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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post

    Stalling will always be a dps loss, some classes can do it "better" but lose dps by not having procs etc for it (eg. destro locks usually burst all embers when procs are up, when they do this without them, its a dps)
    While a fury Warrior understands that he is sacrificing some short-term dps by delaying his CS window, he has ways to dump rage (if he is in danger of capping) *outside* of CS. That to me is a better mechanic (ie: more efficient and more interesting) for trading off current dps for future dps.
    Moonkin have no viable way to efficiently make that tradeoff - and yes I am saying that casting a non-energy generating nuke outside of eclipse is "not viable". If you look at the dps difference between a non-energy generating nuke outside of eclipse with no-NG and an eclipsed nuke with NG *and then* reflect the dps loss of extending your eclipse cycles by stalling, the difference is pretty atrocious and what I would consider "not viable".

    Yes stalling for more than one cast *may* work in one fight - HM Garrosh right before the intermission but if that is the only example over an entire expansion, I would again call it not viable.

    The major difference between all the classes that you listed is that every single one of them has *control* over when they use their resources for high damage - and they can control it to within a fraction of a second. Not saying that all classes need to be homogenized but I am curious why asking for more control is perceived as a bad thing? It seems that many posters in here are jumping on the "ALL CHANGE IS BAD" bandwagon.

  2. #42
    I'd go into a fullfledged long response going every dps class/spec, but it's a bit of a waste of time.

    In short, lappee, the difference is that some classes truly stall (or cap, not increasing anymore) their resources while waiting for the time when burst is needed. Warriors (to a large degree), Rogues (as far as I know) and Moonkins (fully so).

    Others can continue their rotation, not losing any of their normal rotation dps, while still being near their resource cap and so ready to unleash it when the burst is needed. Destro warlocks, spriests are best examples. Monks a bit less so, but still workable.


    Generally, older classes&specs have not all had it worked into their mechanics yet. Those revamped in Cata or MoP did. Again, Warlock and Spriest.

    Realistically, in raid scenarios, it's not a huge issue. We lose some dps to provide it when it matters. Nearly all dpsers do it with their cooldowns.

  3. #43
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    ...
    As i said before, rage should be considered more as mana instead of eclipse energy. You also need to understand that most of those classes have it in their rotation to be near capped resource and dumb it with procs etc. But if you like that system better, then perhaps you should play that class, just saying.

    Stalling works for any fight. We have only one proper example over the last tiers because there has been NO need to stall the dps. Theres no fights like Ragnaros in firelands where you had to stall for every add wave etc.

    Change can be good, but it can also be very, very bad. And i just found your suggestions bad. We have a way to stall our dps, but we could use a little less penalty for it.
    Ideas like "Casting the wrong spell while out of eclipse will increase nature's graces time by the cast time of that wrong spell" would make stalling less pain in the ass but still a major dps loss (as it imo should be)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    ...
    I fail to see how shadow priests have that mechanic. Not using DP with 3 shadow orbs is a major dps loss, Warlocks have it "better" but even they have a downside to that gameplay which i already explained - and its pretty major.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    We have a way to stall our dps, but we could use a little less penalty for it.
    Then you and I agree - we both agree that it would be a benefit to moonkin for the dev's to change it in a way to be penalized less for trying to control our dps more.

    That's exactly what I am talking about - and I'm very open to other ideas about possible solutions - like some of the ones proposed in this thread, or your idea of increasing NG uptime by the time of the casted spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by lappee
    But if you like that system better, then perhaps you should play that class, just saying.
    oh and just because I *love* these type of "reroll" comments I will say this:

    I have been maining and raiding as a main spec boomkin since early BC (you know, back when it wasn't a thing?). Telling someone "if you don't like it, just reroll" is an embarrassingly unintelligent response, especially when the poster is proposing reasonable ideas in a forum that was created for discussions like these. Just saying

  5. #45
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    Then you and I agree - we both agree that it would be a benefit to moonkin for the dev's to change it in a way to be penalized less for trying to control our dps more.
    We could use, as in its NOT needed but i wouldnt mind if it is done correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    That's exactly what I am talking about - and I'm very open to other ideas about possible solutions - like some of the ones proposed in this thread, or your idea of increasing NG uptime by the time of the casted spell.
    Personally i havent seen any idea that i have liked so far. Even the NG time increase was just from the top of my head


    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    oh and just because I *love* these type of "reroll" comments I will say this:

    I have been maining and raiding as a main spec boomkin since early BC (you know, back when it wasn't a thing?). Telling someone "if you don't like it, just reroll" is an embarrassingly unintelligent response, especially when the poster is proposing reasonable ideas in a forum that was created for discussions like these. Just saying
    And i've been balance since i started playing the game, aka from vanilla. Doesnt mean anything

    You know whats even more unitelligent than a response about reroll? A whine that others have that, we should have it too.

  6. #46
    It's actually not.

    With as much class homogenization as there's been in past two expansions, other classes having the tools to be good at situations and us not, it could very easily mean us sitting some fights.

    Thankfully, as you've said, there hasn't been encounters like that, where we'd be SO subpar because of our inability to not lose dps while saving up for a burst. Or crappy AoE. And frankly, I don't consider this drawback (and a drawback it is, compared to other classes) to be a very big deal.

    Ra-den comes to mind actually, we arrived on him in 25man before gear upgrades got reintroduced into the game and boy was that a spine-esque burst dps check on the anima orbs. A situation like that, we HAD to have just reached Lunar for every spawn we were killing. And that was strangling boss dps.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Pippilongear View Post
    The major difference between all the classes that you listed is that every single one of them has *control* over when they use their resources for high damage - and they can control it to within a fraction of a second. Not saying that all classes need to be homogenized but I am curious why asking for more control is perceived as a bad thing? It seems that many posters in here are jumping on the "ALL CHANGE IS BAD" bandwagon.
    Your idea is bad and over-complicated when the same thing could be accomplished by adjusting current talents. As I said before Eclipse is the most unique secondary resource in the game and it works just fine without changing it every expansion.

    You can pool 2 treant charges at all times without theoretically losing dps. You can do the 100 other things that were mentioned to "pool resources" and just learn how to save shit for high priority adds. You lose more overall dps than a few classes and less than a few other classes.

    The comparison to a fury warrior is deadset retarded. Their entire rotation is designed around getting the maximum number of attacks off in a CS window and they would have to save CS to have any real impact on anything with HP in the game, thus getting less CS' off throughout the entire fight. Their class mechanics and resource are worse than balance has and aren't comparable.

    Destruction is literally the only exception to the rule and doesn't warrant changing the moonkin resource.

    --Stop beating a dead horse. Tried to be nice before but you continue to argue that something that works fine needs to be fixed and by doing so demonstrating how narrow your scope of the game actually is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    It's actually not.

    With as much class homogenization as there's been in past two expansions, other classes having the tools to be good at situations and us not, it could very easily mean us sitting some fights.

    Thankfully, as you've said, there hasn't been encounters like that, where we'd be SO subpar because of our inability to not lose dps while saving up for a burst. Or crappy AoE. And frankly, I don't consider this drawback (and a drawback it is, compared to other classes) to be a very big deal.

    Ra-den comes to mind actually, we arrived on him in 25man before gear upgrades got reintroduced into the game and boy was that a spine-esque burst dps check on the anima orbs. A situation like that, we HAD to have just reached Lunar for every spawn we were killing. And that was strangling boss dps.
    I'm just going to stop arguing with people that have no experience or any idea what they're talking about. Balance kept up with shadow on anima orbs that fight if you actually knew what you were doing. Destro locks barely beat w/ tricks (affi might have had a soul swap bug atm cant remember). Every class lost boss dps, but if yours was extremely low it was because you're one of those clowns that doesn't track nature's grace. There's also ~3-5 melee tunneling the boss the whole fight. The orb and the stalker damage was more important than Ra-den damage. Expecting someone to be extremely high on a completely different target than they are assigned to is ridiculous. I never heard a rogue complain about being low on Seigecrafter dps because they had to use 3minutes on the belt.

    As mentioned 1000x before every class loses shit; you've just not played the other classes or know how they work, which is self evident. Unless you and Pippy Long Stocking over here can actually use numbers/math to support "other classes lose less than balance druids by pooling resources" no one is going to take you seriously.
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2014-04-11 at 10:27 PM.

  8. #48
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    It's actually not.

    With as much class homogenization as there's been in past two expansions, other classes having the tools to be good at situations and us not, it could very easily mean us sitting some fights.
    It actually is.
    This is the sole reason reroll argument is valid, people want to homogenize classes WAY too much. Diversity used to be awesome thing between the classes. But now, thanks to whiners like in this topic, most of that diversity is gone. Im happy that moonkins are still very, very unique when compared to others and i'd like that to stay

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Thankfully, as you've said, there hasn't been encounters like that, where we'd be SO subpar because of our inability to not lose dps while saving up for a burst. Or crappy AoE. And frankly, I don't consider this drawback (and a drawback it is, compared to other classes) to be a very big deal.
    On high end raiding, people will have to pass bosses where they arent so good. Moonkin shouldnt be an exception to that.
    I do agree on the fact that we have crappy aoe, but on the other hand we have multidotting which i prefer to have over "good" aoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Ra-den comes to mind actually, we arrived on him in 25man before gear upgrades got reintroduced into the game and boy was that a spine-esque burst dps check on the anima orbs. A situation like that, we HAD to have just reached Lunar for every spawn we were killing. And that was strangling boss dps.
    Never had any problems with Ra-den orbs myself, just saved starfall and starsurge for it and it was fine

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    On high end raiding, people will have to pass bosses where they arent so good. Moonkin shouldnt be an exception to that.
    I do agree on the fact that we have crappy aoe, but on the other hand we have multidotting which i prefer to have over "good" aoe
    Apparently for spriest and balance druid our t100 talents are supposed to solve this to a degree. This is because we can't as easily respec without needing a whole set of gear and doing a completely different role/rotation etc. You just can't be good at 2 things at once.

    So while there will be some weak fights, I doubt it will be an issue even less so in WoD. Didn't really have a problem this xpac either but w/e

  10. #50
    I'm just going to stop arguing with people that have no experience or any idea what they're talking about. Balance kept up with shadow on anima orbs that fight if you actually knew what you were doing. Destro locks barely beat w/ tricks (affi might have had a soul swap bug atm cant remember). Every class lost boss dps, but if yours was extremely low it was because you're one of those clowns that doesn't track nature's grace. There's also ~3-5 melee tunneling the boss the whole fight. The orb and the stalker damage was more important than Ra-den damage. Expecting someone to be extremely high on a completely different target than they are assigned to is ridiculous. I never heard a rogue complain about being low on Seigecrafter dps because they had to use 3minutes on the belt.

    As mentioned 1000x before every class loses shit; you've just not played the other classes or know how they work, which is self evident. Unless you and Pippy Long Stocking over here can actually use numbers/math to support "other classes lose less than balance druids by pooling resources" no one is going to take you seriously.
    If you weren't so quick to jump the gun and go on the offense over an imagined insult (what insult?!) you might notice I said nothing about anima orb damage. I am fully aware we were quite good at it, alongside spriests and warlocks. I tire of repeating this, but spriests and locks have a "graded" system of shadow orbs and embers. They can use 1-2 orbs/embers on the boss, while gathering a full resource pool for the orbs. We had to hold our eclipse, lost NG and did lower damage while waiting for the burst.

    We do not need to go into numbers. We're not talking about a numbers issue. We're talking about a mechanical one. The base mechanics of a spec, how they work. Balance has fairly high singletarget dps, we did not do bad on boss damage either. That's why I'm saying numbers have no play in here, specs can be (and are) tuned outside their mechanics.
    If after several repetitions and several posters you do not understand or even try to understand what we're saying and rather start bashing on people and calling them clowns. Saying "pooling" resources for Moonkins testifies that the whole point of what myself and pippilongear have said went over your head and you're responding to what you want to respond to and not what was said.

    Destruction is literally the only exception to the rule and doesn't warrant changing the moonkin resource.
    Several other examples have been brought up, while I responded to the warrior comparison already and agree they're not an example of resource pooling. And then you claim I have no clue about other classes... o.O
    I value my time and am not enjoying arguments in bad faith. You (seem) to have no interest in discussion of comparing class mechanics and would rather start a war. I don't think I've been anything but corteous and am not interested in one and thus withdraw from further discussion with yourself officerlahey.

    @lappee
    It actually is.
    This is the sole reason reroll argument is valid, people want to homogenize classes WAY too much. Diversity used to be awesome thing between the classes. But now, thanks to whiners like in this topic, most of that diversity is gone. Im happy that moonkins are still very, very unique when compared to others and i'd like that to stay
    I should have been more clear. My statement probably did come across I'd like us to be as good as anyone in any given field. I am not a proponent of homogenization and equal tools across all classes&specs.

    I do think it should be possible to have different toolsets that could acomplish a similar result. Blizzard has partly gone in this direction, definitely in singletarget dps area. We all have different spec mechanics that provide similar end result singletarget dps. Less so in multidotting and AoE (chain lightning, Fire and Brimstone), which are encounter specific (Durumu, Siegecrafter mines). I'd much rather be in our shoes than be a spec like elemental shaman who have niche strengths which are only needed on a handful of encounters.

    But more, I think, have they gone in the direction of making encounters "balanced" for different classes. You wanted boomies on Ragnaros for their AoE burst.. but their singletarget was worse than some other, so you had to strike a balance. I think they will continue in this path (more or less sucessfuly).
    Last edited by Gothmog; 2014-04-12 at 09:51 AM.

  11. #51
    I would get rid of Nature Grace.

  12. #52
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    ...
    Im still not sure how shadow priests have it better. With warlocks i agree, but they still have their own issues with it, as i have explained several times.

  13. #53
    Warlocks can hover on 3 embers for as long as they want, until it's burst time. If they want to do absolutely maximum burst, then yes - they will be capped on 4 embers for a second or two.
    Spriests have less freedom as far as time management is concerned. They have to know 24 seconds in advance when the burst is needed in order to not cap on 3 orbs. But if they know 24 seconds ahead, they have an additional 8 seconds of time before that to Devouring Plague with however many orbs they have at the time, thus losing 0 dps.
    With eclipse system, with current gear, what would you say the max amount of waiting would be.. about 30 seconds in worst case scenario? One cast away from Lunar, but the burst is coming in, say, 25 seconds. Just enough to not be able to hope to make it to lunar in time. During those 25 seconds, not only will we not be in eclipse, we will not have NG and we will not be able to use SS.
    If the encounter lets us know ahead of time and allows for multidotting, we're a bit better off, we can halt our energy in solar, multidot and SF, but it's still a major, major hit.

    Personally, I'd like some control over Eclipse. A simple 1min CD to bump you to the next eclipse would do it for me - anticipating a burst, you lose some overall dps by not using it on CD, np! I don't mind paying a bit of price for it, but what we're paying now is pretty atrocious.
    Having to pay attention to timers other than gear/trinket procs. Imagine not having to do that, like WoD promises, with dynamic dot updating. Does it not seem very, very easy?
    Personally I don't mind, the easier the rotation is, the more attention I can pay to the encounter. But we moonkins have a certain reputation to our spec (even if it mostly stems from people not understanding eclipse system) being hard to play. And it was more complex (not in BC, LOL) in WotLK, definitely in Cata (energy on spell landing). Anyone remembers exiting solar on Raggy? you could squeeze in 2 wraths and refresh dots before the first wrath that transitioned you out of solar landed.
    It was an encounter specific gimmick, based on how far boss "center" was and Blizzard obviously didn't like it. But it was -something- to differentiate the better and the worse, the more observant and the less lazerchickens.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    ----
    I already suggested turning sotf into a CD instead of proc on page 1, but go ahead you guys can keep having your circlejerk about how the entire resource needs to be changed and about how much worse you think balance has it worse than others...
    Last edited by Aboubacar; 2014-04-12 at 08:38 PM.

  15. #55
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    ...
    Because using DP with <3 orbs is the same dps as using it with 3, oh wait...
    Also you clearly havent read my posts, so please do so again before coming back with the same stuff all over again.

    We have control over our eclipses, what you want is to negate the dps loss we currently have from controlling it for some specific burst.

    You will still have to pay attention to procs etc in WoD, if you're currently doing it only with dots then you're not playing the spec "correctly"

    I've never heard such thing as moonkin being "hard to play", quite the opposite. No idea where you got that idea in the first place.
    Sure, eclipse energy on spell landing allowed us to play a little differently with each situation but it never made the spec "hard to play"

    Seems to be you have way more to learn about moonkin gameplay in general. No wonder you want to make it easier

  16. #56
    I never said using 1 orb DP is the same dps as using it with 3.
    But if you know when you need to burst something and planning for it, using it with 1/2 orbs in time, so you can gather next 3 for the burst time is a loss of 1 GCD and none of the resources.
    That's not a big cost. Nowhere near what we pay.

    We have control over our eclipses, what you want is to negate the dps loss we currently have from controlling it for some specific burst.
    I didn't word it precisely enough before, you're right, we do have control. To have it however, means we can't use SS or eclipsed main nuke and lose NG. All three is a large hit.
    I've never claimed I want to negate the dps loss. I do want to decrease it however.


    I've never heard such thing as moonkin being "hard to play", quite the opposite. No idea where you got that idea in the first place.
    A general, subjective concensus of opinions of players I interacted with in the game. I don't consider it hard to play, especially not in MoP. But lets please not get into the whole "h2p, u must be noob and my dick is bigger" discussion. Like the offhand comment of
    Seems to be you have way more to learn about moonkin gameplay in general. No wonder you want to make it easier.
    I actually did go back and reread your 2-line post about warlocks' embers.
    That's what I responded to. And yes, I am repeating what I'm saying, because I don't get the feedback from you that you get my point. I don't know whether I'm being unclear, not illustrative enough or your ego is preventing you from budging from your stance on the matter.

    I'm trying to discuss, and argue.
    I'm not being sarcastic, I'm not being offensive and I don't mean to provoke. But no matter what I've typed so far, I seem to get hostility and passive-agressive as an answer. Why is there a need for it? what does it acomplish, do we gain new revelations out of it? Is it a better, clearer, more efficient way of communicating?
    I'm actually asking these questions, and I've a suspicion I will not get an answer to them.


    Instead, I'll get an reply that completely ignores the spirit of my post, picks it apart to find the most malleable statement, twist it until it's suitable as a barb and use it to call me a noob.
    Please... can we keep it civil and argue&discuss the argument and not descend to personal attacks and more or less veiled insults?

  17. #57
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I never said using 1 orb DP is the same dps as using it with 3.
    But if you know when you need to burst something and planning for it, using it with 1/2 orbs in time, so you can gather next 3 for the burst time is a loss of 1 GCD and none of the resources.
    That's not a big cost. Nowhere near what we pay.
    It is quite a big cost, and with that timeframe moonkins can predict and plan alot too.
    and you did say that they wouldnt lose any dps by using that dp with less than 3 orbs, which is quite the opposite to the fact.

    also you need to take in count that usually the dps right before the phase is NOT important at all, in most cases people stop dpsing totally just before the phase change etc where you need that burst to get there with proper timer (eg garrosh p3)



    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I didn't word it precisely enough before, you're right, we do have control. To have it however, means we can't use SS or eclipsed main nuke and lose NG. All three is a large hit.
    I've never claimed I want to negate the dps loss. I do want to decrease it however.
    We can use SS, just not to the point where it would take us to next eclipse, its ones own fault if they cant control the resource properly.
    We wouldnt be using eclipsed main nuke anyway, since we're out of eclipse at that point. but yes, theres a difference between wrath and starfire dps. Then again, we'd be spamming uneclipsed starfires which is better than wraths.
    NG is the only thing thats bothers me personally. (just because i hate the long ass cast time for that one spell we need to cast)




    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    A general, subjective concensus of opinions of players I interacted with in the game.
    Which is quite the opposite of what i've faced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I actually did go back and reread your 2-line post about warlocks' embers.
    That's what I responded to. And yes, I am repeating what I'm saying, because I don't get the feedback from you that you get my point. I don't know whether I'm being unclear, not illustrative enough or your ego is preventing you from budging from your stance on the matter.
    Then you havent read the right post, or you just dont understand the point in it. Either way warlocks have their own issues with the system which results in a "massive" dps loss


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I'm trying to discuss, and argue.
    I'm not being sarcastic, I'm not being offensive and I don't mean to provoke. But no matter what I've typed so far, I seem to get hostility and passive-agressive as an answer. Why is there a need for it? what does it acomplish, do we gain new revelations out of it? Is it a better, clearer, more efficient way of communicating?
    I'm actually asking these questions, and I've a suspicion I will not get an answer to them.
    Theres no need for it, but we've explained everythign several times yet you come back again and again and again with the same stuff. And that my friend provokes me personally.

    Not to even mention (again) the part where you apparently dont read all the post properly enough to understand them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Instead, I'll get an reply that completely ignores the spirit of my post, picks it apart to find the most malleable statement, twist it until it's suitable as a barb and use it to call me a noob.
    Please... can we keep it civil and argue&discuss the argument and not descend to personal attacks and more or less veiled insults?
    1) You've ignored plenty of my posts
    2) Never called you a noob
    3) Sure we can keep it civil, as long as you are able to read the posts. And if you dont understand what the posts say, then just ask instead of posting the same stuff all over again

  18. #58
    Perhaps I'm missing something regarding spriests, I'll admit I've only played one as an offspec in non raiding (LFR/flex doesn't count as raiding in my book) environment.
    Wouldn't not overcapping on orbs at any time and using mindblast on cd be a 0 dps loss from a resource point of view?
    DPing with 1 or 2 orb certainly does less damage than with 3, but if it puts you in the right timeframe with 3 newly gathered, all it costs is that 1 global to apply it.
    Since you have pointed out that I dont, I will ask directly - am I missing something here?

    For the sake of the argument I would make it a base assumption that overall dps is important. Otherwise, there's no drawback to us stopping eclipse swinging.

    Fair enough, we differ in what we hear from players regarding our spec. I will repeat that I do believe that some people's belief we're hard to play stems from not grasping the eclipse system fully. If they played a moonkin, it would only take them a few minutes to understand it. Certainly nothing like playing a feral.


    I have gone back (again) and read all of your posts. At the risk of wall of text, I'll quote it here for better transparency.
    the difference is that if you sit on 4 embers, you'll potentially lose some of them. Sure normally you wouldnt, just like no class would. but if ya need the max burst, then you need to stall = dps loss. Destro locks just lose less dps from it (but more from having no procs with them)
    I cant think of any class that has the option you want moonkins to have. Every class can stall their burst, none will get that burst to be greater than their normal rotation burst by stalling it.
    I never said the two resources would be the same. Rage/energy are the equivalent of mana.
    Moonkins need to stall eclipse and starfall for max on demand damage.
    Warriors need to stall abilities, such as colossus smash, for max on demand damage
    Rogues need to stall combo points for max on demand damage
    Monks need to stall tigereye brew and chi for max on demand damage
    Priests need to stall shadow orbs for max on demand damage
    and the list continues with every class.

    Stalling will always be a dps loss, some classes can do it "better" but lose dps by not having procs etc for it (eg. destro locks usually burst all embers when procs are up, when they do this without them, its a dps)

    I fail to see how shadow priests have that mechanic. Not using DP with 3 shadow orbs is a major dps loss, Warlocks have it "better" but even they have a downside to that gameplay which i already explained - and its pretty major.
    officerlahey has explained destro gameplay with embers very well. You've responded with the first post and it is the only one that covers warlocks. If they sit on 4 embers for any extended period of time, then they're not doing it optimally.

    You're right about no class getting a burst greater than their normal rotation - but I've never advocated that for us.

    Rage/Energy equivalent of mana claim.. sorry, but that's Burning Crusade. Mana hasn't been a meaningful resource for most casters for years now and blizzard has admitted it. That's partly the reason they've introduced new (or secondary) resource systems for some.

    Which of your posts have I ignored that pertain to the discussion at hand? What point of yours have I missed?


    What I actually see, after going through every post in these 3 pages, is several people (pippilongear, Kekkeri, Ereshmilor, officerlahey) explaining how pool resource based specs don't lose a significant amount of dps by storing them UP to their cap for burst time.


    Not calling me a noob is a pretty blatant lie. For no (apparent to me) good reason you claim I've "way more to learn about moonkin gameplay in general" and "no wonder you want to make it easier". Phrase it however you want, those two claims are #1 I don't know enough moonkin gameplay (definition of newbie) and #2 I want to make it easier - implying it's too hard for me (definition of noob as an unskilled player). You've covered the 2 most common definitions of noob.



    I claim destro warlocks' cost is 1-2 seconds of sitting at 4 embers.
    I claim spriests' cost is 1 GCD.
    I claim WW monks lose none of their normal rotational damage to provide burst (I'll go into details how, if asked).
    I have proposed a hypothetical worst case scenario for moonkins stalling/halting (not pooling) their eclipse, waiting for the burst a few posts above. I have proposed we can mitigate it - what you covered with "plan alot", we're likely thinking of the similar measures. It does help, but it's putting a fire out with a a garden hose. I wouldn't mind it being more effective.

    There has not been a refutal or counter argument to these (explained in my previous posts) claims anywhere in this thread.

  19. #59
    Dreadlord lappee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Perhaps I'm missing something regarding spriests, I'll admit I've only played one as an offspec in non raiding (LFR/flex doesn't count as raiding in my book) environment.
    Wouldn't not overcapping on orbs at any time and using mindblast on cd be a 0 dps loss from a resource point of view?
    DPing with 1 or 2 orb certainly does less damage than with 3, but if it puts you in the right timeframe with 3 newly gathered, all it costs is that 1 global to apply it.
    Since you have pointed out that I dont, I will ask directly - am I missing something here?
    It is the best way to handle the situation yes (probably? not sure of the numbers), but its not the best dps a shadow priests can do. In short, stalling for spriests is a (major) dps loss. Even more so if theres no set timer (aka based on boss % etc)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    For the sake of the argument I would make it a base assumption that overall dps is important. Otherwise, there's no drawback to us stopping eclipse swinging.
    That argument in theory is valid, but less so in practice. Guilds need to get to phase X, which requires max dps. At first people cant stall at all (because getting used to the fight etc) but in time they can, and thats when it doesnt really matter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Fair enough, we differ in what we hear from players regarding our spec. I will repeat that I do believe that some people's belief we're hard to play stems from not grasping the eclipse system fully. If they played a moonkin, it would only take them a few minutes to understand it. Certainly nothing like playing a feral.
    Possibly, since i mainly talk with other moonkins.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I have gone back (again) and read all of your posts. At the risk of wall of text, I'll quote it here for better transparency.

    officerlahey has explained destro gameplay with embers very well. You've responded with the first post and it is the only one that covers warlocks. If they sit on 4 embers for any extended period of time, then they're not doing it optimally.
    Even on the text you quote, i say that theres a downside for warlocks which i've explained before.
    But lets say it again since you cant seem to find it. Destro warlocks play with ~max embers nearly all the time. Only when they get procs they use all of them.
    Now imagine a situation where they'd have to use their burst without those procs. Its pretty major dps loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Rage/Energy equivalent of mana claim.. sorry, but that's Burning Crusade. Mana hasn't been a meaningful resource for most casters for years now and blizzard has admitted it. That's partly the reason they've introduced new (or secondary) resource systems for some.
    Energy isnt meaningful resource either, thats why rogues have combo points and monks have Chi. Rage is the only "~meaningful" primary resource left in the game, but even its part on warrior dps has been diminished to nearly nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Which of your posts have I ignored that pertain to the discussion at hand? What point of yours have I missed?
    About the warlocks gameplay, as i said in the post i told you about ignoring it (apparently you ignored that part too)



    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    What I actually see, after going through every post in these 3 pages, is several people (pippilongear, Kekkeri, Ereshmilor, officerlahey) explaining how pool resource based specs don't lose a significant amount of dps by storing them UP to their cap for burst time.
    and i've explained how they do lose that significant amount of dps. It isnt as much as druids, but it is significant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    Not calling me a noob is a pretty blatant lie. For no (apparent to me) good reason you claim I've "way more to learn about moonkin gameplay in general" and "no wonder you want to make it easier". Phrase it however you want, those two claims are #1 I don't know enough moonkin gameplay (definition of newbie) and #2 I want to make it easier - implying it's too hard for me (definition of noob as an unskilled player). You've covered the 2 most common definitions of noob.
    You can understand it anyway you want. Im just telling you that theres more to moonkin gameplay than what you seem to know. Also the suggestions here would make druid easier to play, and you are defeding said suggestions thus my comment about you wanting to make it easier. Yes, the two comments are tied together but i never called you a noob.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I claim destro warlocks' cost is 1-2 seconds of sitting at 4 embers.
    I claim spriests' cost is 1 GCD.
    I claim WW monks lose none of their normal rotational damage to provide burst (I'll go into details how, if asked).
    And i claim that all of these lose more dps than what you're suggesting and that has been explained before in the thread already.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    I have proposed a hypothetical worst case scenario for moonkins stalling/halting (not pooling) their eclipse, waiting for the burst a few posts above. I have proposed we can mitigate it - what you covered with "plan alot", we're likely thinking of the similar measures. It does help, but it's putting a fire out with a a garden hose. I wouldn't mind it being more effective.
    Even in your "worst case scenario" you had "facts" proven to be false.

    Moonkins have "harder" time to stall for burst, but its totally viable and people have been doing it without a problem (i cant recall anything myself)




    Quote Originally Posted by Gothmog View Post
    There has not been a refutal or counter argument to these (explained in my previous posts) claims anywhere in this thread.
    And this is why i said you're ignoring or not understanding the posts

  20. #60
    You're fond of telling me I'm repeating myself - and I was. But you're also fond of repeatedly making blank statements without any reasoning to support them - like insisting it's a major dps loss for spriests to plan their burst ahead. I've given a scenario, you agree it's likely the best they can do. I claim it's one GCD less than perfect rotational dps. You claim it's a major dps loss. Please elaborate on that statement.

    That argument in theory is valid, but less so in practice. Guilds need to get to phase X, which requires max dps. At first people cant stall at all (because getting used to the fight etc) but in time they can, and thats when it doesnt really matter.
    We are talking about a theoretical scenario. Else we'd just go case-by-case over every encounter where it's wanted/needed that we hoard burst. I suppose that would be a way of approaching it as well, but IMO a maximum negative impact scenario is better to take as basis. Where overall dps matters very much and 10-20 second burst requirements are high enough to warrant every range dps hoarding everything possible for it. Gear level assumed t be just barely sufficient. Overgearing encounters obviously reduces the need to pool resources for everyone, pointless to consider. Suggestions welcome of course.
    Even on the text you quote, i say that theres a downside for warlocks which i've explained before.
    But lets say it again since you cant seem to find it. Destro warlocks play with ~max embers nearly all the time. Only when they get procs they use all of them.
    Perhaps I can't seem to find it because I've quoted all you've ever said about warlocks in this thread are exactly those 2 lines in my previous post. Repeatedly asking for my reading comprehension of a non-existent text will not produce results.
    the difference is that if you sit on 4 embers, you'll potentially lose some of them. Sure normally you wouldnt, just like no class would. but if ya need the max burst, then you need to stall = dps loss. Destro locks just lose less dps from it (but more from having no procs with them)
    Let me say it again. This is the only thing you've explained about warlocks in this entire thread.
    But let's play with the argument at hand - By your own admission, warlocks play with near max embers all the time. From my experience, they play with 2-3 embers. But your claim is water on my mill - as they play with 3 embers, ALL it costs them to unload them all into a burst target anytime they please with no preparation, no fore warning needed is gear procs. Same as every single other spec in the game. That is hands down an enormous advantage with fuckall drawbacks.
    Am I missing something here?

    Energy isnt meaningful resource either, thats why rogues have combo points and monks have Chi. Rage is the only "~meaningful" primary resource left in the game, but even its part on warrior dps has been diminished to nearly nothing.
    Please... energy not meaningful.. What are you even saying man. That Haste is a completely meaningless stat for all rogue specs, ferals, monks.
    This is exactly the part where I could lay into you with a vengeance, because you did just completely dig a grave for yourself with that statement. But I wont, because it achieves nothing but animosity and derails the discussion. I only bring it up to demonstrate.

    And i claim that all of these lose more dps than what you're suggesting and that has been explained before in the thread already.
    I have had it with you referencing non existent explanations of exactly HOW your statements are backed up. I have spent a good deal of time elaborating on my claims, offering support for them. All you're replying with is saying "it's been explained already". Quote those explanations.
    This has been going on for the past 3-4 posts between us. If you don't provide quotes or explanations yourself, I think we're done here. You'll think me incompetent for not finding them in past 3 pages. I'll think you an obstinate person, unwilling to budge or put any effort into the argument. And that'll be the end of it.

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