, of course, topping dps meters nobody but you has seen ;]

    ????? So let me guess you want me to go on a goose chase gathering data for you proving to someone i don't care about that what am saying is true and in the end will still have no impact on anything and overall will still be a general waste of time? Fel Flame was a boring half broken spell that you used as a last resort. A spell like that isnt well made. Many things can be done to make it a more interesting, engaging/fun spell. Nice try tho buddy, like always i appreciate efforts taken from fellows like yourself makes me blush.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by beNN View Post
    Fel Flame is NOT a situational spell, so much so that I have it bound to "1".

    Fel flame is the only way for affliction to have some sort of instant damage, as it has been said before it's the ONLY way to kill a totem unless you waste a haunt on it and it's the ONLY source of damage on the move if you don't have KJC.

    For destruction fel flame can be incredibly useful to generate embers, say you have a mob at 25% and you know that you will kill it with an incinerate, what do you do? Easy: fel flame it to below 20% and shadowburn it to get embers back.
    Say you have massive trinket procs expirig in 1 second and you are sitting on 0.9 embers, what do you do? Easy: fel flame and shadowburn before the procs run out.

    There are so many uses for fel flame I really hope it doesn't go away.
    You just said Fel Flame isnt a situational spell yet every example you mentioned was extremely situational.
    Last edited by DarkArchon; 2014-04-07 at 01:59 AM.

  18. #158
    Warchief Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinewaylee View Post
    As a lock,I don't matter a more button to place especially Fel Flame.
    It's a green fire which is a best distinguish from other classes.
    To destr and demo, it's the most important spell to gain Second Source when in pvp situation.
    Without it,or no KC,we will do nothing on the move,while fire mage has scorch.


    Please ruturn to us,other's change I'm pleased to accept.
    You're assuming that Fire will keep cast-on-the-move scorch. They're removing that from Shaman's lb so safe to assume it will come off of scorch.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    The dishonest are want to identify dishonesty, even where it doesn't exist.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    You're assuming that Fire will keep cast-on-the-move scorch. They're removing that from Shaman's lb so safe to assume it will come off of scorch.
    They've said it's staying. Plus Scorch would have literally no purpose if it wasn't cast-on-the-move. Why cast Scorch when you can cast a Fireball?

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    They've said it's staying. Plus Scorch would have literally no purpose if it wasn't cast-on-the-move. Why cast Scorch when you can cast a Fireball?
    Because ...it's faster??

    Casting on the move needs to be nerfed equally.

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