When to combat?

[TomGreen]

So after getting the AoC trinket, is there something else to shoot for before making the change to combat? Haste plateau or whatever? I've got 2 of the flex version of the claw from protectors both upgraded sitting in the bags.

Assassination deeps is not bad but really boring...

[Elbrondane]

Not really. AoC just makes combat strong. The thing you will find is with low haste levels, outside of AR/SB will be boring. As long as your ilvl is around flex ilvl and you have AoC and flex+ weaps, you should be fine.

[Deleted]

when does combat become better than the other specs? my char http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...randa/advanced. would a slow waepon say lfr status be ungh for me to do better as combat?

[Squirl]

You usually need mostly normal or better gear, including a 2.6 MH and AoC. However, it looks like you only do LFR on that character, so play whatever you want because you're better off enjoying LFR than pushing slightly higher numbers.

[Fistmeister]

AoC trinket of Sha of Pride and a good Main Hand is really all you need for it to perform well.

[Flukz]

AoC trinket of Sha of Pride and a good Main Hand is really all you need for it to perform well.

This. Those are the two most important things for Combat.

[jtstormrage]

The answer, subject to whether your guild needs you to play a particular spec for a particular fight, is:

If:

- you have the same or better slow weapon(s) as dagger(s), and
- Assurance of Consequence (any grade), and
- you are equally skilled at playing Combat as other specs,

then play Combat.

Otherwise, play Subtlety unless:

- you are not skilled at playing Subtlety, or
- your guild requires sustained AOE or damage during execute phases,

in which case play Assassination.

[pkm]

Im going with combat at the moment but was wondering what offspec is best to pair with it? I wont really be reforging and regemming everytime just sticking with combat stats. I do have daggers and swords to switch with though.

[Squirl]

Im going with combat at the moment but was wondering what offspec is best to pair with it? I wont really be reforging and regemming everytime just sticking with combat stats. I do have daggers and swords to switch with though.

I play agi-gemmed Combat and Subt. The agi gems are a much smaller loss for Combat (<1%) than haste gems are for Subt, and I prefer the agi-gemmed playstyle anyways.

You should reforge when you swap if any of your weapons have hit or expertise. I keep a text file with all my Reforgerade strings for various specs/activities, so swapping reforges take about 5 seconds and a few hundred gold.

Also, you never really have to swap away from Combat. I only do because I love playing Subtlety. You may see minor gains over Combat on IJ (marginal), Thok (Combat blows during fixate phase), and Blackfuse (much higher belt damage, but belts are such a non-issue after the nerfs).

You could have a Mut OS too, but the stat priorities are very different. Regardless, it's not better than Combat or Subt at high gear levels on any fight.

[Artorius]

Well, as Squirl said you can play whatever spec regardless of what you gem, I've been playing subtlety with haste gems and sincerely it works anyway.

Combat gets less dependent on haste gems as your gear goes higher, at his ilvl I'd probably gem straight agi too if I could stay near 50% haste levels... At yours, you'll probably be better going haste, but it's not a big deal, less than 1% difference in most cases =)

- - - Updated - - -

Well, as Squirl said you can play whatever spec regardless of what you gem, I've been playing subtlety with haste gems and sincerely it works anyway.

Combat gets less dependent on haste gems as your gear goes higher, at his ilvl I'd probably gem straight agi too if I could stay near 50% haste levels... At yours, you'll probably be better going haste, but it's not a big deal, less than 1% difference in most cases =)

[Zale]

All other things equal, Combat will begin to outshine Assassination single-target around 560 Ilvl.

[SinAscendant]

I'm kind of curious... why are people here saying to play Sub? Sub is awful, unless I've missed something lately, but even raidbot says average DPS for 10N Sub is 217k. Hell even on Heroic they don't break 300k, and my Assassin rogue is consistently 285k+ on non-swap fights. And according to World of Logs I'm within 10-15% of rank on every other fight as well. Almost full Normal gear, missing Reg AoC. So I can't really see why people are recommending Sub.

[Deleted]

I would start playing combat at around 560 IL, i would assume you would have the sha of pride trinket by then.

[Kael]

even raidbot says average DPS for 10N Sub is 217k. Hell even on Heroic they don't break 300k, and my Assassin rogue is consistently 285k+ on non-swap fights.

This is primarily a choice performance bias. Almost no one plays sub regularly, excepting die-hard sub fans (from PvP players to high-end heroic), so your only option for parses are people playing it more poorly on average than other specs (especially on normal) and with fewer parses overall. If you look at the top end of a fight worth comparing -- 25H Juggernaut, for example -- the #s make a bit more sense. Assassination tops out at ~476k, where Sub goes up to 508k. Admittedly, that's harder to achieve on sub; the skill floor and cap are higher than for assassination (even in PvE). For anyone dedicated, however, Sub should come in close to combat single target (depending on gear, kill time), and above assassination.

[SinAscendant]

This is primarily a choice performance bias. Almost no one plays sub regularly, excepting die-hard sub fans (from PvP players to high-end heroic), so your only option for parses are people playing it more poorly on average than other specs (especially on normal) and with fewer parses overall. If you look at the top end of a fight worth comparing -- 25H Juggernaut, for example -- the #s make a bit more sense. Assassination tops out at ~476k, where Sub goes up to 508k. Admittedly, that's harder to achieve on sub; the skill floor and cap are higher than for assassination (even in PvE). For anyone dedicated, however, Sub should come in close to combat single target (depending on gear, kill time), and above assassination.

Really? Would you mind providing a link to where you're seeing this? Because World of Logs is showing top parses for Assassin and Sub both between 480-510k, sub having two outliers (of Asian players) at 540 and 550k. And Combat top parse is coming in at 680k top (though thats likely a fluke) but it still has 17 players over 550k.

Besides that, if you look at the top PvE sub rogues in the world (for example on Wowheroes) 3/5 have Assassin as their secondary spec, or it is their primary and Sub secondary. Shouldn't that say something?

In any case, it depends more on player skill than anything else. I mean personally I'm only 1/14H on my rogue as my raid lead quit after norms, but I can pull higher dps than simmed does on singletarget fights. I'm sure good players at higher levels can do even better than me.

[Kael]

IJ top logs for each spec: Assassination, Combat, Sub. Logs from Asia are irrelevant; they're at a higher ilevel and enemy HP than we are. Logs that last 30 seconds are broken logs and not real fight attempts.

As for the top players in the world, they're doing whatever they want atm. Progress ended for them months ago, and playing the ideal progression spec no longer matters.

[Artorius]

Since most top guild are already using warcraftlogs, you might want to look there also =)

[SinAscendant]

IJ top logs for each spec: Assassination, Combat, Sub. Logs from Asia are irrelevant; they're at a higher ilevel and enemy HP than we are. Logs that last 30 seconds are broken logs and not real fight attempts.

As for the top players in the world, they're doing whatever they want atm. Progress ended for them months ago, and playing the ideal progression spec no longer matters.

Yet you're using the top players as reference for which spec is better...?

And if you look at 10H the top Assassination is doing 536k, and top Sub is 482k. I'm pretty sure there's more 10-man groups than there are 25-man, as well.

All I'm saying is the data shows it's POSSIBLE to reach pretty much the same numbers with both Assassin and Sub. The difference is not going to be based on which spec you choose but your skill with that spec. Would love to give roic numbers but my guild isn't good enough to do roics besides Norushen. Did rank on Normal today though, two ranks above someone who's 570. I'm 565. Anecdotal, obviously, but like I said, skill > gear or spec.

I see both rogues in your guild are Assassin as well, do they not listen to your advice?

[Squirl]

And if you look at 10H the top Assassination is doing 536k, and top Sub is 482k. I'm pretty sure there's more 10-man groups than there are 25-man, as well.

Logs that last 30 seconds are broken logs and not real fight attempts.

Look at the valid logs. Assassination is garbage.

[Kael]

I see both rogues in your guild are Assassin as well, do they not listen to your advice?

Please don't try to make things personal. Sheep is not a top-end guild, and people frequently play what they want for encounters regardless of what's best, although it's sometimes frustrating. Yes, assassination DOES have drawbacks, even on Garrosh, where it's widely considered its most competitive (for the extended execute in the fight) -- I'm on siege engineers as well as both rogues. Conversations happen, but we neither always agree, nor does agreement necessarily lead to change. We're also not 14/14H yet, for the above reasons and more, which means that in most cases, you shouldn't draw conclusions from our raid. We've had some of the near-top-spec performing players in EU/US at various points in time, but most have either relaxed to a more casual perspective or moved on.

Edit: to note, I'm not playing my rogue as my main anymore (/gasp; but it was a T14 change when warlocks were far too OP and insanely fun while my rogue was still primarily in pre-raid gear and sobbing), but that hardly means I'm not keeping up with current theory and practice. If you'd question my judgment, do so based on my responses, not my potential qualifications.

As for the logs, Squirl's already responded. It's 482k vs. 423k -- that's a HUGE difference, much larger than it is on 25H.


Also yes, for evaluation, Warcraftlogs is quickly becoming a better parsing tool imho. If you want to look deeper, or for logs of the top players, you can't stick to WoLogs full time. This conversation, however, has gone really far off topic from when combat is the top spec available (or tied with Sub, and generally more versatile).