Demo's AoE woes and WoD

[Lanorala]

Hey everyone,

Just a intro here, feel free to jump to the numbered list for the TL;DR :P


As a demo lock I occasionally run into the issue of being in an setting where AOE is a DPS gain but being in melee is possible (due to mechanics mostly) Going into WoD demo locks are losing out on Metamorphosis: Void Ray which was often used as a ranged AoE filler and previously to refresh corruption (though this was removed/forgotten about in 5.4 (?) changes).

As of now, we have a 2 charge ranged AoE damage +dot in Hand of Gul'dan, a channeled AoE that is melee in hellfire and an more powerful version in Meta which is immolation aura. Not to mention we have Chaos Wave in meta which replaces HoG and retains the 2 charge system but instead of the dot, it applies a slow on the target. Typically it is a DPS loss to use chaos wave in meta in an AOE rotation due to the loss of the dot and fury generation. Last but not least as demonology we typically use the felgaurd and his GoSer counterpart for burst AoE damage using Felstorm on a 45 sec CD (requires 60 fel energy) and a 1 minute cool down for our second demon to join again.

To not be taken lightly, if the conditions are right Demo has the potential for absurd burst AoE damage that is only overshadowed by destro and afflic due to current raid designs favoring their spell/spec design. What I mean to say is I do not think that DPS numbers are what makes Demo's damage seem so poor in this current tier but rather as everyone has mentioned, the encounters are suited more to the other specs spell design. But we all knew that already.




TL;DR

The point of my post is to discuss pros/cons of current Demo AoE capabilities and thoughts or suggestions of how it can be improved going into WoD. I personally have a few suggestions, although I'm sure there are implications I have not thought through so they could be considered OP or fine as is; simply looking for some fun discussion and brainstorming by the lock community

1. Hellfire shouldn't have to be channeled. The spell currently deals damage to all enemies within range equal to damage dealt to ourselves; I do not see that it is necessary to have to continue to channel AND deal damage to us. At lower haste/gear levels we have slow ramp up on fury generation so being able to cast while the spell is toggled (just as it works in meta) would allow us to gain fury while dealing damage to ourselves (the risk for reward). Again, not sure how fury generation will scale in WoD but it would be a nice change since Aff no longer has any channeled AoE and well destro's AoE is the strongest out of our specs.

2. T16 4-set to be baseline for our AoE. Although based on RNG, I quite liked the extra damage the bonus gave us. Although I more often than not saw more CW's being casted while in meta (likely due to the big purply wave visual) I thought the bonus was a fair DPS gain that I feel was detrimental for demo to be even competitive with the other specs this tier. Since our ranged AoE is on the two charge system, it allowed us occasions to have that AoE dot from shadow flame increase our fury gen for max meta uptime.


3. Lastly, I suggest the stereotypical new AoE spell that is often thought up in these kinds of posts. I haven't really had the time to think of a really good one although I think I read someones suggestion earlier of a "shadowbolt rain of fire" or maybe even a spell that used the visual of of Glyph of Shadowbolt but increased it to 6 bolts with increased damage that would each hit a different target. This new AoE spell or any other idea would be mainly used in caster form for fury generation with a meta counterpart that isn't too OP (much like how CW is used in meta but its more advantageous to not use it in meta).


So sorry for the wall of text! I just realized how bad....
Hopefully we can get some quality discussion rather than just "Demo's AoE is fine". I'm no pro but I'm trying to learn everything I can to improve my play style so if you do think that our current AoE is fine then please explain why it is fine and what its strengths/weakness are.

[Count Zero]

They could just make Hellfire / Immo Aura cast on a target rather than on yourself.

Simples.

I wouldn't be mad at a shadowbolt volley, tho

[Skayth]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12428522967

I will leave that here. Went on a long post about it in the forums and it got no views.

and count zero, id love me some shadowbolt volley.

[Jessicka]

Demo's AoE was pretty much fine with the old Mannoroth's Fury. It didn't lump all your damage into a tiny burst window, and you could generally actually hit stuff far enough to be safe.

The needless change to MF broke it, it put so much burst into a small window that they nerfed Hellfire and Immolation repeatedly to ensure that wasn't excessive, resulting in damage outside that window being pitiful, as well as often completely unavailable. That isn't just a problem we would have had this tier; it wouldn't have worked for Horridon, Magaera, Durumu, or Lei Shen from last tier, nor at Windlord previous tier... I could keep going on back through expansions with examples but the whole 'melee caster' thing in general was a complete disaster right through Cataclysm.

I love the concept and the graphic of Hellfire/Immolation, but if it's not to be supported by Mannoroth's - the exact reason we begged to keep it, because with that we could deal with it - then maybe we should just go back to the MoP build where they just gave us Rain of Fire.

[Skayth]

Demo's AoE was pretty much fine with the old Mannoroth's Fury. It didn't lump all your damage into a tiny burst window, and you could generally actually hit stuff far enough to be safe.

The needless change to MF broke it, it put so much burst into a small window that they nerfed Hellfire and Immolation repeatedly to ensure that wasn't excessive, resulting in damage outside that window being pitiful, as well as often completely unavailable. That isn't just a problem we would have had this tier; it wouldn't have worked for Horridon, Magaera, Durumu, or Lei Shen from last tier, nor at Windlord previous tier... I could keep going on back through expansions with examples but the whole 'melee caster' thing in general was a complete disaster right through Cataclysm.

I love the concept and the graphic of Hellfire/Immolation, but if it's not to be supported by Mannoroth's - the exact reason we begged to keep it, because with that we could deal with it - then maybe we should just go back to the MoP build where they just gave us Rain of Fire.

yep. The only reason why Immolation aura was great was simply because of the original Mannoroth's fury. With 500% increased radius. then they nerfed immo, and then they nerfed mannoroths fury to 300% (though they tried to make it look like a buff.) and then we got nerfed yet again, and finally Mannoroths fury is the garbage we have today, for simple burst dps.

Now, we actually have to run into melee, and run back out (pending leap and tp circle if u can use it) and we are the only class to do such a stupid move. I do not think they will ever buff us or mannoroths fury, so instead i am stead fast on having my hellfire/immolation aura replaced with a ranged aoe. At this point, prior to the next expansion, the devs need to decide on fixing this problem. i am for any sort of range aoe, either it being rain of fire, or Count Zero's placing hellfire and immolation on target at range. Hell, just give me shadowbolt volley, I will be happy with that. (ahhh good old doomlord kazak invading stormwind... shadowbolt volleying everyone during the bc launch event... those were fun times)

[Jessicka]

I think Shadow Bolt volley might be considered to be too much like FnB Incinerate, even though obviously its been around forever on NPCs (which is what makes it cool). Depends his it was implemented I guess.

[Lanorala]

Wellp your post said everything I wanted to say but in a much more eloquent way. Glad we're on the same wavelength!

[6kle]

Yes please, shadowbolt volley for demo.

[Killem]

Without having read your post completely, there is a controversial situation for Demo.

1. Demo has no sufficient toolkit for doing AoE damage from a distance.
2. Adding another spell is against Blizzard's current philosophy of removing spells
3. They already crippled Demo's AoE by removing Carrion Swarm and Void Ray (making it bad in 5.4).
4. Solution without adding new spells: Mark Demo internally as melee, that they have the possibility to utilize Hellfire/Immo Aura.

But even that solution is very bad and would cause other problems.
Their current philosophy (of removing spells) isn't completely viable.

[Count Zero]

Can anyone think of any downsides to making Hellfire/ImmoAura cast on a target ?

[Jessicka]

Can anyone think of any downsides to making Hellfire/ImmoAura cast on a target ?

It'd be like Mind Sear, so no.

[Gohzerlock]

They could just make Hellfire / Immo Aura cast on a target rather than on yourself.

Simples.

I wouldn't be mad at a shadowbolt volley, tho

I'd give up so much for a shadowbolt volley.

[Nighthaven-]

I wouldn't vouch for a demonology Mind Sear and I like the different 'feel' of a melee AoE caster.
If everyone were to have the same functioning spell with a different name the game would be even more bland.

Turning MF back into a passive with a (?) ~30% Damage boost to Immolation Aura and Hellfire and no active ability would extend our reach sufficiently, and compensate for the ridiculous nerf to AoE Fire and OP potential during MF. Generating enough fury just to use MF on cooldown to maximize uptime where it was competitive was just plain boring.

This might sound controversial - but:
I like the idea of Shadowbolt Volley - but the only thing is should replace button wise is Chaos Wave as it sees little use.
With this I would reduce the damage of HoG to match a 10s cooldown instead of 15s.
Because when you don't have your HoG charges ready for that certain short-lived pack in raid setting (that will die before both your charges come off-cooldown), you dps as demo suffers incredibly.
Reducing cooldown and damage will ensure more chances of 'connecting' such a small window event. You will obviously end up staying in meta for less time before utilizing your next Hog-weave, yet that is such a small trade off for QoL when you miss a pack with HoG timing.

But then again, if they decide to keep Fel Flame - Shadow bolt volley should instead replace Void Ray with a adjusting Meta modifier.

But more realistically: Drain-life could turn into the old Harvest life for Demo in Meta with a substantial damage boost per drain.

[Grizelda]

It'd be like Mind Sear, so no.

I can't see this as a reason to not do it. Lot's of things are similar to other things and there are only so many targeting mechanisms to go around.

Hell fire is a cool looking spell so options could be: Glyphs that make it target caster, pet or enemy or a targeting reticulum.
And really, the whole killing yourself to DPS thing is old. It doesn't seem to fit anymore. I don't see what the pay off is for the added expense of our health.

Shadowbolt volley would be bad ass but with the whole "pruning the tree" mentality that is rampant that would probably mean a loss of Hellfire.

[Jessicka]

I can't see this as a reason to not do it. Lot's of things are similar to other things and there are only so many targeting mechanisms to go around.

Hell fire is a cool looking spell so options could be: Glyphs that make it target caster, pet or enemy

Shadowbolt volley would be bad ass but with the whole "pruning the tree" mentality that is rampant that would probably mean a loss of Hellfire.

I meant that Mind Sear has no downsides, and being like it would mean casting Hellfire on a target would mean it similarly lacking in downsides

But yes, it being like Mind Sear is itself kind of a reason why not to duplicate it...

[Grizelda]

I have been playing my Shadow priest lately and running my Lock as Demo.

AoE in Demo is engaging. I mess with my I-Tunes While I AoE as my Spriest.

I'd actually like to keep the loss of life while channeling Hellfire but I want some pay off.

Same with Life Tap. But I don't see how unless we revisit Glyph of Life Tap again.

*winces*

[Jessicka]

The key difference is movement. With Hellfire you're the one chasing the mobs around, not the tank.

Incidentally, talking of Life Tap, it is one of those abilities we can move with... Something Celastalon did have a point with in the interview; people forgot what spells they can actually move with when they have too many move-while-cast abilities.

[Skayth]

I have been playing my Shadow priest lately and running my Lock as Demo.

AoE in Demo is engaging. I mess with my I-Tunes While I AoE as my Spriest.

I'd actually like to keep the loss of life while channeling Hellfire but I want some pay off.

Same with Life Tap. But I don't see how unless we revisit Glyph of Life Tap again.

*winces*

Aoe demo is engaging in its current form, yes, but is also a loss of dps if you are not already in melee. Dont get me wrong, you technically make up for it with all the burst you do that moment. But. What if. You did not have to run into melee? Not Only that, we are losing carrion swarm and void ray, One of our bursts and our filler. The trip to melee sounds less appealing.

[Grizelda]

That's a dam good point about the movement perk of Hellfire. Demon leaping into a mass of mobs with Hellfire up is one of my favorite things about the spec.

Regarding Life Tap: It's nice you can cast it on the move but to what end? Does any other DPS really worry about mana at all? I don't know how much it really hits mages for example.

[Paarthurnax]

without void-ray or carrion swarm they are going to have to make hellfire hit really really hard. that or they are just lowering aoe in general so things like chain-lightning and FnB wont be anywhere close to as efficient as it is now.