Why do prison murders still happen?

[Hooked]

Prison rapes are only an American thing. It doesn't happen in most other countries.

I watched that French movie "the prophet" and it seemed like it was also an issue in French prisons as well. Great movie by the way.

[theostrichsays]

It's funny how many people believe all they do in prison is just rape one another. I'm actually taking corrections right now. What the media shows and what actually happens is quite different.

Please note my source is anecdotal being my father/uncles/cousins who were in prison for violent crimes/drug charges.
If people are talking about the stereotypical "Big Bubba" coming for your "Cornbread" type of rape, then yes it is overly dramatic in comparison to real life. Shashank Redemption style ordeals are not common, but even when they occur they are not frequently reported unless medical attention is required. One of my cousins, was the victim of a prison rape, he was assaulted with a object and simply remained quiet until the need for medical attention was to great. His reasoning was, he didn't want to set himself up for the ridicule and harassment that it would entail (lets be honest prison is a fairly social place given your there with each other for a while), he also admitted as much that after nearly 20 years (I think it was 18 total) that he only knew of one other forced rape. He also never mentioned why he was attacked, but he was reprimanded behind bars for contraband and alcohol.
What many people consider to be sexual assault though, while equally under reported are a bit more frequent. The only reason I mention it as sexual assault rather then rape, is many people hold male on male sexual acts to different standards. Once again it was never made to be a rampant event either, I mean people are not going willy nilly coercing other individuals into blow jobs, but the truth was they all (who are not incarcerated and talk about it talking 4/6 and 3 of those 4) admitted that sometimes people were coerced into doing things they otherwise wouldn't do.
I do understand that it is a small sample size, of anecdotal data, but it is people I know personally with first hand experience. So yes the media representation of it is fairly overblown, but it is not something is just completely unheard of either. But it would seem to be that the social consquences of reporting are at times a greater risk then the fear of continued abuse (unless the fear in reporting is more abuse but it was never really implied that way.)

[Deleted]

Delete.........

[dehotz]

It is a deterrent for others to not commit or repeat a crime.

Well there are two types of deterrence, general and specific. While there actually is a case for arguing that it does function as a form of specific deterrence, meaning that it does prevent that specific person from committing more crime what you're saying it's a general deterrent meaning that it makes other people less likely to commit murder. There is just no evidence that this is the case.

Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned are truth-in-sentencing laws. They ensure that an individual serves the vast bulk of his time in prison and essentially eliminate parole. While on the surface this may seem like a good thing the trouble is that it removes the valuable tool of parole from the correctional institutes. If they have the ability to control to some degree how long an individual will spend in prison than they can use that to enforce good behavior from inmates while they are incarcerated.

[Deleted]

Someone who spends 8 hours a day supervising prisoners will always lose to someone who spends 24 hours being one.

[Deleted]

American (could be other countries as well, can't say) prisons aren't about rehabilitating prisoners. They're an industrial complex, where the people who own and run those prisons (private companies) make more money the more prisoners there are in them.

That's why there's so many people doing hard time, years and years, for smoking a single joint and so on.

[simsumre]

Because in America we have a FOR PROFIT prison system that just so happens to hold the world's largest prison population. And they throw you in a cage for smoking a plant. But whatever, it's not a scam or anything...

[OneSent]

Apathetic prison guards?

[Hooked]

American (could be other countries as well, can't say) prisons aren't about rehabilitating prisoners. They're an industrial complex, where the people who own and run those prisons (private companies) make more money the more prisoners there are in them.

That's why there's so many people doing hard time, years and years, for smoking a single joint and so on.

No one does hard time for smoking a joint, the prisons are full that's why they keep releasing violent criminals early.

[Velaniz]

I really question whether it's about having scruples or simply viewing them as weak, thus victimizing them to establish and reinforce hierarchy.

That's probably a huger part of it than what you replied to said. The whole issue of scruples is less actually motivated by scruples and more by a need to feel like there's someone out there that's beneath them, which really isn't even remotely the case if we're looking at murders vs pedophilia. They probably just fancy themselves as higher class criminals.

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Would you rape someone knowing that you'd lose your dick doing so? Would you steal knowing that you might lose your hand or arm? How many relapsing dickless rapists do you think there would be? How many one- or non-limbed thief's would there be? Why incarcerate mass murderers when you can kill them? Why treat violent psychopaths and sociopaths when there is no cure? Why do we spend so much money and effort on lost causes?

I'm not saying we should drag people into the darkness of an alley and chop of their limbs left to right. Nah, lets do it humanely- Put them under anesthesia and surgically amputate their tool of crime. I bet ya there wont be any repeat offenders and people will think both twice and three times before committing a crime. It's just a much more effective way to prevent crime imo.

Wow, someone actually thinks this should be a thing.

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Anyone with sense knows the rehabilitation thing is a joke. The punishment is the only purpose.

No, the deterrence is the main factor. Punishment and rehabilitation come afterward, and the degree to which either is emphasized varies with the country.

[Deleted]

No one does hard time for smoking a joint, the prisons are full that's why they keep releasing violent criminals early.

Well, you're right. Maybe nobody does hard time for smoking a joint.

http://www.theweedblog.com/man-gets-...-of-marijuana/

Mr. Ladd was sentenced to twenty years in prison for possessing just 15 grams of marijuana. In Louisiana, if you have been convicted of marijuana possession three times you can get 20 years in prison.

Had two possession convictions, was found with 15 grams (half an ounce) of marijuana, got 20 years.

Sure sure, it's not the same, but it's still completely and utterly ridiculous.

[Duronos]

I've seriously lost a lot of respect for many posters in this thread. People fuck up, they go to prison... Prison itself is punishment because you cannot be part of the real world, the rehab part that Scandinavian prisons do is a fantastic thing because it often helps people not re commit crimes.

Now I don't know about you guys but I don't think I should have rotted away forever in a cell because I lashed out at my mother once after she hit me. I went to jail and the jail where I live is known to be much worse than prison. It was pretty much solitary confinement and it was hard to sleep the day away plus the food, the food was not enough to sustain my hunger. I was hungry constantly and there are many of you in here saying that people like me should rot away forever because I got into a brawl with my mother? Go to hell.

[Wildtree]

I've seriously lost a lot of respect for many posters in this thread. People fuck up, they go to prison... Prison itself is punishment because you cannot be part of the real world, the rehab part that Scandinavian prisons do is a fantastic thing because it often helps people not re commit crimes.

Now I don't know about you guys but I don't think I should have rotted away forever in a cell because I lashed out at my mother once after she hit me. I went to jail and the jail where I live is known to be much worse than prison. It was pretty much solitary confinement and it was hard to sleep the day away plus the food, the food was not enough to sustain my hunger. I was hungry constantly and there are many of you in here saying that people like me should rot away forever because I got into a brawl with my mother? Go to hell.

Slow down fella...
I understand your anger, trust me. You have first hand experience, and of course you cannot understand the views of many posters here.
But you also have to consider the source..
What is the source? With your post count, I'm pretty certain you know...
This place has a small fraction of awesome people who may not always agree on everything, and are then more or less passionately discussing out their disagreements. They show always respect (at least the will) for their discussion partners. And that's where debates are fun and more than often productive. And then you got the huge pot of all kinds of other people.
Misinformed, low educated, too young to know, too much of their own burden, misanthropes, bigots, homophobes, trolls, jerks, radicals, ignorant, and of course also not so smart people, and a whole array of other counter productive contributors.

[Deleted]

I've seriously lost a lot of respect for many posters in this thread. People fuck up, they go to prison... Prison itself is punishment because you cannot be part of the real world, the rehab part that Scandinavian prisons do is a fantastic thing because it often helps people not re commit crimes.

Now I don't know about you guys but I don't think I should have rotted away forever in a cell because I lashed out at my mother once after she hit me. I went to jail and the jail where I live is known to be much worse than prison. It was pretty much solitary confinement and it was hard to sleep the day away plus the food, the food was not enough to sustain my hunger. I was hungry constantly and there are many of you in here saying that people like me should rot away forever because I got into a brawl with my mother? Go to hell.

This might come as a shocker, but if you read any of the prison threads on MMO, you'd know most people here only think about revenge, not actual justice or rehabilitation.

[BLCalliente]

School food is paid for by the tax payers in Sweden so is prisoners food. The student don't pay anything, it's paid for through taxes. A can of food for a cat costs more than what a meal for people at school costs.

I have no idea why you are riding this (barely relevant to the discussion) point so hard.

If cat food is more expensive than a school kid's meal, then why not start a thread about the children in Swedish schools?

[Khoranth]

Well, in the USA, I would say the answer is: people don't really care.

I think most People here view prison as a place to put criminals, to keep them away from law abiding citizens. So prison, or a grave, either way, they are kept away from law abiding citizens.

Changing prisons to rehabilitation centers is something rarely talked about in the USA.

[BLCalliente]

Stop treating criminals as if they're kids that don't understand better. The vast majority of people who commit crimes understand perfectly fine that it is wrong.

You know this because mind reading.

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They are adults, they know whats right and wrong. They just dont care

Or they have no other choice, or a hundred other reasons.

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If they think they need help then they should search it out themselves instead of committing crimes. If they don't think they need help then any rehabilitation measures done in prison is completely unecessesary and useless. Crime is always a choice.

Your world view is so sheltered.

Show them that they do need help and how to get it perhaps?

[Wildtree]

Changing prisons to rehabilitation centers is something rarely talked about in the USA.

But it does exist. There are prisons where they rehabilitate people..
A few pages earlier I provided a link to a college program, where inmates in fact graduate and get degrees.
For which I suspect, makes these graduates more productive and accomplished than some who vow for harsh sentences or even execution.

[BLCalliente]

Actually, human emotions can be removed from the picture quite easily, by instead applying a couple of principles.

1) If you have ANY personal connection to a case aside from simple empathy for a stranger, you do not make decisions.

2) You realize criminals are people who do things for reasons. And thus you strive to take those reasons into account instead of dehumanizing criminals. I could also reassess this point that it is fine to have empathy for the victim(s) but empathy should be extended to criminals as well. Of course this requires level headedness, which is why 1) should be enforced at all costs.

3) You take society's best interests into account, especially taking the "long run" into account. Long run means that taxing people more for better prison conditions on the long run WILL create a better and more stable society for everyone (f. ex. nordic countries/Canada) and other similiar considerations that people who lack the reason and foresight would protest heavily upon.

4) You uphold 3) with the principles to cause as little misery to ANYONE in the process as possible, including the criminal.

5) You strive to cause as few irreversible effects as possible.

There. Anyone's pain over the loss of a relative is no factor in this. Human emotion has been reduced to manageable levels.

That is a pretty long post for you to start off saying you can remove human emotions completely, and then end with how they can be reduced to manageable levels.

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Yeah, no, not all criminals do things for "reasons" that are understandable. I've read plenty of cases with people who killed family members without being able to explain why.

What reason does a rapist have to commit his crimes besides pure malice?

Chemical imbalance in the brain? Mental illness? Alcohol/drugs?

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Your definition of malice is quite weird. You don't have to hold malice towards the victim personally, it's an act of malice. Under what definition is it not an act of malice to satisfy your own urges at the expense and injury of another?

Mainly because acting to satisfy an urge isn't malicious, even if the outcome is violent or deadly.

In order for something to be malicious, by definition, there has to be malice towards the victim.

I think maybe your definition is off.

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No, it is not. You can't call a lack of remorse or empathy a mental illness on its own.


Most criminals are not, yet again, mentally ill. Criminality is always a choice unless mentally ill, which most aren't.

For a 23 year old, you sure are an expert on criminal psychology.

(and by that, I mean you aren't)


I find it hilarious when people probably still in university or living at home with their parents (i don't know your situation but I know you're only 23) pretend to be such experts on complex subjects like this. You know why the criminals commit crimes, the best sentencing practices, how to avoid recitivism, how much money their food should cost, how many criminals are mentally ill in any way, the best ways to avoid becoming a criminal, and a host of other crime/punishment related "facts".

I'm shocked that Sweden hasn't asked you to head up their department of corrections or whatever you guys call it over there, to be honest.

[Khoranth]

But it does exist. There are prisons where they rehabilitate people..
A few pages earlier I provided a link to a college program, where inmates in fact graduate and get degrees.
For which I suspect, makes these graduates more productive and accomplished than some who vow for harsh sentences or even execution.

I did not mean it does not exist, I meant that their is no massive public outcry for more prison rehabilitation. I think the public, mostly, just wants prisoners kept away from them. Rehabilitation is fine, but is not the main goal of US prisons.