Finland drafting legislation to ban cosmetic and religious circumcision.

[Destruktion]

There are plenty of decisions in which, due to consent laws, the parents judegement trumps the child. Such as getting tattoo's, getting breast enhancements, ect. the child cant just up and get them if the parents refuse.

The child can always get them when they are old enough. A child can not realistically get a circumcision reversed. If circumcision were easily reversable, this wouldn't really be a contentious issue.

[Wells]

How many times must I say that there is risk?
http://www.examiner.com/article/new-...auto-accidents

And a cultural standard does not require to be respected when it violates basic rights, any body modification requires the consent of the person.
You are not allowed to do piercings and other body modifications without parental consent or being a legal adult, but a child cannot give consent and it is NOT up to the parents to decide if a child should undergo body modification or not.

Again, people have rights, ideas dont.

100 dead a year without even accounting for unsafe practices is not significant, especially when they're only estimates.

[Kurioxan]

Agreed.

This thread, in itself, is strange in conversation and context since my primary argument against circumcision is that it eliminates a part of a male erogenous zone that makes sex and masterbation better.

Taking it further is me unintentionally going into Tradewind territory.

Not really, the main concern is about ethics.
And I cannot believe the sheer hypocrisy of people who generally are vocal about self determination and bodily autonomy and yet seek to deny the exact same basis of right to others.

[THE Bigzoman]

Masturbation? Maybe. But you'd have a hard sell on that point alone. (And hey, when there's a will, there's a way...)

But there have been reputable studies that find no difference in sexual performance at all.

For masturbation, that's not a hard point to sell.

The foreskin on the penis is very erogenous for the most part. Guys and stroke it for arousal and erection. It's also very durable in the sense that you can do it for a extended period of time without it getting irritated.

So even a cut of any part of that foreskin diminishes the utility (satisfaction) that one would get from either stroking it himself, or his sexual partner doing it.

[Wells]

The child can always get them when they are old enough. A child can not realistically get a circumcision reversed. If circumcision were easily reversable, this wouldn't really be a contentious issue.

You can't really undo anything your parents did to you when they were raising you.

[Deleted]

For masturbation, that's not a hard point to sell.

The foreskin on the penis is durable for the most part. Guys and stroke it for arousal and erection. It's also very durable in the sense that you can do it for a extended period of time without it getting irritated.

So even a cut of any part of that foreskin diminishes the utility (satisfaction) that one would get from either stroking it himself, or his sexual partner doing it.

I've known someone to get a small tear/crack in their foreskin when that person was masturbating a lot. o.o

[Kurioxan]

100 dead a year without even accounting for unsafe practices is not significant, especially when they're only estimates.

100 deaths a year from newborns that would have lived otherwise is not significant when considering a cultural practice that brings no benefits?
I...

[Wells]

100 deaths a year from newborns that would have lived otherwise is not significant when considering a cultural practice that brings no benefits?
I...

Find a way to account for unsafe practices that should not be/are not legal and get back to me.

[Crissi]

The child can always get them when they are old enough. A child can not realistically get a circumcision reversed. If circumcision were easily reversable, this wouldn't really be a contentious issue.

I know. I was just taking issue with the fact that you said children always have bodily autonomy when that isn't true at all. If they disagree, and the issue doesnt have clear cut benefits i can see where theres a murkyness and in that situation Id agree with being cautios and waiting for him to get older, but a kid cant just say "I dont want my arm cut off" if the parent realizes if they dont have the arm cut off, the gangrene will kill him.

[jugzilla]

Well since there is no clear consensus on the attractiveness or lack there of of foreskin
Problem solved, next argument.

Actually so far its 100% that lack of foreskin is more attractive

[Mnevis]

Oh totally, i agree that a man shouldn't base important body decisions on what a woman wants. I think I already said that above too

If only I had a decision to make. When I asked my parents about their reasoning for my circumcision (and told them I was unhappy they'd done it), aesthetics did not come up. But it is a justification you hear a lot.

And yeah, you're allowed your gut reaction to more skin than expected. Just pointing out that no matter how much a guy would like his girl's clit nice and exposed 24/7, he's the hugest asshole in the world if he tells his girl she should get her prepuce removed cause it'd look nicer. That only happens one way in our society.

Actually so far its 100% that lack of foreskin is more attractive

Just go ahead and ignore the rest of the world.

Here, now it's not 100%, even in the USA.

[Kurioxan]

You can't really undo anything your parents did to you when they were raising you.

What are you on about? yes you can.
Humans are not robots, people go against their educations and upbringings far more often than they follow them.
And even if it wasnt possible to undo what your parents, more the reason to prevent parents from doing senseless things.

[Deleted]

Actually so far its 100% that lack of foreskin is more attractive

Not really.

[Vokal]

How many times must I say that there is risk?
http://www.examiner.com/article/new-...auto-accidents

And a cultural standard does not require to be respected when it violates basic rights, any body modification requires the consent of the person.
You are not allowed to do piercings and other body modifications without parental consent or being a legal adult, but a child cannot give consent and it is NOT up to the parents to decide if a child should undergo body modification or not.

Again, people have rights, ideas dont.

I tried telling him that, he got angry.

[THE Bigzoman]

I've known someone to get a small tear/crack in their foreskin when that person was masturbating a lot. o.o

That's because he did it...a lot.

Usually, the burning sensation should be indicative enough for you to slow down a bit.

[Destruktion]

You can't really undo anything your parents did to you when they were raising you.

Nobody is really complaining about any of that, so it's irrelevant.

[Underverse]

Well since there is no clear consensus on the attractiveness or lack there of of foreskin I think we can safety say there is no objective claim that its more or less attractive and therefor no objective claim that its disfiguring and therefor no objective claim its mutilation.

Problem solved, next argument.

Sure, I'm fine with that. But for the sake of completion, if we take the definition of mutilation/disfigurement to be the process of moving something away from the state of perfection, and if we consider the definition of perfection to be a state of completeness, then we can easily say that removing the foreskin is mutilation.

But this semantic argument is silly. We still haven't solve the problem of circumcision as an investment with no returns.

[Kurioxan]

Find a way to account for unsafe practices that should not be/are not legal and get back to me.

That is not a justification, we can account for this one.
It is not the parents choice.

[TirielWoW]

100 deaths a year from newborns that would have lived otherwise is not significant when considering a cultural practice that brings no benefits?
I...

I believe I know what Wells is talking about.

It basically comes down to, "If you're going to circumcise your kid, and you don't want fucked up side effects, do it in a hospital with a medical doctor who actually knows what the fuck he's doing. Oh, and don't let anyone put their mouth on your baby's penis and suck the blood out."

*twitch*

I'm fairly certain well over half of that number came from that particular issue.

[Crissi]

Not really.

I think Im the outlier here. You and this other gal are more into the uncut, i like the cut. So I dont think attractiveness should even be an argument. >.>